»Pandora's Box records: Arcs 1 thru 4«

I shifted some pictures around in my Photobucket account, so I think the old links are gone now. So I'm re-posting all the ones I've previously posted, along with a few new ones. Hats off to my crew captain AnubiasLightner for getting all these for me. Enjoy!

ARC 1

Thanks very much for posting these, they're very intriguing. I, for one, would like to know your thoughts on these.

Yes, particularly the record of Revenge. What is that all about?

Based on things I've heard other players say on the forums, the angelic agents decided that they were going to kill all the humans. If you read it again with that in mind, you can see that the agents believed that if they were successful, not only would it cleanse the humans (presumably of their "sin" of rejecting paradise), but it would leave the Machines with no power source.

Now here's a thought I just had. The Record of Betrayal says that after the humans rejected paradise, the angelic agents were cast into the dark. Later, the Record of Fate claims that their love for humanity has damned the agents to hell. At first I thought this "hell" was some sort of construct separate from the Matrix. But if they still had access to humans, then perhaps something else is going on here.

I theorize that the angelic agents are talking about the Architect's second failed Matrix, which some people (including myself) believe to be akin to hell--the opposite extreme to the Architect's paradise. If this is the case, then what happened is that the agents were somehow carried over to this new version, and sought to rid it of all humans. If this is the case, we don't know exactly what happened after that. But sometime after that, the angelic agents ended up in the Pandora's Box, which as far as I know are constructs separate from the Matrix that are under the Merovingian's control. He has other prison constructs, one of the most notable ones being called Blackwood--which Seraph purportedly escaped from prior to working for the Merovingian.

That should be enough to chew on for now, I think.

Yes these all are very interesting. *reads some of them again*

Thought this was funny.

Lt. Col Browning

"Saw one of those new prototypes today. Pansy ass suit, stupid shades...the whole nine yards. Trust me, he won't last long. Looks like he should be pushing papers on a desk...not taking down redpills."

and

Col Walker

"I think we've all herd about 'em by now. Emotionless freaks."

Paperpusher? Freaks? Ha ha ha!

It is kinda funny, isn't it? But I'd love to see the looks on those soldier agents' faces when the "agent" agents begin the process of kicking their asses. Now THAT would be priceless.

On a side note, I wanted to mention something that occurred to me while reading the records from Arc 3 with the soldier agents. They refer to redpills, which means that at least their version of the Matrix was post-Oracle, not pre-Oracle. That is at least some evidence that there really was only two versions before the Oracle, as stated by the Architect. Probably all the other versions we're hearing about (feudal Japan, the one with the soldier agents, etc.) are all dealing with the Oracle's version of the Matrix, with each iteration focusing on a different time period. For instance, the first cycle may have been the feudal Japan version, while the one just before Neo may have had the soldier agents.

This is interesting, since it hints at the idea that Smith has probably only been around for one cycle. If he was a different kind of agent before, he would have been slated for deletion when the newer "agent" agents (could someone please come up with a better description than that) came onto the scene. And this all seems to point at the fact that agents know about the cycles, because they know about past versions of agents (since they encounter them). But their knowledge of the cycles and the importance of the One are probably very limited.

Great post, Feral Boy. That idea about the cycles is what I was mentioning on that other thread. It sounds like each of these eras is one of the "six versions" of the Oracle Matrix.

I remember seeing cutscenes of Neo fighting in Feudal Japan in the Path of Neo preview, but I've never had a chance to play the game. Could that be a hint that Neo is truely connected to each former one in some way (i.e. he is interracting with a former version, so must have access to that version's memories or even somehow been the former and current One)? Made me wonder. Anyone played the game who could enlighten me?

Also, on tozy's site she has something like "The fires of hell are the rejection of God's love." And in Dr. Faustus there is a quote something like, "I who have known the joys of heaven am damned to a thousand hells to be cast away from them [to this earthly plane]." (That's not an exact quote, but it's close).

So could hell for the Agents be a disconnect from "the Source" in some way? Or represent their exile from the machine world into the Matrix? Which would explain Smith's burning desire to escape the Matrix. He is trying to escape hell...

Perhaps.

CaptPostMod wrote:

I remember seeing cutscenes of Neo fighting in Feudal Japan in the Path of Neo preview, but I've never had a chance to play the game. Could that be a hint that Neo is truely connected to each former one in some way (i.e. he is interracting with a former version, so must have access to that version's memories or even somehow been the former and current One)? Made me wonder. Anyone played the game who could enlighten me?

Well I haven't played the game but that Japan fight takes place during the scene in M1 when he sits in the chair for 10 hours getting a bunch of martial arts downloaded into his mind, you get to play the training programs.

