»Latest edition of Sentinel from The Matrix Online game«

Feral Boy wrote:

Surprised wrote: What did you think of my idea that Ouroboros might have existed in actual human history, being the company that spawned the very first AI of machines? We have "MetaCortex", or "EvolvedBrain" (how machines see themselves in comparison to humans). Ouroboros is symbolic of cycles specifically in the way that death leads to life. You might need to explain this a bit further, because I don't yet understand what you're saying.

Sorry, this was definitely a bit vague. Think back to human history before the Matrix came about. Machines obviously know about all of human history just from human records alone (not to mention machines themselves lived in the end of human history). Perhaps there were really companies called Metacortex and Ouroboros that produced the first AI/robots which led to the machines and eventually the Matrix. If that were the case, it would make even more sense that the Merovingian's disguise in the Matrix is the president of the company that founded the machines. In a world full of disgusting and irrational humans, this company would probably feel most like "home", representing the closest he can get to the world of machines. Not to mention the additional status he'd gain in the eyes of exiles who are also programs/machines - in their eyes, he'd be the most powerful human in the Matrix because he represents the human heading the corporation that eventually leads to the enslavement of the human race.

Feral Boy wrote:

So I suppose for the sake of keeping the Architect's statements as truthful as possible, those "extra" versions could have taken place AFTER the Oracle took over.

What will be interesting is to hopefully find out which of these unknown versions came before or after the other.

Feral Boy wrote:

Holy crap! That makes such total sense! The Merovingian is doing his job, then the Oracle comes along with her Sight and has a better idea of how things should be run. Management hires her and fires the Merovingian. The Merovingian swears revenge and seeks to possess the thing which he believes made the Oracle better than him--her eyes. Brilliant stuff, man! And if that's true, then the first mention of the Merovingian by the Oracle is a very subtle hint that she's his replacement because she had just finished talking about programs getting scheduled for deletion when a better program comes along. See, this is why I wanted people in here talking about stuff!

Thanks, Feral. And this is also why I told you a long time ago to stay in touch. You and I think very much alike, and the goals of our thought processes are very similar. You definitely need to stick around.

Intell wrote:

Surprised wrote: the Merovingian calls Seraph his little Judas. Clearly Seraph used to protect the Merovingian. Before the Oracle came along, the Merovingian "mattered most" (I would argue this is another example of programs not able to deny purpose - Seraph's original purpose is to "protect that which matters most"). The Merovingian wouldn't have much right to use that "Judas" label (not to mention "Prodigal Son") for Seraph if the cause of this betrayal were actually the Merovingian's retirement. The Merovingian, after all, is the one who believes solely in causality - he'd have to apply his own logic and say that Seraph's betrayal is merely the logical effect of the Merovingian's cause. Likewise, would it be kinda funny for Merv to consider Seraph a traitor for simply following his "programming" if it were mere Cauality behind it.

Actually, I don't think so. Even Deus ex Machina demonstrates emotion (pride/anger) when there is no place for it. DEM knows Neo is right (that it can't stop Smith without Neo), but still it doesn't want to give in. Neo's correct assertion pisses DEM off. But DEM is compelled to give in. It must, because Neo is right. No matter how machines choose to feel about the truth, machines cannot deny truth any more than they can deny their original purpose. Truth is just as much a part of their programming as purpose is.

Smith was compelled to disobey. But this compelling feeling was rational, for one key reason: he can still fight anomalies. If a bird goes extinct, the program that governed that bird would probably choose deletion because it has no way to fulfill its purpose anymore. But I speculate that every program which is still capable of fulfilling its designed purpose chooses deletion. I base this speculation on the Oracle's statement that "most" programs choose deletion.

Intell wrote:

Surprised wrote: even refers to it as his "job". Why would he even use that word "job" if it were something he were merely choosing to do that he wasn't even created for? You can choose your job. Or you can "find another" one like Rhineheart told Neo he might have to do (which he did ) But Merv didn't use the word anyway.

You are right that the Merovingian didn't use the word "job" (I remembered incorrectly) - instead he uses "business". But the point was, the Merovingian took offense that he was asked if he knows something that he so obviously should know. Why does the Merovingian expect his knowledge of the matter to be so plainly obvious? Because he was designed with a purpose that allows him to. It would be like someone asking the IRS, "Are you aware of how much in taxes you've collected this year to date?" Of course they do, that's the whole purpose for the existence of the IRS. What a silly, utterly stupid question to ask them.

