»Zion IS real«

This is just my opinion, so I don't have any facts to back it up.

Zion is real in my opinion. It is place which has been constructed by the machines. They made Zion because it is a place where all the humans can group. This is an advantage to the machines because it makes their attacks for specific. I do not believe it is another Matrix what-so-ever because their is no hints in the trilogy that is it another Matrix, or there has never been any sort of factual information that is it another Matrix. My opinion stands and I think it is a very good one. I do not see what the huge debate is about to be honest. The machines created it so the humans can group there. Obviously, this helps the machines because when they attack Zion they have the power to wipe out all the freed humans.

Anybody else support my theory?

not really

Neo wrote:

This is just my opinion, so I don't have any facts to back it up. Zion is real in my opinion. It is place which has been constructed by the machines. They made Zion because it is a place where all the humans can group. This is an advantage to the machines because it makes their attacks for specific. I do not believe it is another Matrix what-so-ever because their is no hints in the trilogy that is it another Matrix, or there has never been any sort of factual information that is it another Matrix. My opinion stands and I think it is a very good one. I do not see what the huge debate is about to be honest. The machines created it so the humans can group there. Obviously, this helps the machines because when they attack Zion they have the power to wipe out all the freed humans. Anybody else support my theory?

agame wrote:

not really

Why not?

What's your theory?

i dont think that zion was machine made i think it is human made

Well....you're wrong.

Machines built it, not the humans.

how did the machines make zion

yall are stupid, did you even pay attention to the movies?

The City of Zion was created by the One after every destruction of the city and the people in it. When Neo talks to the Architect he is told that if he goes through one of the doors he will select 23 people to recreate Zion after its 6th destruction. Jesus!

The City of Zion is no where near a matrix within matrix thought It is the last standing city of the Humans! and When it is destroyed Neo (the One) would use his powers to rebuild it!

i think the humans made it, i believe it was there long before the matrix. I believe this strongly as i have placed it in my matrix 5

I think that Zion, or rather the beginnings, or ruins of Zion was built by the machines as part of the 'matrix system'

Remember that 'Rebels', or those that reject the program are part of the system - accepted facts that the machines must deal with.

Also, think how close to the machine city Zion is. This is something that has often confused me - why so close? Control?
The humans believe that they are living in a self-built utopie from which to fight their cause. The thought would never cross their minds that they are still in fact, under control.

metrodeath wrote:

yall are stupid, did you even pay attention to the movies? The City of Zion was created by the One after every destruction of the city and the people in it. When Neo talks to the Architect he is told that if he goes through one of the doors he will select 23 people to recreate Zion after its 6th destruction. Jesus! The City of Zion is no where near a matrix within matrix thought It is the last standing city of the Humans! and When it is destroyed Neo (the One) would use his powers to rebuild it!

Yes, but thats not what I'm reffering to. The very first Zion creation was made by the machines. After it was created, it was place for humans to hang out. You're referring to the cycle that the Architect created. I'm talking about the very first creation of Zion. That's why I think its real.

Dude the City of Zion was not made by the machines ever, that has been explained. After the first person that rejected the programing released the 23 others, they built cities underground, Morpheus explains this in the Neb's flight to Zion after saving Neo. And all of the cities are hundreds of miles into the Earth's crust, very far from the machines, thats why they dug to get near them. The reason it seems so close is because they didn't want to bore you with pointless Hvrcrft flight scenes.

When does Morpheus say that then? I cannot recall Morpheus explaining the origins of Zion atall.

metrodeath wrote:

Dude the City of Zion was not made by the machines ever, that has been explained. After the first person that rejected the programing released the 23 others, they built cities underground, Morpheus explains this in the Neb's flight to Zion after saving Neo. And all of the cities are hundreds of miles into the Earth's crust, very far from the machines, thats why they dug to get near them. The reason it seems so close is because they didn't want to bore you with pointless Hvrcrft flight scenes.

I can't stress enough that you are wrong. It is never said in the trilogy that Zion was made by the humans, if anything, you get the impression the machines made it. "We have become very efficient at it." This is the Architect telling Neo that he and the machines have become very efficient in destroying Zion. Theirs something about that quote which proves my point.

