»Can Agents Be Killed?«

I was watching the original Matrix film in order to answer a question about how Neo can wirelessly enter the Matrix. During the subway fight we see Neo bleeding profusely. Did Neo ever have a chance of beating an agent? Most of us would answer "no". You can't really "hurt" a program. Agents can't die.

They can't even bleed---can they?

Oh yes they can.

[img]http://www.matrix-explained.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2669&sort=1&cat=500&page=1[/img]

Matrix Reloaded: Morpheus grabs his sword from the side of the eighteen wheeler and slices Agent Johnson's face. The agent bleeds.

Quote:

The Movie "Predator". Arnold Schwarzeneggar: If it can bleed, we can kill it.

Oh really?

If this is true of the humans, is it true of the agents?

I didn't say "deleted". I didn't say "destroyed". I mean "killed" in the human sense. See if you can mull that one over.

"[They] are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be." - Morpheus


The Agents live in a world of rules. Birth and death are the ultimate rules (everyone who lives was born, and everyone who lives will die). Therefore, they can be killed. It just takes a heck of a lot.

But then, you have to ask, what is death? Are the humans who are shot killed, or just returned to the human Source? Where does Neo come back from when he gets back up?

Evolusionary wrote:

If this is true of the humans, is it true of the agents? I didn't say "deleted". I didn't say "destroyed". I mean "killed" in the human sense. Mull that one over.

Love the Predator quote.
Can the be killed in the human sense, as in, can they bleed to death? I would say no. Mainly because when Trin shoots the agent in the head, in a human sense the agent should be dead, but it is the host body that is dead. The Agent program can only infect the host body when its alive.

Thus, in a human sense, they cannot die. However, as Smith said in M2, Neo destroyed him and the knew the rules (about going back to the source) but didn't. So the agent was 'killed' just not in a human biological sense. Concordently, they are programs and by definition the 'death' of a program is deletion/demolition, which is what Neo did to Smith.

yeah, i said concordently.

Neo hit Smith with everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink. And Smith was bleeding from the lip during Neo's flurry of kicks inside the warehouse during the SuperBurlyBrawl in Revolutions. You can shoot an agent. But they'll simply be reconstituted in another person. If there is more than one way to take them out, what would that mean?

To "kill" something is to first assume the "thing" is living in the first place. Yes I agree that the Agent program is both "intelligent" and "conscious", however, the only manifest their existence through the human hardwired host in the Matrix. Therefore, to "kill" an Agent would be to "delete" the program, which can only be done by the source, or in one particular instance Neo working as an agent of the source at the end of M1. But as we see, the "conscious" program Smith didn't do as instructed and return to the source to be final deleted, he rebeled and thus opened pandora's box that became the new prophesy.

So it is my conclusion, the Agent programs being intangible are indestructable, unless deleted by the source.

if it is real then it can be killed, but if it is an illusion then it cant, if it is false then i cant, if it fake then i cant, and that is what smith and the rest of the agents are, they are not real. so how could something that is not real bleed or die. it cant, the only way to destroy it is to destroy the illusion.

We must destroy David Copperfield

Neo1 wrote:

if it is real then it can be killed, but if it is an illusion then it cant, if it is false then i cant, if it fake then i cant, and that is what smith and the rest of the agents are, they are not real. so how could something that is not real bleed or die. it cant, the only way to destroy it is to destroy the illusion.

Then I return to my original query. We witness both Agent Smith and Agent Johnson bleed. How is this possible?

I suppose Aquin's explaination is the most feasible. Namely, that it is not the agent himself but rather, his host that is being damaged.

Evolusionary wrote:

If there is more than one way to take them out, what would that mean?

I'm not really sure what you're asking. But from the evidence in the movie, the one and only way to "kill" an agent is to delete them.

Evolusionary wrote:

Then I return to my original query. We witness both Agent Smith and Agent Johnson bleed. How is this possible?