You argue that programs can find another job. I never said they couldn't. I just said they cannot quit their original job if the job is still available to do. Yes, many exiles are doing multiple jobs. Neo and Rhineheart is one thing - they are humans. Neo does a lot more than quit his job. But I can't think of any programs where we know for sure that they are no longer fulfilling their original purpose. Even the Oracle continues to study the human psyche even though (under my theory that Feral liked) she was scheduled to take over the Merovingian's job of information trafficking.

You used the Neo-Rhineheart conversation to parallel programs not doing their job - in my opinion this misses one of the biggest points of the entire trilogy. I use the conversation to parallel Neo not doing his job of the One in M2. Neo is the only "machine" with purpose that is actually not a machine - Neo is human, and therefore he is the only "machine" that can deny purpose! That's the whole point of Neo's choice for the left door. If Neo were an actual machine, he absolutely could not choose to deny his greatest purpose, namely to temporarily cancel out the systemic anomaly.

Intell wrote:

Surprised wrote: I mean, consider the fact that the Architect HAS to be aware that Mobil Ave. exists. The Architect allows this whole "Merovingian controls exiles" thing to happen. That may be well beyond the Architect's sphere of influence. He made the matrix and oversees its operation.

True, I guess the important thing is that the Architect not only knows Mobil Ave. exists, he uses it for a place to dump programs that choose exile. There would probably be a different system in place if it weren't for the Merovingian, but the Architect is making a virtue of necessity.[/i]

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But I speculate that every program which is still capable of fulfilling its designed purpose chooses deletion. I base this speculation on the Oracle's statement that "most" programs choose deletion.

I still can't get past the Oracle's words which make a distinction between those programs that are "doing what they're supposed to be doing" and those that are not. If the exiles are still fulfilling a purpose, how the hay are they not also doing what they're supposed to be doing as well. If a program that govern birds breaks down or is replaced, it still has the choice to return to the Source or "hide out here" in the Matrix, period. As an exile, it does whatever it chooses and appears whatever way as well. (Male/Female)

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You used the Neo-Rhineheart conversation to parallel programs not doing their job - in my opinion this misses one of the biggest points of the entire trilogy. I use the conversation to parallel Neo not doing his job of the One in M2.

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"There are alot of multiple meanings..." (Wachowskis)

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True, I guess the important thing is that the Architect not only knows Mobil Ave. exists, he uses it for a place to dump programs that choose exile. There would probably be a different system in place if it weren't for the Merovingian, but the Architect is making a virtue of necessity.

You still think it's the Architect that makes this decision? Some exiled programs are from the Machine World itself, as the Merovingian and Persephone seem to.

"When we first came here [the matrix]...he was different."

However way you understand that, Sati definitely came from the Machine World. RamaKandra spoke of "smuggling" things from "our world" (machine world) to "your world" (matrix). So this is not the first time something like this has happened.

I think the truth behind the title article should clear some of this up, soon.

I'm not sure this has any relevance to the discussion at hand, but the idea popped in my head when Intell was discussing the Architect's "sphere of influence". Haven't really thought it through much (and am short on time at the moment). So...um...here goes....

When Neo sees the machine city, he sees forms. He doesn't just see beings of light, but light within form. However, when Neo is carted off by the garbage scow, he is formless.

To me, the "forms" of light the machines exhibit have always been a sign of their purpose. They are DESIGNED for a reason, and this is what Neo sees when he is blinded.

When an exile is put into the Matrix, they have the opprotunity to redesign themselves to whatever shape/form they choose.

But Seraph still emits gold code. And perhaps this gold cold represents that he still has a purpose (within the Matrix AND the machine city). He is beyond the Architect's sphere of influence because he is not a product of the Matrix. He comes down (from the machine city) to protect "that which matters most" in the eyes of Spirit.

That's all for now. Like I said, it may be irrelevant, but I wanted to toss it out there.

Intel wrote:

If the exiles are still fulfilling a purpose, how the hay are they not also doing what they're supposed to be doing as well.

The Merovingian is doing what he's supposed to be doing and also what he's not supposed to be doing. I never said exiles are only doing what they're supposed to do - just that they cannot deny doing the bare minimum of what they were programmed to do. There is no example of a program not doing what it was originally programmed to do (at least, we don't know of any); however, there are plenty of examples of exiles doing what they were originally intended to do even though they doing other things on top of it and making trouble.

Intel wrote:

If a program that govern birds breaks down or is replaced, it still has the choice to return to the Source or "hide out here" in the Matrix, period. As an exile, it does whatever it chooses and appears whatever way as well. (Male/Female)

I'm not saying that programs of extinct animals don't have a choice. I'm saying that extinct programs actually do indeed choose deletion because their purpose no longer drives, binds, defines, pulls or guides them. Again, let me remind you that I fully acknowledge this is speculation... but that definitely doesn't mean counterarguments are automatically fact. I think it is equally speculative to assume that programs of extinct birds sometimes choose exile.