Also, how could the very first human create such a huge city like Zion? You think its coincidence that the humans all gather there? If the humans where so good at creating the citys, why not make a secret one? A city which the machines would not know about? It would make their life a whole lot easier. That city is their for one purpose, for the machines to attack the humans. It is a main function of the cycle. And you can't say that machines cant build city's .... I mean, just look at machine city! Here's how I think it goes:

1. The machines took over the humans. They provided a city for the freed humans, so they could all gather their and make their attacks more pertinent.

2. The Architect creates the Matrix. He then inserts The One program into a human who is plugged in.

3. The Architect then frees a certain amount of humans to begin the cycle. Remember, its all a cycle of control. These humans are placed in Zion, and they live their life from their.

4. Then theirs the Oracle, she is another type of control. She will consult the freed humans to visit her. She will explain to one of them that they will find The One.

5. A freed humans finds The One, they battle throughout the Matrix searching for piece.

6. The Architect meets up with The One. He explains a lot of things about the Matrix and Zion and then offers The One a choice.

7. The One chooses the door which leads to the source, he/she then has to choose some humans plugged into the Matrix to rebuild Zion.

8. The One is destroyed, and the cycle begins all over again.

You are an idiot! the architect creates and edits the matrix. The City of Zion was human made, and in the first movie, the entire crew AND Morpheus explain peices of the creation of Zion and the other out lying cities. The Machines become good at destroying zion because they've done it so many times over! DUH! There are 24 humans after the One enters the door, and they make a small city, they then release more people and the cities grow! No its not coincidence that humans gather there, its the fact that it is the ONLY CITY LEFT! F%$@! they make it secret, and the machines find it! The city is there to hold a resistance.

"1. The machines took over the humans. They provided a city for the freed humans, so they could all gather their and make their attacks more pertinent. "

well then, dont you think that they would just kill the freed humans? oh wait, now I remember, the first 24 were released on a deal between the Architect and the One... and oh YEA! the others are taken secretly by a hovercraft!

The One isnt made on purpose!

you know what watch the mvies at least once! youll see that everything is answered. But to just add one more thing, the oracle isnt a control, She WILLING helps the humans. By telling them of the One she hopes that He/she will one day take the other door! The Oracle does this with no regret (in case you were wondering) because she is the Mother of the matrix! how do you think she has survived all 7 versions? this is explained in the final scene where she meets with the architect.

Now if you care to be more retarded then feel free to reply, if not reply simply with the words, "I am an idiot and i will now kick my own ass". JK but you can if you want.

You are an idiot! the architect creates and edits the matrix. The City of Zion was human made, and in the first movie, the entire crew AND Morpheus explain peices of the creation of Zion and the other out lying cities. The Machines become good at destroying zion because they've done it so many times over! DUH! There are 24 humans after the One enters the door, and they make a small city, they then release more people and the cities grow! No its not coincidence that humans gather there, its the fact that it is the ONLY CITY LEFT! F%$@! they make it secret, and the machines find it! The city is there to hold a resistance.

"1. The machines took over the humans. They provided a city for the freed humans, so they could all gather their and make their attacks more pertinent. "

well then, dont you think that they would just kill the freed humans? oh wait, now I remember, the first 24 were released on a deal between the Architect and the One... and oh YEA! the others are taken secretly by a hovercraft!

The One isnt made on purpose!

you know what watch the mvies at least once! youll see that everything is answered. But to just add one more thing, the oracle isnt a control, She WILLING helps the humans. By telling them of the One she hopes that He/she will one day take the other door! The Oracle does this with no regret (in case you were wondering) because she is the Mother of the matrix! how do you think she has survived all 7 versions? this is explained in the final scene where she meets with the architect.

Now if you care to be more retarded then feel free to reply, if not reply simply with the words, "I am an idiot and i will now kick my own ass". JK but you can if you want.

Neo wrote:

This is just my opinion, so I don't have any facts to back it up. Zion is real in my opinion. It is place which has been constructed by the machines. They made Zion because it is a place where all the humans can group. This is an advantage to the machines because it makes their attacks for specific. I do not believe it is another Matrix what-so-ever because their is no hints in the trilogy that is it another Matrix, or there has never been any sort of factual information that is it another Matrix. My opinion stands and I think it is a very good one. I do not see what the huge debate is about to be honest. The machines created it so the humans can group there. Obviously, this helps the machines because when they attack Zion they have the power to wipe out all the freed humans. Anybody else support my theory?

