»The problem is choice«

This thread is in response to the "fate of the redpills" thread, which temporarily veered off into discussing the problem of choice in the Matrix storyline. I felt that this topic easily deserves its own thread, so here I go.

Quote:

Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program; entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization.

No mention of choice yet (which in my opinion points to Smith's ignorance of the true problem and the big picture--not surprising for an agent), only the assumption that the problem was simply whether or not the Matrix contained misery and suffering. But let's see if the Architect can shed some more light on the subject.

Quote:

The Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art--flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another--an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. Neo: The Oracle. The Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice--even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

So there's more to the picture than what Smith described. The answer was NOT to introduce misery and suffering. As Neo so adequately put, the problem was choice--or rather, the lack of it.

Here's where the problem is: when you read that word "choice" you might automatically assume that what is meant is an internal decision made in the mind. If that's how you interpret the usage of this word at this point, then what it seems like the Architect is saying is that the Oracle came up with a way to give humans the ABILITY to choose. It would then logically follow that in the first two versions, humans did not have the ability to accept or reject the Matrix, and in the third version they did.

The difficulty with that, as hexediter has pointed out many times, is that this contradicts what actually happened. If humans in the first two versions were UNABLE to choose, then how were they ABLE to reject it? This cannot be the answer, because it makes no sense. But what if the word "choice" referred not to a mental decision made internally but to something given from an external source? Instead of it being an internal ABILITY it would be an external OPTION.

Think of the scene where Morpheus offers Neo the OPTION of taking the blue pill or the red pill. Morpheus is the external source offering two different pills to Neo. Neo then exercises his ABILITY to choose and selects the red pill. Two types of choices are presented in this picture: an EXTERNAL one and an INTERNAL one. I believe the choice that the Oracle added to the programming of the Matrix was an EXTERNAL one.

Let's see if this holds up. Does it make sense if the first two versions of the Matrix failed because no one was offered an EXTERNAL option to accept or reject it? It would seem that the Machines just assumed that everyone would like it, and never set up a system where people would actually be asked whether or not they wanted to stay. Once people started feeling like their world was a dream, they began to want to wake up from it. They accomplished this through their INTERNAL ability to make a choice to reject the programming.

At this point the Oracle arrives on the scene and introduces the EXTERNAL option given to people to accept or reject the Matrix. Once people were presented with the EXTERNAL OPTION to accept or reject it, the vast majority happily chose to use their INTERNAL ABILITY to choose to accept it.

Quote:

Morpheus: You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. The Oracle: Here, take a cookie. I promise, by the time you're done eating it, you'll feel as right as rain.

Nearly 99% of the human population chose the blue pill, and woke up in their beds feeling as right as rain, believing whatever they wanted to believe. This process was so successful, that it was determined that it could even be done subconsciously and have the exact same effect.

When the Oracle's experiment first began, she probably had agents (or whatever passed as agents back then) make the offer to the humans while they were fully conscious about what was going on. The humans would then make a conscious decision to accept the Matrix at which point the agent would give them something to ingest--like a pill or a cookie--that would make them forget about the meeting and what was discussed. What would remain, however, was a feeling of contentment that their world was real and everything was okay.

The Architect's exact words are, "...they were given a choice," not that they were given the ability to choose. As I explained above, these are two totally different ways of looking at the word "choice." Everything points to the idea that the choice was one that came from an external source. Humans have always had the ability to make internal decisions in every version of the Matrix. And that's the problem.

Quote:

If humans in the first two versions were UNABLE to choose, then how were they ABLE to reject it?

You mean ability to choose in general ? Or just to choose if to accept the Matrix ? Perhaps they couldnt choose to reject it consciously, but their mind couldnt function properly ("something's wrong with the world") subconsciously.

Quote:

Once people started feeling like their world was a dream, they began to want to wake up from it. They accomplished this through their INTERNAL ability to make a choice to reject the programming. At this point the Oracle arrives on the scene and introduces the EXTERNAL option given to people to accept or reject the Matrix. Once people were presented with the EXTERNAL OPTION to accept or reject it, the vast majority happily chose to use their INTERNAL ABILITY to choose to accept it.