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You still think it's the Architect that makes this decision? Some exiled programs are from the Machine World itself, as the Merovingian and Persephone seem to.

Apparently you think I said Mobil Ave. is solely used for a route for deleted programs to take back into the Matrix... not true. All I said is that the Architect makes use of Mobil Ave., whether the Architect is in control of it or not.

Feral boy... you confirmed my suspicions that Wadsworth and that insufferable frenchman are one and the same.

a couple of clarifications...

Cryptos used to be a redpill (unplugged human) but went missing some time ago (that entire article on his past is fabricated / matrix history for bluepills). Before he went missing he used to be as much of a radical as Morpheus only more extreme, proclaiming the destruction of all machines.
He then turns up all of a sudden having done a complete 180 on his ideals.

It turns out he is the head (or at least figure head) of a splinter movement known as cypherites (as in Cypher from the first movie who wanted to be re-inserted). The Cypherites have long been assumed to be unnoficially supported by the machines. Then the "blue Sky" concerts, promoted by Wadsworth (the Merovingian) turn out to be a trick. There were huge blue searchlights that caused all sorts of stability problems with the matrix and were supposed to overload redpill connections tuning them "blue". Instead players destroyed the searchlights in a huge battle. This caused a huge power surge that disabled the hovercrafts of the cypherite exteremeists (Sleepwalkers... they existed only for the duration of the event) and killed the sleepwalkers. They were found shortly after, stinking the place up by being so dead and all

It has since been discovered that Cryptos is a known expert with simulacra (program simulations of himself) and uses them to perform his "amusements". However it appears that perhaps Cryptos is not Cryptos...
Myself and a few other players have obtained through various means recordings and data taps that appear to be between two programs talking of controlling a simulacrum including voice patterns and mannerisms. I believe that the Merovingian is puppeteering the Cypherites via an exile that is a simulacra expert, using a copy of one of the missing Cryptos' sims.

The merovingian as the primary data collection agent and part matrix construction coder of the system, was of great service to the architect. Then the Oracle was introduced as a different method of studying humans for the success of the simulation. Being unproven the architect (mentioned as Giovanni Porta in the article... both a composer and having a surname that means "door" ... "the composer behind the door") archived the Merovingian in Spindrift (which is also the snow dust that, while being part of the snow, is driven by
the wind and never actually sticks to it. It looks like snow but doesn't behave like it).
It turns out that the Oracle was successful at her job and the merovingian was no longer officially required and so hid out in spindrift until he was able to amass some exile followers and obtain the keymaker. Hence wanting the eyes of the oracle.

Also in French history the Merovingian of the time was the master of the spoils of war.

We have the General who was the program in charge of coordinationg machine battles against the humans.

We have the Architect who built the matrix to initial specifications, but it didn't work properly initially.

The Merovingian may have been the initial gatherer of information on humans for the architect. But his causality view was insufficient and the Oracle was made.

The Oracle is there as a way to study human decision... choice, the one problem with the matrix being accepted by bluepills.


I hope I didn't ramble too much

I just wanted to bring this back up one last time for anyone who didn't see Phi's response. He saw a posting I did on Paul Chadwick's weblog where I referenced this thread, and he was kind enough to respond and relay the knowledge he has learned in-game. Enjoy!

Surprised wrote:

Not only that, but the Merovingian calls Seraph his little Judas. Clearly Seraph used to protect the Merovingian.

In the first version of the site of Mxo, they said that Seraph was working for Merv for a short time, that was recent, so it can't be previous to the Oracle's Matrix.

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Seraph's original purpose is to "protect that which matters most"

According to Feral Boy, he said in another topic that the Pandora Box revealed that the first Angels were programmed to love man. Since Seraph is obviously one of these Angels, what matters most to him is probably the survival of humanity.

feral Boy wrote:

So I suppose for the sake of keeping the Architect's statements as truthful as possible, those "extra" versions could have taken place AFTER the Oracle took over.

Yep, Archi said ", I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your
nature"

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I've heard one player theorize that all five versions of the Oracle's Matrix before Neo were from a different time period

That would explain the Vampires and the different Exiles who still look like they just got out of the 17th century (remember Vlade in ETM).

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Actually, I don't think so. Even Deus ex Machina demonstrates emotion (pride/anger) when there is no place for it. DEM knows Neo is right (that it can't stop Smith without Neo), but still it doesn't want to give in. Neo's correct assertion pisses DEM off.