Here's where the problem is: Matrix fans often get their concepts and their places confused.

The matrix is a place where "bluepill" minds are "trapped". The W brothers did an excellent job of depicting it as a place. But, the important part is the concept of "Minds being trapped".

So, if I someone says, MWAM is true. They could easily support it with the concept that Redpill-Zion minds can be and are easily (mentally) trapped with Bluepill-Matrix concepts. This is called irony which leads to an underlying paradox. And, it confuses the hell out of people.

So where's the main example? Neo. Some people believed that Neo was a messiah (You saved me - The Kid) because he did great things. This is the Oracle's plan and many people both Bluepill and Redpill were trapped in it. Hence, MWAM or a Matrix within a Matrix is true.

This says nothing of the actual places, "The computer simulation called The Matrix" or "The Desert of the Real...Zion".

The truth is Neo did great things because he was horribly conscious person (You saved yourself - Neo).

And, this is the big conceptual "joke" (although those who understand are not laughing) of the Matrix, Reloaded/Revolutions, and esp. the Matrix Online: here are all these people looking for ways to free themselves or "think" they are free from the Matrix and all they do is wind up on one side of the Oracle's plan or the other.

Zion is the real world and 99% of them are trapped in it.

The synthesis of these concepts leads us to believe Zion is real and MWAM true.

There's only 1% of truly free people, and they are (not openly expressed in any of the movies) the potentials (who the Oracle uses for her plan).

Lastly, after the Machines took over, Zion was forced to go underground (another concept turned into a place) where they created cities to live in. The concept being "underground"...you know rebels...living by their own rules until the day they can go back to the surface...that is, not live in hiding.

metrodeath wrote:

You are an idiot! the architect creates and edits the matrix. The City of Zion was human made, and in the first movie, the entire crew AND Morpheus explain peices of the creation of Zion and the other out lying cities. The Machines become good at destroying zion because they've done it so many times over! DUH! There are 24 humans after the One enters the door, and they make a small city, they then release more people and the cities grow! No its not coincidence that humans gather there, its the fact that it is the ONLY CITY LEFT! F%$@! they make it secret, and the machines find it! The city is there to hold a resistance. "1. The machines took over the humans. They provided a city for the freed humans, so they could all gather their and make their attacks more pertinent. " well then, dont you think that they would just kill the freed humans? oh wait, now I remember, the first 24 were released on a deal between the Architect and the One... and oh YEA! the others are taken secretly by a hovercraft! The One isnt made on purpose! you know what watch the mvies at least once! youll see that everything is answered. But to just add one more thing, the oracle isnt a control, She WILLING helps the humans. By telling them of the One she hopes that He/she will one day take the other door! The Oracle does this with no regret (in case you were wondering) because she is the Mother of the matrix! how do you think she has survived all 7 versions? this is explained in the final scene where she meets with the architect. Now if you care to be more retarded then feel free to reply, if not reply simply with the words, "I am an idiot and i will now kick my own ass". JK but you can if you want.

So the movies back up everything? Show me a quote from the movies which tells us Zion was made by humans?

Show me a quote which tells us that the Oracle is not another form of control?

Because, I don't think you have them. You're making assumptions, like me, and are using abuse to back yourself up. It doesn't work with me, mate. I've been cruising the forum industry long enough to know that insulting, arguing etc are all made for losers. My motto always goes: "Arguing on the internet is like metrodeath....even if you win - you're still a loser."

Right, now you can send me those quotes I requested. Because you're opinion does not change my opinion what so ever. And to call me an idiot and just repeat something I said is literally beyong me. I said the Architect created the Matrix....this was you're reply. "You are an idiot! the architect creates and edits the matrix." .... I mean, are you been serious or is just a wind up?

