»What if Neo wouldn't explode Smith in M1?«

tozy wrote:

In the end of M1, Neo destroys Smith, the agent of the system. And he creates Smith, his personal opponent, his negative.

But isn't the act of destroying him in itself what creates him as his personal opponent. -> Unresolved conflict -> Karma and Dharma, if you will?

apocryphe wrote:

Somehow, all these battles are there to help the Matrix to reach its equilibrium.

Or are they there to help Neo get the point?

If my theory is right (meaning Neo is the tool of the absolute power there) then Neo is in fact fighting his own personal conflicts wich reflect the basic opposition existing in the Matrix : machines don't want to be humans and humans don't want to be used as tools.

Smith is the living personification of that conflict : he does not want these feelings but the system imposed them to him, and he wants to become a pure IA (to live in the machine world).

In some ways, Smith wants to be free as much as Neo.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: In the end of M1, Neo destroys Smith, the agent of the system. And he creates Smith, his personal opponent, his negative. But isn't the act of destroying him in itself what creates him as his personal opponent. -> Unresolved conflict -> Karma and Dharma, if you will?

To avoid misunderstandings:

What is karma?
What is dharma?

Apocryphe wrote:

Smith is probably the reflection of his hate, his ego and his frustration

I'd agree with "ego" -> matrix-explained.com...

Apocryphe wrote:

he's actually interracting with himself

I agree! Throughout the trilogy he is getting to "know thyself", by conquering aspects of what he seems to be, and - in the end - realizing what he is.

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: tozy wrote: In the end of M1, Neo destroys Smith, the agent of the system. And he creates Smith, his personal opponent, his negative. But isn't the act of destroying him in itself what creates him as his personal opponent. -> Unresolved conflict -> Karma and Dharma, if you will? To avoid misunderstandings: What is karma? What is dharma?

What is done. The deeds of a person. Like becoming the One, as an example.

The results the repurcussions of a course. Like the SMITH, for instance. Or ending up in Mobil Ave.

Yes?

intell wrote:

What is done. The deeds of a person. Like becoming the One, as an example.

To what effect?

Quote:

The results the repurcussions of a course. Like the SMITH, for instance. Or ending up in Mobil Ave.

karma or dharma?

tozy wrote:

karma or dharma?

Well that depends on the stage of a situation for something that is a result of something is also a cause of something else. Right?

Err,... again, what is your definition of dharma?...

tozy wrote:

Err,... again, what is your definition of dharma?...

"The results the repurcussions of a course. Like the SMITH, for instance. Or ending up in Mobil Ave.

Yes?"

But I'm a bit confused. I asked:

"But isn't the act of destroying him in itself what creates him as his personal opponent. -> Unresolved conflict -> Karma and Dharma, if you will?"

I fail to see why in the world would my current understanding of a word or concept be relevant to a situation where I'm clearly seeking a better understanding.

intell wrote:

But I'm a bit confused. I asked: "But isn't the act of destroying him in itself what creates him as his personal opponent. -> Unresolved conflict -> Karma and Dharma, if you will?" I fail to see why in the world would my current understanding of a word or concept be relevant to a situation where I'm clearly seeking a better understanding.

If you qualify an unresolved conflict as "karma" and "dharma", I need to understand what you mean by these two words...

Quote:

"But isn't the act of destroying him in itself what creates him as his personal opponent. -> Unresolved conflict -> Karma and Dharma, if you will?"

The destruction of Smith - to me - has nothing to do with an unresolved conflict. Rather I understand it is an inevitable step on the ladder from delusion to truth.
For the lack of better words to express what I mean: The state of Smith is an expression of Neo's "relationship" to Maya.

With that said, and also with the excerpt from part2 of our essay in mind...

intell wrote:

"The results the repurcussions of a course. Like the SMITH, for instance. Or ending up in Mobil Ave. Yes?"

I can't speak for Hinduism, but this would be off from a Buddhist definition of the word Dharma. In Buddhism, Dharma is nearly synonomous with the Christian concept of "The Word." Dharma refers to the scriptures but also the Source (the Alpha and Omega) of those scriptures. It is what the Buddha represents.