I think Deus Ex is trying to impress Neo in order to negociate at his advantage, but when he sees that the stratageme fails, he become all quiet.
Also note how he looks like a baby, I think that it means that the global AI is still very young in its process.

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But Seraph still emits gold code. And perhaps this gold cold represents that he still has a purpose (within the Matrix AND the machine city). He is beyond the Architect's sphere of influence because he is not a product of the Matrix.

In the script, The Brothers describes Seraph's code as being actually the lack of code between the shinning part.
I had theorized about that a long time ago but none believed me, now it's a fact : everything that comes from the source is actually encrypted so deeply in the code that they're not made of symbols-like code like the other programs, but instead the symbols themselves contain the little governing equation wich will determine the shape you see in Seraph. It's a code inside the code, a mathematical concept hidden inside the equation if you want.

apocryphe wrote:

I had theorized about that a long time ago but none believed me, now it's a fact : everything that comes from the source is actually encrypted so deeply in the code that they're not made of symbols-like code like the other programs, but instead the symbols themselves contain the little governing equation wich will determine the shape you see in Seraph. It's a code inside the code, a mathematical concept hidden inside the equation if you want.

You're pretty convinced. But for the rest of us, please state why this is considered a fact. (Re-)Establish it.

intell wrote:

apocryphe wrote: I had theorized about that a long time ago but none believed me, now it's a fact : everything that comes from the source is actually encrypted so deeply in the code that they're not made of symbols-like code like the other programs, but instead the symbols themselves contain the little governing equation wich will determine the shape you see in Seraph. It's a code inside the code, a mathematical concept hidden inside the equation if you want. You're pretty convinced. But for the rest of us, please state why this is considered a fact. (Re-)Establish it.

Maybe this helps? Or maybe not. Anyway: matrix-explained.com...

Kozar wrote:

The Gold code is first introduced as an explosion of chaotic fragments of light which are soon seen to be more organized and mathematical (fractals). These patterns are similar to the fractals seen in green code at the intro to Reloaded. We as viewers are drawn into the coding and are seemingly diving deeper geographically into it until we stop at the lowest point which is the bird’s eye view of the Machine City at the same height and angle as Neo "sees" it as he and Trinity freefall into the city. The scene then begins to reverse directions, albeit very quickly, until we as viewers are expelled from the gold code viewing and back out to the viewing of the green code. Take a moment now to imagine the path we take in reverse motion like stated earlier. We start outside the screen, then we move through the screen and are inside a virtual code construct, then we move into the bull glyph, then we dive down the side of one building down to the surface level, then we move into the actual coding of an everyday object (a car), then we move into a small section of the objects coding, then we are moved past much of the coding until we get to ONE individual random glyph (an unrecognizable glyph), we are then moved closer into a small section of just that ONE glyph to see that the glyph itself is made up of layers upon layers of more glyphs (information), we then penetrate deeper into the layers of THOSE glyphs until we get to what appears to be the deepest glyph in that part of the code which is a backwards number "7". As we penetrate the upper left elbow of that glyph we expect to see more glyphs right? Instead we are shown exactly what information is in all of the coding of the Matrix. Every small glyph which is made up of thousands of other glyphs which in turn are made up of thousands of glyphs, etcetera for countless layers, are all based out of one central piece of information. And that information is exactly what Neo sees when he is descending into the Machine City. Now the question we are faced with is why. Why are we shown that at the core of all information written into the Matrix, at the base of everything and everybody is that view of the machine city. I have thought very hard about this question and have come to two conclusions. In the first of my conclusions is that the particular view of the machine city is irrelevant and what matters more than the view is what it is a view of, The Machine City. When we examine this fact from a programmer’s point of view we will need more information. First consider that program we see is written in what is called a programming language. These languages are a conglomeration of other programming techniques that all have their roots in the same basic coding of computer language. That coding is called “Binary”, it is coding in its most simplistic form, including commands only to turn “on” or “off” single bits of information. These commands are the two numbers zero and one. This means that what we see at the base of all coding in the Matrix has its same computer language roots in zero and one, or put another way “01”, the name given by the machines for their first sovereign city.

intell wrote:

You're pretty convinced. But for the rest of us, please state why this is considered a fact. (Re-)Establish it.

Are you doing it on purpose ? I just said it was in the script !

Show me.

I guess he's talking about this:

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INT. TEA HOUSE - DAY Cautiously, Neo slides open the only door there is, revealing a man sitting cross-legged, bathed in the rays of afternoon light, sipping tea. His name is Seraph. NEO Hello? In the code world, Neo sees his true form; sitting Buddha-like in the surrounding swirl of code, a being of pure liquid light contained by a web of Matrix code that is written in the negative or rather with the absence of light.