»God in the matrix?«

One big reason for the shift could be that the W's wanted to make a destinct line between the 'real' and the Matrix. The fact that Neo can't fly in the 'real' world makes it real and very distinct from the virtual reality of the matrix.

Some conotations could be that the belief system is different in the 'real' world as well. Again in the first movie, most of it was in the Matrix, and going forward, creating and presenting Zion as real through a)setting b)human ablility and mortality and possiblely c) different belief system could have been part of the plan.

Just kinda thinkin' out loud here

There is no shift.

or spoon

intell wrote:

There is no shift.

If the stories are a cohesive whole as the W's have suggested, then you must be right. But why the appearance of a shift? How can there be none, when one seems so apparent?

The god is named "Warner Brothers".

intell wrote:

The god is named "Warner Brothers".

You feel Warner Brothers inserted or played up the paradigm shift that seemingly occurs between the first film and the sequels? How so?

gina rink wrote:

The first movie seems to be edited with the Monomyth in mind. The sequel (movies two and three) seem to have more of an agenda. The Wachowskis left Campbell’s Monomyth model to follow the model that I speak of in this post. The WB turned around edited the movies to follow the Monomyth closer. The only problem was the edits left out too much, and we ended up with ETM. All in all, I believe the writers would have liked to done it all at once, but the small budget of the first movie was a condition that could not be traversed. When they realized that they could get the money to finish what they wanted, the Brothers turned to write the sequel.

But I guess that depends on whether you agree with Gina Rink. I have heard similar things from other sources about the film editing. (I haven't read all of the original scripts.)

I've read the orginal scripts and the movies didn't leave out much that doesn't later get explained. (i.e. the previous ones) Some action gets cut, but nothing that delves into or contributes to the philosophical nature of the movies.

From what I understand from the interviews, the W's had the trilogy in mind, but they had to wait to see if the first would be successful.

I think there is a does of the real in M2 and M3 and especially after M2 the whole thing gets turned upside down. (ie the Architect's speech)

I think that M1 was only monomyth in that it was very allegorical to a Messianic storyline. I think the rest of the movies expounded upon that in a great interesting trilogy.

Of course its just my interpretation.

I feel ya.

intell wrote:

gina rink wrote: The first movie seems to be edited with the Monomyth in mind. The sequel (movies two and three) seem to have more of an agenda. The Wachowskis left Campbell’s Monomyth model to follow the model that I speak of in this post. The WB turned around edited the movies to follow the Monomyth closer. The only problem was the edits left out too much, and we ended up with ETM. I have heard similar things from other sources about the film editing.

Interesting to equate the monomyth with panentheism/monotheism. I've discussed before that the sequels (to me) do still seem to adhere very much to Campbell's monomyth (though perhaps that is WB editing I'm noting). But the sequels definitely depart from panentheism and move over to pantheism.

How do you think those two paradigm shifts corelate?

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How do you think those two paradigm shifts corelate?

You must first explain where you think the shift occurred and how.

intell wrote:

You must first explain where you think the shift occurred and how.

See my earlier post on this thread--

CaptPostMod wrote:

The original film, to me, seems to very much support panentheism and/or monotheism. The miraculous nature of the Oracle, the fateful defeat of Cypher, the resurrection of Neo. They all suggest an active God force in the real world. M2/M3 seem to shift over to pantheism and/or atheism. Pantheism because machines and humans are shown to be very relient on each other. There is quite a bit of discussion about the interconnected relation of things. Atheism and pantheism because: The human world is not controlled by an overt faith (no miraculous Cypher defeats), resurrection is only possible in the virtual world (Trinity is brought back in the Matrix, but later dies in the real world), and the Oracle is not miraculous, she's just a good mathematician (a computer program able to process the most likely outcomes for the future in order to influence said future). I wonder what caused this shift between films? Why remove God and the miraculous from the world of Zion?

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The human world is not controlled by an overt faith (no miraculous Cypher defeats)

Cypher's defeat seems no less similar to the 3 ships, 3 different objectives bit or the 2 ships, 2 different directions thingie to me. Or the timing of the sentinels being called off. Or the timing of Trinity's life being in danger at the end of M2, imo.

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resurrection is only possible in the virtual world (Trinity is brought back in the Matrix, but later dies in the real world),

True. But that was shown in M1 as well.

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and the Oracle is not miraculous, she's just a good mathematician (a computer program able to process the most likely outcomes for the future in order to influence said future).

That's the Architect. The Oracle sees through choices made and predicts that way.

intell wrote:

Quote: resurrection is only possible in the virtual world (Trinity is brought back in the Matrix, but later dies in the real world), True. But that was shown in M1 as well.

What about Tank?

intell wrote:

Cypher's defeat seems no less similar to the 3 ships, 3 different objectives bit or the 2 ships, 2 different directions thingie to me. Or the timing of the sentinels being called off. Or the timing of Trinity's life being in danger at the end of M2, imo.

That I have to grant you. Perhaps there is more spirituality in the Zion world in the sequels than had originally appeared to me. So, you may be right, there may be no shift at all. Though Wilber alludes to this shift himself when he speaks of the revelation that the Oracle is a program (a revelation that struck me fairly strongly as well).

Tank wasn't dead so he couldn't have been resurrected. Disagree? Point to the scene where we see Tank die.

intell wrote:

Tank wasn't dead so he couldn't have been resurrected. Disagree? Point to the scene where we see Tank die.

I'm not alluding to it as a bonified resurection, more just a miraculous event in that he wasn't dead to begin with.

Pulp Fiction--

Jules: Whether or not what we experienced was an According to Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved.

Cypher, like the dude shooting at Jules and Vincent just plain missed.

Had he not been so preoccupied with Trin and Neo, he might have noticed. And dropping the gun right by the body was not the brightest idea he could have had.

Plus, it did seem like you called it resurrection.

Just what if Tank did die? what would have stopped Cyhper from killing Neo? Do the Machines have a measure of control in the free Zion world?

what would they have done also if Neo was dead ( Machines )

loudbark wrote:

Just what if Tank did die? what would have stopped Cyhper from killing Neo? Do the Machines have a measure of control in the free Zion world? what would they have done also if Neo was dead ( Machines )

In the Bible Jesus' future was already written before he was born the prophesies told of his coming and even though Jesus could see the future and knew that he was about to be crucified Jesus pleaded and ask God to stop his death but in the end his future was already written.

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How do you mean, 'If Jeseus Was real...saved the human race'?. If im reading correctly, then you must remember that the Movies is set in 2199 or whatever. The time of Jesus had already passed thousands of years before, along with the rest of history. Also remember that many have managed to relate the matrix to the bible, in that Neo is indeed the saviour - a reflection of the occurances in the bible. The reson the characters use blaspheme , i believe is the same reason we all do. We all swear, not for any deep reason.

-Crisis Four

well dude armegedon retard!

THE_FIRST_ONE wrote:

What I have found is that the matrix movie is in fact saying that there is no god. Because if you look at it this way you might see what I mean. Jesus obviously was someone who was in the matrix world. That is why the characters in the matrix say JESUS and goddamn.. But if jesus was really real wouldnt he have saved the human race from the matrix? The reason why the characters blaspheme is because they feel that there is no god. The real savior is neo

The Architect and the Oracle are the same traditions about the two side of the omnipotent god for the gnostic tratidions.

so..

Neo, pushed by Morpheus( the god of dreams), save all the human race, cuz Architect and Oracle are Control Systems on the Matrix... Just part of the Equation for the Security Implement, and all the hoax to prevent errors of system.