You mean 99% of the population were "Cyphers" ? 99% willingly wanted to live in a dream world ? I would expect to see that high a number in a subconscious choice only. Not a conscious one.

I cant argue with your analysis on the words used for choice though. Well said.

A thought : in the first versions you say they were not given a choice to reject or accept it. And later they were. Since after the choice to accept it, their memory was erased of that event....how could they be different from a person that was never given this external choice? They both not remember choosing it. And it cant be somewhere subconsciously, since there is no memory at all. And even if the event of choosing did something to the brain (that made the person happy and stable), which could be done otherwise, why didnt they implant the memory of choosing to accept the Matrix , to everyone and have the 99% from the beginning ?

The Therion wrote:

Feral Boy wrote: If humans in the first two versions were UNABLE to choose, then how were they ABLE to reject it? You mean ability to choose in general ? Or just to choose if to accept the Matrix ? Perhaps they couldnt choose to reject it consciously, but their mind couldnt function properly ("something's wrong with the world") subconsciously.

There's never been a problem with the mind's ability to function in any of the versions of the Matrix. The problem is the Architect's attempts to DEAL WITH the way the human mind functions naturally. Humans can be irrational. They can make decisions based on emotion rather than logic. The Architect might be able to see the RESULTS of the emotion ("Already I can see the chain reaction—the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion…”) but he doesn’t understand the SOURCE of these emotions. He just can't comprehend them at all. His only recourse is to deal with them as a mathematician deals with variables.

But the solution wasn’t to give humans the ABILITY to choose, since they already had that. They exercised that ability by choosing to reject the Matrix en masse. Instead the solution was to present them with an OPTION. Instead of hoping that humanity would just blindly accept the Matrix without question and thereby dodging the issue, the Oracle suggested that humans should be informed directly about the situation and given the option to forget about it. And lo and behold it worked. Nearly 99% of all the test subjects chose to put the reality of the situation behind them and go about living out their lives.

The Therion wrote:

A thought : in the first versions you say they were not given a choice to reject or accept it. And later they were. Since after the choice to accept it, their memory was erased of that event....how could they be different from a person that was never given this external choice? They both not remember choosing it. And it cant be somewhere subconsciously, since there is no memory at all. And even if the event of choosing did something to the brain (that made the person happy and stable), which could be done otherwise, why didnt they implant the memory of choosing to accept the Matrix , to everyone and have the 99% from the beginning ?

You bring up a good point, so let me see if I can offer my own theory in response. I believe that the concept of nearly 99% of humanity choosing to accept the Matrix is a view that is representative of the Wachowski Brothers’ commentary on society in general. The idea here is that most people would rather live a comfortable lie than an uncomfortable truth. That’s the whole reason of having the character of Cypher—to really bring that point home. Cypher represents that aspect of humanity that would willingly give up their knowledge of the truth in order to go back into the dream world they once inhabited (“I don’t want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand?”). Apparently the idea of having your memory wiped still leaves a residual feeling of contentment that the Matrix is an acceptable reality. Cypher wasn’t worried about re-rejecting the Matrix later on after being reinserted.

I believe that the scene with Cypher and Agent Smith in the restaurant is a fairly decent example of the kind of theoretical face-to-face meeting I described. You have an agent which arrives on the scene and informs a human about the truth of the situation: the war between man and Machine, the darkened sky, the rows and rows of pods with humans plugged into them like slabs of meat, and the Matrix—all the things that we see in Second Renaissance. In fact, it could very well be that the Zion Archives illustrated in that particular anime is what the agents showed to the humans. The agents then offer them a blue pill and a red pill. They can either accept the Matrix and forget about the harshness of reality, or they can continue on with the knowledge of what’s really going on.