The programs exist in a world of rules. Specifically, the programs' RSI's are subject to biological processes. The Merovingian states this very specifically--

Persephone: Where are you going?
Merovingian: Please, ma chérie, I've told you, we are all victims of causality. I drink too much wine, I must take a piss. Cause and effect. Au revoir.

If a program drinking too much wine must piss, then it suggests that programs are subject to the biological rules of the environment they exist in.

If you think about it, needing to piss with-in the Matrix probably is more programmed into the RSI then a side effect of your human biology. You should not be aware of your human body floating in its pod, nor would you ever be drinking true wine (your food and drink would be simple life sustaining stuff and fed to you through tubes, and your waste disposed of the same way presumably). This means that an increased need to piss in reaction to a specific beverage is part of the RSI. Programs exist as RSI's, so if they drink wine, they piss. If they are cut, they bleed.

Morpheus: You think that's air you're breathing now?

I knew it! When I sit in a bathroom stall at work and start going, there is always some damn trucker sitting right friggin next too me ( Next stall ) one acttually said

Trucker: " I'm going to enjoy this "

he sounded just like agent Smith! Makes me wonder..did he inhabit the body of this trucker and, well you know..

CaptPostMod wrote:

If a program drinking too much wine must piss, then it suggests that programs are subject to the biological rules of the environment they exist in.

the best way to desrcibe an agent is that are like a antivirus program beening ran in the backgroung of the matrix OS. they are a program with no fisscal body, so that is why they take over the RSI of humans inside the matrix.

Evolusionary wrote:

I suppose Aquin's explaination is the most feasible. Namely, that it is not the agent himself but rather, his host that is being damaged.

So it is quite possible that if a an agent does take over a body/host then i would be a fair assumtion to say going on what the RSI parameters are: if a human is cut the human will bleed. this is of course not to arouse suppision.

CaptPostMod wrote:

If a program drinking too much wine must piss, then it suggests that programs are subject to the biological rules of the environment they exist in.

but how would this be poosible though, a program would not need a purpose to piss if he or she drank too much wine.

the only reason that the merv said that he was going for a piss was because he was going to get some gobbie.

Neo1 wrote:

But how would this be posible though, a program would not need a purpose to piss if he or she drank too much wine.

Neither would a human. Not inside the Matrix anyway. No one in the Matrix has ever had wine!

Think back to Mouse's conversation with Neo about chicken and tastey wheat. Neither of them had ever had either of those foods. (You can also think of Cypher and his steak.)

People experience an increased need to piss as a result of drinking too much alcohol because that rule is written into the governing of the RSI bodies in the Matrix. But their human bodies are being sustained by bland nutrients and liquid pumped in through tubes. Their waste disposed of through similiar tubes. They do not drink wine, and they do not piss into urinals.

People have no reason to pee after drinking or bleed when cut in the Matrix any more than programs do. They do so because these rules are in place as part of the inherint programming of the system.

If Agents cannot be killed the same way people can, ask yourself this...

What was Neo doing at the end of Revolutions.

There was no long, drawn out fight with Smith at the end of M1. Neo knew he was the One and that he could do anything that he wanted to. He could ben reality as he saw fit and he proved it by literally entering Smith and dismantling him from the inside out. If this was the only way to defeat Smith then he would have done that at the end of Revolutions. That only leaves one of two conclusions.

1.) He couldn't fly into Smith a second time

or...

2.) The more popular theory---that Neo figured he made things worse by flying into Smith the first time and didn't want to take a chance on inadvertantly making Smith stronger by trying it a second time.

But obviously he wanted to stop Smith. So by attacking him he had a game plan. Obvioiusly he was going to destroy him by other means.

What other means?

I think pummelling Smith makes it obvious what means he had in mind.

I think Neo's original vision of what would happen was much more like the end of Path of Neo (a little Hulk vs. Galactus action). Have you seen it? Check it out here--

media.putfile.com...

media.putfile.com...

media.putfile.com...