GhostTrax wrote:

CaptPostMod wrote: I remember seeing cutscenes of Neo fighting in Feudal Japan in the Path of Neo preview, but I've never had a chance to play the game. Could that be a hint that Neo is truely connected to each former one in some way (i.e. he is interracting with a former version, so must have access to that version's memories or even somehow been the former and current One)? Made me wonder. Anyone played the game who could enlighten me? Well I haven't played the game but that Japan fight takes place during the scene in M1 when he sits in the chair for 10 hours getting a bunch of martial arts downloaded into his mind, you get to play the training programs.

I played the game. Yes it's part of a training program.

Agent Dragon wrote:

Thought this was funny. Lt. Col Browning: "Saw one of those new prototypes today. Pansy ass suit, stupid shades...the whole nine yards. Trust me, he won't last long. Looks like he should be pushing papers on a desk...not taking down redpills."

That's something that makes them even more scary. The fact that their appearance belies the violence you know they are capable of and that formality just says something about the level of seriousness they put into their work.

This kinda shows why the transition was made.

If Neo had done what the other Ones did, and there was another iteration of the Matrix with different agents, I wonder what they would have been like. Maybe the agents from Neo's cycle were so effective, that they wouldn't have seen a need to make a change.

There does seem to be one change that sets the latest agents apart from previous versions--the ability to choose. In one of the missions for the Machine faction in MxO, an agent tells you point-blank that they do not have the ability to choose. I believe this idea is really brought out with Smith, who was also unable to resist the system until Neo unplugged him. But when you read the records from these past agents, there seems to be a streak of rebellion in all of them--something that was apparently phased out with the latest agents. Amazingly enough, fate conspired to give one of the agents the ability to choose anyway--and he nearly brought about the downfall of the entire Matrix. It's like the Architect just can't win no matter what he does!

Well, the problem is choice. I've written before that I think that the machines must have choice as much as the humans in order for the Matrix to work.

It is interesting the idea that an "angel" (which, in a way, is what Smith is) can not refuse God, until the One (the Messiah) casts him out. And then all the sudden that same fallen angel is able to exercise choice to a nth degree... That's quite an engaging little theological idea there

CaptPostMod wrote:

It is interesting the idea that an "angel" (which, in a way, is what Smith is) can not refuse God, until the One (the Messiah) casts him out. And then all the sudden that same fallen angel is able to exercise choice to a nth degree... That's quite an engaging little theological idea there

And yet, as somebody else pointed out on another thread (intell or tozy probably), even though some programs can escape deletion and choose exile, they are still bound to their purpose. It may be a higher purpose, like the Keymaker's choice to help the One, but in the case of the Keymaker he still used his original lower purpose of making keys to pursue his higher purpose. Once a Keymaker, always a Keymaker. And although he wasn't a program, Neo was not able to escape his fate either. He may have bypassed going to the Source when he was in the Architect's chamber, but one way or another, it was inevitable that he would end up there.

Both Smith's and Neo's purposes had to be satisfied. Smith's purpose was to kill the One and Neo's purpose was to die. I believe these two purposes are unique to this particular iteration of the Oracle's Matrix, by the way. Normally the One's purpose is to simply maintain the status quo. And though this was Neo's lower purpose as well, he managed to transcend it and utilize it to bring about peace.

The two paths of Neo and Smith met head-on, and when they collided there was a brilliant flash of light that lit up all three realms. As tozy will tell you, the farther along Neo continued on his path of enlightenment, the stronger Smith would get as well. So when Neo left the Path of the One, Smith likewise progressed. No longer was he satisfied with just Neo's destruction--he now sought to end ALL life. Smith's purpose was wrapped up in Neo, whom he believed he was supposed to kill. In Smith's eyes, the purpose of Neo's life was to end. So eventually he took that view of Neo's life and applied it across the board, surmising that the purpose of ALL life was to end. Not exactly a bright outlook on life.

That was Tozy. Earlier, Surprised brought it up as well.

FeralBoy wrote:

Amazingly enough, fate conspired to give one of the agents the ability to choose anyway--and he nearly brought about the downfall of the entire Matrix. It's like the Architect just can't win no matter what he does!

"As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is sytemic, creating random fluctuations in the most simplistic equations."

Maybe they are starting to become aware that they HAVE a choice, like Rama Kandra. The Oracle talked alot in Rev. about the choices she made, so at least some programs have free will or at least a very convincing simulation of it.

Quote:

As tozy will tell you, the farther along Neo continued on his path of enlightenment, the stronger Smith would get as well. So when Neo left the Path of the One, Smith likewise progressed. No longer was he satisfied with just Neo's destruction--he now sought to end ALL life.

Inev has stressed the same thing. "Everytime someone visits the Oracle, [who has enlightened the path of the One] the more the Smith is revealed." Remember? So she is connected to the path as well and is willing to go as far as Neo. And they did go far.

intell wrote:

Maybe they are starting to become aware that they HAVE a choice, like Rama Kandra. The Oracle talked alot in Rev. about the choices she made, so at least some programs have free will or at least a very convincing simulation of it.