I suspect that the reason the Oracle’s experiment moved this option into the realm of the subconscious was because of the 1%. It’s not exactly desirable to have a certain portion of the population—even a small portion—knowing FOR SURE that their world is a virtual reality construct and that their physical body is plugged into a power plant somewhere “out there.” It was probably shown to be safer if the option was given to the subconscious mind, so that the test subject doesn’t feel like he KNOWS that he’s living in a dream world, he only SUSPECTS it. That way, any possible feelings of hostility toward a Machine race that enslaved humanity would not have a chance to form. At most, they would be like Neo (“You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up.”). They rejected the Matrix, yet they don’t really know why. It’s just a feeling they have, and they don’t know what to do about it.

And as far as implanting a false memory, I don’t believe that would have any stronger affect than the false reality of the Matrix itself. I believe that the movies try to illustrate that there is an aspect to humanity that transcends the false world that has been pulled over its eyes. So whether you put humans into a false reality or even give them false memories of accepting the false reality, there is still going to be a small uncontrollable portion that seeks to break free. It’s just like the chaos theory, where nature refuses to fit into nice organized boxes. Like the Zion rebels, nature itself has an affinity for disobedience. And there again you see that the problem is choice.

the therion wrote:

And even if the event of choosing did something to the brain (that made the person happy and stable), which could be done otherwise, why didnt they implant the memory of choosing to accept the Matrix , to everyone and have the 99% from the beginning?

That's because memory is irrelevant. Have you ever had a dream in which you acted different from how you would in "real life"?

Choice is something that is something you exercise all the time, not once in a while. Yet to you most of the time, you never even feel like its a choice at all. It is simply something you want to or must do. And this reminds me of Tozy and Eddyrocket, what they said in the "love" thread.

FeralBoy. Very good post, man. I'm not going to bother commenting on anything you said there because it is very well put and represents what I would have said myself and even better that what I probably would have said.

So I will go to the next level. The ORACLE. She has investigated the human psyche and that is not by far limited to studying the brain or mental issues. She has knowledge of thought itself and what makes up a person. More on this later.

Quote:

It was probably shown to be safer if the option was given to the subconscious mind, so that the test subject doesn’t feel like he KNOWS that he’s living in a dream world, he only SUSPECTS it.

In harmony with the way it was done before, I doubt the Arc would allow it to be done any differently.

The thing all of you need to keep in mind is that what we prefer is not related at all to what we know we "should" do unless we make it so in our decision-making process.

EDITED TO ADD:

Quote:

there is still going to be a small uncontrollable portion that seeks to break free. It’s just like the chaos theory, where nature refuses to fit into nice organized boxes. Like the Zion rebels, nature itself has an affinity for disobedience. And there again you see that the problem is choice.

That's "what this is ALL about." (Smith, M1) And this is what separates these films from other Sci-Fi that overgeneralises a person as being the sum of all his memories. Then what was he/she before there was anything to remember?

Zion is a catch (control) for the anomaly, it is not their to represent external choice, because their is no way Zion reaches everyone. The animatrix seems to show this when we see people who could be redpills but are not approached by zion. Maybe they are beyond the age... remember the "we have a rule... we never free a mind once it has reached a certain age" bit Morpheous said.

To me, it isn't that the Oracle introduces any new kind of choice to be made on any level, it's that she recognizes choice exists, and must be accounted for, but can't be solved or eliminated. The architect was trying to achieve 100% acceptance because that is how he works. He solves problems, counters variables one at a time. When you account for everything, their is no choice to be made, let alone understand. If you allow yourself not to be limited by the parameters of perfection, you allow yourself to create the solution where 99% accept the matrix. Which functions, but is fundamentally flawed, thus creating the contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked would threaten the system itself. Zion, combined with the path of the One, encompasses that check. Zion finds potentials, Zion is looking for the rebirth of their messiah. And Zion trains this individual once found, and molds him in a way that is designed to lead to certain characteristics. Zion itself is never a threat to the machines physically, and by itself (without the One) is not a real threat to the machines inside the matrix either, as the agents always win.

I'm not sure this is well written, but I'm tired and will stop here.