PoN's ending's been pretty heavily discussed on Matrix-Explained.com because Larry states overtly what the "message" of the films is (or does he, there is a definite possibility his statements are meant entirely as satire, though they make enough sense to sound like truth veiled in satire).

Here's the speech too, 'cause you won't hear half of it when he says it (the audio speeds up as he goes)...

Larry Wachowski (Path of Neo):
____________________________________
"You see at this point in the story Neo stands on the verge of Satori, ready to resolve the paradox of Choice and Choicelessness, of Free Will versus Fate. But that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which occurs after he has abandoned the perspectival nature of Truth, accepting the Totality of Present Consciousness which ultimately allows an evolutionary transition, transcending the Cartesian dilemma through the emergence of the de-limited spirit, which then provides the world with the choice of a third path, the path of Neo, the path of the peace."
____________________________________

I think it's not until Smith says, "Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo" that Neo realizes he's not there to decimate Smith, he's there for another purpose.

When it comes to killing an agent it has less to do with what Neo should do and more with what he can do.

Could Neo kill Smith?

He already did kill Smith in M1. It's just that death is relative. Neo comes back from the dead in M1 himself. Not just the Matrix dead either, because his heart stopped you can hear it flatline. He was physically dead!

But he came back.

Neo has killed Smith. But killing people rarely makes them less powerful. Just look at Jesus.

I kow also, look at Tupac, and 50 cent, and the Game, they were all shot apparntley dead, and came back stronger than before

Ah, so easy to get off the original question and spiral into the binary of deep thought, neh?

I'm sure someone else has said this, but i've still gotta put my 2 cent.s in.

Agents are a program. A sentient program that has the ability to invade, take over, and ENHANCE the natural abilities of a human body. While the human body cannot normally dodge bullets and have uber strength, the Agent's ability to enhance the body allows it to.

Thus, the body still has physical limits. Agents can't be killed by the freedom fighters, only the host body is killed. The Agent (which is in fact a program without a body) will simply find another host close by.

The Agent can bleed because he is in control of a human host. Humans bleed. Thus, Agents bleed.

Now Neo does his own thing with "killing" Agents. Not that he actually "killed" Smith. He severed him from the Source. He set Smith free and he became a rogue program, with his own abilities.

And just to give this issue a touch, the only way to actually "kill" an Agent's program would be deletion from the Source. Of course, most programs would choose exile over deletion, which leads to the blah blah about Merv's guards and others being "freed" Agents.

Finally, its sorta a paradox that while Agents are programs and machines, because of their hosts, they are....

"Only Human."

Wow, an oldy but a goody. Good to see Anubis1441 back

Anubis1441 wrote:

Agents are a program.

So are RSI's.

Anubis1441 wrote:

A sentient program that has the ability to invade, take over, and ENHANCE the natural abilities of a human body. While the human body cannot normally dodge bullets and have uber strength, the Agent's ability to enhance the body allows it to.

I'm a little shakey on this. While Bane's take over does suggest that an Agent could take over a physical human body, mostly in the films we are only shown Agents taking over RSIs. RSIs are only programs, they are not human bodies. They are not breathing real air, they do not really drive to work, and when the human who possesses them wakes up his human eyes do not work because he has never used human eyes before.

Despite this slight difference we essentially are saying the same thing though. The Agents can bleed because people can bleed. They exist in a physical form with-in the Matrix, and therefore are confined to the rules of that form

My point of this thread was to get a closer look into what Neo was doing juxtaposed against what Morpheus, and Neo proved could occur. In agent form it's hard to hit an agent but not impossible. I think it has been proven that they can be touched and injured (if only slightly). However, that was not my reason for asking.

In a previous thread I pointed out that Neo didn't really know why he was there to face off against Smith in Revolutions until the final act where he hears Smith speak Oracle's words. At that moment he realized the only thing way to "beat" Smith was to realize...

Quote:

Smith: I'm the one that beats you!