You have no knowledge on the Matrix. You haven't based any of you're points on anything apart from theories and assumptions. Just like I am, but the difference is, I don't knock you're opinion. My opinion is no better than yours and you're totally entitled to one. But to get yourself all worked up over a forum shows what kind of a person you are. So grow up, AND POST THE PROOF THAT I'M WRONG!

gina rink wrote:

And, this is the big conceptual "joke" (although those who understand are not laughing) of the Matrix, Reloaded/Revolutions, and esp. the Matrix Online: here are all these people looking for ways to free themselves or "think" they are free from the Matrix and all they do is wind up on one side of the Oracle's plan or the other.

Excellent point!

That certainly parallels what is happening in our world today. And it shows why the movies were given their titles.

metrodeath wrote:

Dude the City of Zion was not made by the machines ever, that has been explained.

metrodeath wrote:

You are an idiot! the architect creates and edits the matrix. The City of Zion was human made, and in the first movie, the entire crew AND Morpheus explain peices of the creation of Zion and the other out lying cities.

"MATRIX: Where did you get the inspiration from in order to design the Zion world?

MICHAEL: It is heavily in the plot – like a subplot – that Zion was built by the machines. The people living in it think they built it themselves, or they’re not really sure. In actuality it had already been there, and there have been six lots of people living in it, so it’s probably a thousand years old. The thing is that the machines built it, so we went to the Industrial Revolution in the 1890s...
(...)
The city is underneath the landing area, and goes down for eight hundred meters, which I worked a bit on as well – it’s sort of a mass production of units, and that kind of dehumanizes it. All the balustrades come in components, so there’s a kilometer of balustrades and there is no relief. All the edges are mass produced, so it looks quite weird, but you can’t quite put your finger on it why it’s so cold. It’s actually very cold and inhuman, and everything repeats.
(...)
There are also a lot of clues in it, in that it looks way older than it could possibly be realistically. There are hundreds and hundreds of years of rust in it and it’s really decrepit. One clue, when you get down to the Residents Area, is that it has rock flowing over the fronts of the residences, and that takes hundreds of years to happen. But no one in Zion, I think, gets that they’re not the first ones there. They all feel like they’ve been freed from the machines, but in fact the machines have known all along that they’ve been freed and they’re just in another machine environment.
(...)
I think when you actually get into Zion and see it, the clues are all there that this isn’t built by humans. Humans would not build something that is eight hundred meters deep with unrelenting repetition, and build everyone the same apartment, layer after layer after layer. It just wouldn’t happen. When people are designing we put some relief in, but in Zion there is absolutely no relief. It’s like the machines have gone: this works, here you go, live here.
(...)
In the first film in the Power Plant when Neo woke up he was in his red Pod; what we had there was a solid core with the red Pods sticking out. And Zion is a hollow core with the red pods – residents’ homes – sticking in, which is another clue back to the machines having made where they’re living. The round lids, we called them, have all these tubes coming out of them that we’ve built as service pipes, and there are way too many service pipes. When you look at them they’re actually the same thing as with the Pods – they’re plugged in the same way. That was a brilliant concept Owen and the Brothers [Larry and Andy Wachowski, Writers / Directors] came up with."
whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com...

tozy wrote:

In the first film in the Power Plant when Neo woke up he was in his red Pod; what we had there was a solid core with the red Pods sticking out. And Zion is a hollow core with the red pods – residents’ homes – sticking in, which is another clue back to the machines having made where they’re living. The round lids, we called them, have all these tubes coming out of them that we’ve built as service pipes, and there are way too many service pipes. When you look at them they’re actually the same thing as with the Pods – they’re plugged in the same way. That was a brilliant concept Owen and the Brothers [Larry and Andy Wachowski, Writers / Directors] came up with."

That info is also at the 10 DVD boxset.

Holy crap, tozy--what a great find! I guess I missed that one. But it makes total sense when you think back on the movies--especially the part about Zion being like an inverted Power Plant, with all the pods being IN the wall instead of sticking OUT of the wall. Great stuff!

Quote:

Some people believed that Neo was a messiah (You saved me - The Kid) because he did great things.

The odd thing is, we never see Neo doing anything particularly great in M2 or M3. We do not see him freeing any minds. Nor do we see him sharing his vision with other people. Neo's final fight with Smith in M3 is just more kung fu, and he loses to boot, taking Smith with him.