Quote:

If you qualify an unresolved conflict as "karma" and "dharma", I need to understand what you mean by these two words...

Thanks. Your post and CaptPostMod's answers my questions for now.

I meant, "Dharma (Sanskrit धर्म) or Dhamma (Pāli) means Natural Law or Reality,"

As I've tried to make clear in my last post, I come from a very different angle. Let me try to point out the differences some more:

Am I right in assuming that you base your understanding on Gina's...

Gina over at 7/7 wrote:

Let’s say, you call yourself Thomas. You work for a software company. You don’t go to work on time. When you’re at work, you just sit in your cubicle staring at your monitor. You’re smarter than most of those idiots at your job. However, they make a lot of money and you live in a closet. To entertain yourself, you stay up all night tracking hackers or you make hacker programs for your buddies. When invited to an S&M club, you dress in normal clothes. All in all, you feel that life sucks…. Your computer life trumps your real life by a thousand fold. Later, some hot chick walks up to you and says she knows you…she knows what you’re all about…she’s like you. She understands your love for computers and perhaps is your superior (you hacked the IRS d-base?) in this computer realm. She knows the answer that you’ve been seeking. Why am I here? What is the matrix?

According to Gina's description of Thomas' life, it sucks. Thomas has more or less given up on it, living passively and just killing his time.
This does result in an accumulation of bad karma, for which he has to make up after death.
Correct?


My interpretation of Thomas' Matrix life is quite different:
I agree with Gina that this life sucks. But - as opposed to your approach - I don't understand Thomas as passively killing time, but rather as actively striving for something hidden beneath the veil of this pointless life, based on an intuitive feeling that there is more to being than meets the eye:

Trinity: I know why you're here, Neo. I know what you've been doing. I know why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night you sit at your computer. You're looking for him. I know, because I was once looking for the same thing.

Morpheus: You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me.


In our essay it says:
According to Hinduism, man is essentially a soul that walks the path of return from the many to the One in a sequence of lives (death -> rebirth).
As we’ve learned above, the ultimate goal of this path, The One, is what we truly are, but unaware of...

tozy wrote:

Am I right in assuming that you base your understanding on Gina's... Gina over at 7/7 wrote: Let’s say, you call yourself Thomas. You work for a software company. You don’t go to work on time. When you’re at work, you just sit in your cubicle staring at your monitor. You’re smarter than most of those idiots at your job. However, they make a lot of money and you live in a closet. To entertain yourself, you stay up all night tracking hackers or you make hacker programs for your buddies. When invited to an S&M club, you dress in normal clothes. All in all, you feel that life sucks…. Your computer life trumps your real life by a thousand fold. Later, some hot chick walks up to you and says she knows you…she knows what you’re all about…she’s like you. She understands your love for computers and perhaps is your superior (you hacked the IRS d-base?) in this computer realm. She knows the answer that you’ve been seeking. Why am I here? What is the matrix?

No. Not exactly. I was focusing on:

Gina Rink wrote:

Thomas is turned into a superhero called the One (Neo), a messianic priest that can fly around and karate chop his foes (remember, this is an adaptation from a comic book). This is an empowering thought, no? But, just as he became powerful so did his enemy, the cop. The bad guy who mistreated him, i.e. forced him to shut up and bugged him. He became a super-villain (his negative, his opposite). Smith exists in the inner battle because Thomas never settled the problem with him before he died (Karma).

One reason I gravitate more to Gina's model is because it takes into account all the computer science, religious symbolism, and apparent real world metaphor in the films and addresses these things while most other models seem to focus on one or two aspects and let the others be. This is not a slight to anyone, just a personal observation.

Right now, (10/19/2006) I look around the board and see an abundance of new posts about what the matrix is and I wonder how and if they all complement and/or contradict each other or how the posters can explain their stance in the light of the other explanations or if in fact, it can be done.

intell wrote:

Smith exists in the inner battle because Thomas never settled the problem with him before he died (Karma).

Sure, but how come?

Because, according to Gina...

Quote:

He thought he was special and didn’t have to follow any rules. He made up his own rules and when the rest of the world didn’t gel with his beliefs, he ended his life early.