Before this moment Neo did what he had always done. Upon re-entering the Matrix for the final time Neo immediately began slugging it out with Smith. This was going to be his method for destroying Smith. Neo was not a fool. If anyone understood the inner workings of the Matrix it was Neo. If anyone understood that Smith was a program (and all that entailed) it was Neo. After all he was the world's most infamous hacker. It wasn't like he didn't know of other ways to "beat" Smith. And yet he immediately went to this one way.

Of course the agents are programs and supposedly the only way to "kill" them is to "delete" them. But if that is true then it makes me wonder why Neo (who by this time was totally aware of how programs are deleted at the Source after talking to Oracle in the park) immediately comes out swinging.

It makes me wonder, was he aware of some other way?

After all, at the beginning of Reloaded he doesn't beat one agent---he beats three! And he does it with his bare hands. The first step to killing someone is to beat them into unconciousness, which is what he did to them. I know, I know, it all seems a bit ancilliary, but I think it is a relevant event.

Evolusionary wrote:

After all, at the beginning of Reloaded he doesn't beat one agent---he beats three! And he does it with his bare hands.

Remember that in Reloaded he also manages to keep pace with hundreds of Smiths.

Evolusionary wrote:

It makes me wonder, was he aware of some other way?

I can definitely see that. Neo, to me, seems to be going into this final fight blind (pun intended). He knows he can beat Smith (because he knows he is the One), but he's not so sure on how yet ... Or do you think he knew exactly how from before the fight even began?

My entire point is that if the agents are only able to be hit but not "killed" then why employ this particular method of attack?

Neo didn't get into a huge brawl with Smith at the end of M1. In the subway he got into a slugfest, but from the moment he realized he was the One he no longer did that. he used his abilities to bend and break the rules. Neo was painfully aware that punching Smith didn't make a dime's worth of difference in the subway. That is why he flew into Smith at the end of M1. He had already tried pummelling him to no avail.

It's not like Neo needed to be told that punching Smith would not beat him!

If Neo resorts back to this tactic at the end of Revolutions we can only assume it is because he believes it has some merit. This leaves only one of two possibilities:

1.) The Wachowski's are trying to make a symbolic point

2.) Neo believes he can defeat Smith with his bare hands.

I know most people will side with the first notion but still...

Evolusionary wrote:

If Neo resorts back to this tactic at the end of Revolutions we can only assume it is because he believes it has some merit. This leaves only one of two possibilities: 1.) The Wachowski's are trying to make a symbolic point 2.) Neo believes he can defeat Smith with his bare hands. I know most people will side with the first notion but still...

Actually, my instinct has always been to side with the second answer. I mean, for everything else, it's still a comic book movie. I'm very much reminded of The Dark Knight Returns, the greatest Batman graphic novel. Dark Knight chronicles the end of Batman's career. Right before Batman has his final fight with the Joker, he delivers this soliloquy internally--

"Can you see it Joker? Feels to me like it's written all over my face. I've lane awake nights planning it, picturing it ... endless nights considering every possible method, treasuring each imaginary moment ... From the beginning I knew that there's nothing wrong with you that I can't fix with my hands."

Oddly enough, Batman can't go through with it in the end either. The Joker finally realizes that the fight is over, and kills himself. Possible inspiration for the Ws? Seems very likely (you can't be a comic book dork who grew up in the 80s and not have studied The Dark Knight Returns like it was a Holy Scripture).

Interesting you would mention Frank Miller's seminal work. We all know Matrix was originally intended to be a comic book with plans to be a movie. Another comic book writer, Grant Morrison, has always alleged that the Wachowskis plagerized parts of his series "The Invisibles". One look at "King Mob" in the Wikipedia will absolutely raise a lot of questions.

en.wikipedia.org...

Perhaps Neo felt it was time that Smith was just blown off the face of the earth. He certainly didn't fail for lack of trying. He smacked Smith so hard Smith flew through concrete.

I guess I said all that to say if I were there in front of Neo I would have to ask

"Okay Neo. You know Smith is a program with the ability to regenerate himself even after being fatally wounded. So with all your hitting him---what exactly are you expecting to happen?"