I wonder why the Architect programs the Matrix in such a way that the rules can be bent or even broken. The Trainman made Mobil Ave so that HE'S god. I wonder how come the Matrix seems to be so wonderfully suited to allowing the One to be god? You'd think the Architect would have changed the programming on that by now. Hmm...

And have both of you seen Inev's post in the "Fate of Redpills" thread?

Hex, you said, Zion is never really a threat until the One comes. That's it, isn't it. Now if you have a people and a leader, now you have a movement. So they made the leader sell his people up the river and disseminate his code 5 times already and worse, they made it seem and feel like its his and their choice to do so.

So why is the matrix programmed so? It was made to be a bit flexible for those in it to believe they really have some control over their lives (just like this world). So with that flexibility/lenience their comes the escalating possibility that people will take advantage of this and make choices that have unforseen consequences (anomalous).

I wanted to point everyone to a new thread I just started about the latest edition of The Sentinel from the game The Matrix Online. I highly recommend that everyone take a gander at it and post their thoughts. It will most definitely make for interesting conversation, I guarantee it.

well, if you think about it, his matrix was inadvertently responsible for creating virus Smith, which is about as god mode a thing you can create. Which is perhaps part of the reason they don't make any gods... absolute power can be currupting. And I don't think it's that the architect purposefully allows for the matrix to be "hacked" but more likely with such a huge simulation it is simply impossible to moniter everything all the time, especially when people are hacking in a way that is not easily noticed. Thus the agents...

Also don't think the matrix allows the One to be god, rather it can't prevent it. The anomaly allows the One to become god.

hexediter wrote:

Also don't think the matrix allows the One to be god, rather it can't prevent it. The anomaly allows the One to become god.

But it CAN prevent it, that's why I brought it up. The Trainman prevented it, and so can the Architect if he chose to. The reason he doesn't is to ALLOW it to happen. The One is DESIGNED. The One is a CONTROL MEASURE. The Architect isn't trying to stop the One--he created the concept of the One to solve the problem of the anomaly. Remember, the One doesn't derive his power from the code he carries. Rather, he's empowered in order to enable him to carry the code. And where does his power come from? The Source. And what is the code he carries? The anomaly. And what is the anomaly? The sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation. And why is the equation unbalanced? Because over 1% of the population rejects the Matrix. And how does the One fix this? He carries the rejections to the Source and makes a single affirmative decision to accept the Matrix, temporarily bringing the Matrix to 100% acceptance. Then the whole shebang starts over. Whew!

You're both right.

intell wrote:

You're both right.

How so?

I like your thought, expecially it's conclusion, but I still don't like the idea of creating the One by the machines.

To me, the trainman and his mobil Ave. are outside the power of the source. I don't think this makes Neo powerless, just that his power is more limited. The matrix isn't just one little train station, it is an entire simulated planet, and a shared expierence of that planet amoung billions of humans and programs. The rules of the matrix don't allow Neo to do the things he does, he is breacking those rules, which undoubtibly is probably causing problems itself. To me, Neo is powered by that which is running the entire machine civilization... the source. It doesn't matter what rules you make when Neo is embedded in the system bios and operating system underlying your program, you can't destroy him or prevent his power (well you can try), you can only attempt to control or counter him.

Perhaps it has something to do with the humans in the pod's being the ones feeding both the source, and the anomaly, I honestly don't know. But it has always been my opinion that the anomaly, while effecting the matrix, is operating from the source... which might be why he has been unable to eliminate it. As the source itself seems ever to be linked with the anomaly.

Hex, I think it might be helpful at this point if you and I define what we mean by the word “anomaly” in relation to how it’s used in the Matrix stories.

ANOMALY The fact that over 1% of the population rejects the Matrix

SYSTEMIC ANOMALY Identical to above, but with the added inference that the anomaly affects the entire system. Eventually, if left unchecked, it would lead to a system-wide crash.

INTEGRAL ANOMALY Simply put, all of the rejections added together into a single quantity. This sum is the code Neo carries.