Accumulated bad karma.

intell wrote:

One reason I gravitate more to Gina's model is because it takes into account all the computer science, religious symbolism, and apparent real world metaphor in the films and addresses these things while most other models seem to focus on one or two aspects and let the others be. This is not a slight to anyone, just a personal observation.

And I have no intention to change that, only to answer your questions directed at me.


The conclusion, I think, we can draw from this is:
According to 7/7, the return of Smith is the result of accumulated bad karma, as in an unresolved conflict.
Whereas it is my understanding that Smith's return is (inevitable) good karma - even if it can be understood as such only in the end of Revolution - because it signifies an important step towards identifying the deluding force of our manifest existence.

intell wrote:

Right now, (10/19/2006) I look around the board and see an abundance of new posts about what the matrix is and I wonder how and if they all complement and/or contradict each other or how the posters can explain their stance in the light of the other explanations or if in fact, it can be done.

I think some/most go in the same direction, even if on different levels (as for example spiritual vs. technical vs. social). But others certainly contradict each other.
I can't, for example, explain my stance in light of an interpretation that understands the Oracle as a negative, manipulative force.

My overall interpretation changes all the time, but core elements (mainly what Tozy and I put together, for example) remain static. I try to remain open to new ideas, and they don't necessarily have to contradict my views. Rather, they're just different perspectives on the same thing.


"I'm not trying to find all the answers, but understand the questions."
I got that from Caine in Kung Fu. I think of it a lot nowadays when it comes to Matrix.

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: Smith exists in the inner battle because Thomas never settled the problem with him before he died (Karma).

No I didn't. That was Gina Rink.

tozy wrote:

Whereas it is my understanding that Smith's return is (inevitable) good karma - even if it can be understood as such only in the end of Revolution - because it signifies an important step towards identifying the deluding force of our manifest existence.

"From delusion, lead me to truth." Hmm. Yeah, but "...the law of Karma works no more."

Was it Smith's return or Neo's satori about what to really do about it?

______________________________

tozy wrote:

I think some/most go in the same direction, even if on different levels (as for example spiritual vs. technical vs. social). But others certainly contradict each other. I can't, for example, explain my stance in light of an interpretation that understands the Oracle as a negative, manipulative force.

Now, I'm starting to understand where you're coming from.

vanexel711 wrote:

My overall interpretation changes all the time, but core elements (mainly what Tozy and I put together, for example) remain static. I try to remain open to new ideas, and they don't necessarily have to contradict my views. Rather, they're just different perspectives on the same thing. "I'm not trying to find all the answers, but understand the questions."[Kwai-Chang Caine]

Now I'm starting to understand where Van is coming from.

I like that. Now I want to read how the others integrate their thoughts.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Whereas it is my understanding that Smith's return is (inevitable) good karma - even if it can be understood as such only in the end of Revolution - because it signifies an important step towards identifying the deluding force of our manifest existence. "From delusion, lead me to truth." Hmm. Yeah, but "...the law of Karma works no more."

And when he is seen in his immanence and transcendence, then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more.

-> "truth" is when the law of karma works no more...

intell wrote:

Was it Smith's return or Neo's satori about what to really do about it?

Smith's return is an inevitable prerequisite for Neo's Satori moment, since understanding fully the nature of Smith, and accordingly understanding how to end him, is this moment.

"Everything that has a beginning has an end"

Smith is the representation of the finite, separate aspect of Neo's existence, the ego/self -> his existence does separate Neo from realizing his ONEness.

Oracle: Everything that has a beginning has an end. I see the end coming. I see the darkness spreading. I see death

From delusion lead me to truth
From darkness lead me to light
From death lead me to immortality

To overcome Smith (the ego) is the moment of Neo's enlightenment. This is...

when he (The ONE, the Absolute, Neo's (and every person's) underlying spirit reality) is seen in his immanence and transcendence (by Neo) then the ties that have bound the heart are unloosened, the doubts of the mind vanish, and the law of Karma works no more.

To see The ONE means the realisation that you are The ONE (-> know thyself, as opposed to a separate self), as in...

From delusion lead me to truth
From darkness lead me to light
From death lead me to immortality

-> liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth -> the law of karma works no more.