Interesting thing, this concept of freewill. Sentient programs are a great starting point for us to begin to examine how freewill might work in our own lives. Some people might tell you that they have a completely free will, unhindered by anything. Someone might reply that there ARE limitations, such as not being able to fly just because you choose to (gravity kinda complicates that notion). Then someone might respond to THAT that if you believe enough, you can accomplish anything--and that if the person was unable to fly it was only because they didn't really believe they could. And so on and so forth.

Rama Kandra has an interesting take on freewill. He believes in karma and that we "are all here to do what we're all here to do." But he doesn't seem to take that as a concrete sort of thing where every action is somehow prechosen for him. There seems to be at least a certain degree of elbow room, where one may be aware of his or her karma, and yet make decisions that are truly from a free will. Rama's motivation to bring Sati to the Matrix was love, something that Smith would have surely scoffed at.

But the Wachowski Brothers seem to be saying that even if we all agreed that ideas like love, freedom or truth are all bunk ideas that we concocted to try to make sense of everything--they are still important nonetheless. Why do you get up in the morning and go through another day? What motivates you? Why is it a bad thing if someone loses hope and takes their own life? Because hope is something we need. The purpose of life is NOT to merely end. And I'm not talking about an afterlife or a deity (even though I believe in those things), but about having a rich and meaningful life where the things you do are fulfilling to you and others.

intell wrote:

"Everytime someone visits the Oracle, [who has enlightened the path of the One] the more the Smith is revealed."

I like that a lot! Smith can be easily overlooked because we see him as something that simply needs to be defeated or at the very least shoved to the side so we don't have to deal with him.

Lots of fun stuff on this thread I've been so distracted with that other, haven't had a time to visit over here enough.

Feral Boy wrote:

I like that a lot! Smith can be easily overlooked because we see him as something that simply needs to be defeated or at the very least shoved to the side so we don't have to deal with him.

If that is true, then what is Smith as allegory? What is it that we see as something we can defeat or shove to the side easily but will eventually overwhelm us?

Also, if Smith were taken as an angel, then there is precedent for him to feel his purpose is fulfilled in extinguishing the blight of humanity from God's perfect world.

CaptPostMod wrote:

If that is true, then what is Smith as allegory? What is it that we see as something we can defeat or shove to the side easily but will eventually overwhelm us? Also, if Smith were taken as an angel, then there is precedent for him to feel his purpose is fulfilled in extinguishing the blight of humanity from God's perfect world.

I think the best way to understand Smith is to look at him the way Tozy would describe him--the side of Neo's personality he doesn't like (oversimplification, but you get the idea). I don't think Smith fits as well in other frameworks, such as Christian or Grail quest frameworks.

Although I understand that everything in the Matrix can be understood to be aspects of your own mind, spirit and body, I do believe several characters also have their own aspects that translate well to other methods of interpretation. But Smith doesn't fall too well into the category of a Satan-type or other archetypes I've heard mentioned. I believe he's best understood as a doppelganger and the side of our personality we must accept.

Great thread ! I have a few questions :


1) I noticed that in ETM, when Niobi tried to free the keymaker, he was in a jail with many other people around crying "they took my eyes" and above in the first post you made, Feral Boy, they also say that they're experimenting on their eyes.

Any relation with these prisoners and also the eyes of the Oracle ?


2) Where do they say that the Matrix had a feudal period please ? Are there more info about that ?


3) On Mxo, where did you find these hints exactly please ? For us, non-players, what does exactly the Pandora box do and who opened it ?


I'd like to add my own little theory here : I'm a defender of what I called the MAC (men are computers) theory : and what you say about the first Matrix confirms that theory.

The Angels wanted to kill every man because that's what men wanted, they prefer to die rather than not having the possibility to choose and since every program is the result of a calculation made by the human brains, then these programs started to do what the humans unconsciously wanted : to kill themselves.

That reflects basically how our world works : you don't choose who you are, where you're born, how your brain works, your parents, your history, etc.
The only thing you can choose, is to accept this life or not (all the other choices you make will result of that first choice), that's the only possibility that Nature grant you.

Apocryphe wrote:

I'd like to add my own little theory here : I'm a defender of what I called the MAC (men are computers) theory : and what you say about the first Matrix confirms that theory.

Lol, and I thought that MAC = Mothers Against Canada from the South Park movie!

I would say it looks more like a Mac address but I guess we all have our own heroes

Apocryphe wrote:

I would say it looks more like a Mac address but I guess we all have our own heroes

I just bought a router, because I'm going to switch from dial up to ADSL and I was reading the MAC address of it when I read your post! LOL

Coincidence? Or a glitch in the Matrix?

If you saw two cats, then I advise you to run to the nearest exist before they get you