The anomaly isn't simply people rejecting the matrix, it is rather created by people rejecting the matrix. You can't see it, touch it, or taste it, but it does exist somewhere, and my guess is that it exists within the source itself.

Everything else is fine and I have agreed with for quite some time now.

hexediter wrote:

The anomaly isn't simply people rejecting the matrix, it is rather created by people rejecting the matrix. You can't see it, touch it, or taste it, but it does exist somewhere, and my guess is that it exists within the source.

Hex, I think that what you’re saying here is that the anomaly is not just referring to the rejection, but the RESULTS of the rejection as well. If so, this is where I disagree with you. Bear with me for a second or two while I explain why, since at first it’s going to sound like fanboy nitpicking until I give my reasons for the importance behind the distinction.

The Architect wrote:

As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic—creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

Here the Architect says that there is a CAUSE—the anomaly—and there is an EFFECT—the fluctuations. One comes as a result of the other. The reason for separating these two concepts is because they both have unique solutions.

Let’s deal with the effect first. The fluctuations are what eventually lead to a system-wide crash. I’m fairly sure that we’re all in agreement on that. The solution to this problem is to reload the Matrix. However, there’s one little problem that needs to be taken care of before the reload can occur—the anomaly must be dealt with.

If it weren’t for the anomaly—which is the rejection of the Matrix by over 1% of the population—then all the Architect would have to do to fix the problem would be to reload the Matrix. He wouldn’t need the One, he wouldn’t need Zion, and he wouldn’t need a Path of the One (the prime program) to facilitate it all. And that would be true whether the One is designed or not. In other words, if the Architect could make it all better by just reloading the Matrix, he would do so even if the One—who would have sprouted up at some point as a natural consequence of the anomaly—is still running around in the Matrix somewhere.

But the Architect DOES need the One. He CAN’T simply reload the Matrix to take care of the fluctuations caused by the anomaly. Why? Because the anomaly itself must be taken care of first. The Matrix must be brought to 100% acceptance. And only the One can accomplish that. The anomaly doesn’t reside in the Source, it resides in the One. It needs to be brought to the Source so that it can be disseminated, which is via a single act of accepting the programming that undoes all the rejections of the programming. The Architect tells Neo that his life is the sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation. The One is “one” with the anomaly--it is the code he carries. His purpose is to bring it to the Source. Like Christ, the One carries the “sins” of the Matrix upon him and washes them clean in the Source. This temporarily brings the Matrix to 100% acceptance. At that very moment, when the anomaly does not exist anymore, the Architect will quickly reload the Matrix.

The One takes care of the anomaly (the cause), and the Architect takes care of the fluctuations (the effect). And for a while the Matrix is free of the anomaly, at least until the first schmuck rejects it. Then the anomaly is once again created, and the march toward the end of the cycle begins anew.

and I quote lol...

Architect:"Please. As I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of choice at a near unconcious level. While this anwser functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked, would threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablity of disaster."

The choice is made, the anwser functions, it is flawed, and creates the systemic anomaly. The anomaly is never in my opinion refering to the rejection, that is choice, the anomaly is the creation of this choice.

Now this is where I get all crazy in my thinking because their is no evidence to back me up, but by my thinking the anomaly does reside in the source and is empowered by the source, but not as something that can be found, or deleted. It is like nasty spywhere that you would have to delete your entire registry just to get rid of, and in doing so your computer crashes. The anomaly as it exists in Neo is the only way by my thinking that the machines can get ahold of it. This being the case, I still think that perhaps killing Neo (if it were possible) would essentially remove his choice and they could just take the code from his carcuss.

To me the anomaly itself is the link between Neo and the Source, which would make Neo entirely a result of the anomaly, with no machine input into who became the one whatsoever. Once the code is obtained, the anomaly is patched or deleted or nullified or however you wanna say it. He is the result of an anomaly, and his power streches from the matrix all the way to where it came from, the source. To me, where else could this anomaly be besides in the source, since we are never told the source created Neo.

Hex, I really do hear what you’re saying—especially because I used to think the same way. The reason I believe differently now is when the Architect made a statement in The Matrix Online that unequivocally defined the “integral anomaly” as the One. I had gone back and forth and all over the place trying to define the integral anomaly—what it was, how it worked and how it was created. But once I knew that it was for sure referring to the One, I started rearranging all the puzzle pieces based on that.

Go with me for a second, and you can see where I’m coming from. Let’s start with the idea that the “integral anomaly” is the One, as revealed by the Architect himself in the game. I also want to start with the assumption that the simplest solution is usually the correct one. So I looked at the Architect’s speech to see what other phrases were also applied to the One. The Architect states that Neo’s life is the sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation. So now my thinking went like this:

Neo = integral anomaly
Neo = sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation

Therefore, using simple algebra…

integral anomaly = sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation

Logically, this works very well, because the word “integral” does in fact refer to a sum. Anything that is integral is one whole made up of several parts. So I took that to mean that the remainder of the unbalanced equation is made up of many parts.

The next thing was to try to figure out what was being added together into a sum total anomaly, and what the unbalanced equation was. Look at all the references that the Architect makes in regard to equations. His job is to try to create 100% acceptance of the Matrix. Anything less than 100% acceptance means he has an unbalanced equation. With the Oracle’s help, he now has an equation that is nearly 99% perfect. But that tiny portion is what sets everything off. The equation is unbalanced because of one lousy percent. And what sets this 1% apart from the other 99%? A choice. No more, no less. 99% choose to accept the Matrix, and 1% choose to reject it.

So now we have a more complete picture. The One is a human who represents a gathering together of what’s left over from an unbalanced equation. And what’s left over? A bunch of rejections.

I then looked at the fact that there is code that Neo carries. I racked my brain for the longest time trying to figure out what that code was. The answer was right in front of my face the whole time. The code Neo carries represents the sum total of all the rejections. How much more obvious can it be? This ties right in with the whole symbolism of Neo as Christ, where rejections can be equated as sins that the messiah figure carries on his shoulders. I’m not a big fan of using symbolism to prove technical matters of Matrix “science” (I usually believe it should be the other way around—sorry Intell) but I have to admit it’s difficult for me to deny.

So in summary, Neo carries the entire load of rejections that are in the form of code. This big pile of rejections is the integral anomaly. Therefore, each individual rejection (a single part of the sum total) is simply an anomaly. Only when they’re all gathered together are they referred to as an “integral” anomaly.

These rejections don’t grant Neo any power whatsoever. They’re just code. But the One needs power to carry all those rejections, and that’s why he is connected to the Source. Remember, even Neo understood after his encounter with the Architect that the One is a control measure. The One is not the problem—it is a manufactured solution to the problem. And the problem is the anomaly.

And to answer what you said about the flawed answer creating the systemic anomaly, that’s exactly right. The answer (which is to grant humans a choice) created the systemic anomaly (the wrong choice), which in turn created the fluctuations (the glitch that makes the Matrix crash). And that’s the rat that ate the malt that lay in the house that the Architect built.

I agreed with just about everything except the last 2 paragraphs, and maybe the one before those.

Quote:

The One is not the problem—it is a manufactured solution to the problem. And the problem is the anomaly.

No, the path of the One is a control measure and the prophecy was a lie which was never intended to be fullfilled. It was influenced in such a way to maximize the potential of certain results. I simply can't believe that the machines would be willing to give any human the power to connect to the source, moreover I'm not sure they are capable of giving that power even if they wanted too, as it seems they needed Neo to delete Smith not because he had the anomalous code, but because of his power with the source.

So choice creates the anomaly and the anomaly creates fluctuations, but this creates a dilehma you have not yet addressed. This anomaly exists somewhere, as something unto itself, and not just the integral version.

I tried to explain in my last post, but I didn't hit upon the word I wanted. Alas, I have found it, the anomaly is integrated into the source, the operating system, the main frame. My reason for thinking this is because the architect tells us he has been unable to get rid of it besides his best efforts, and some pieces of spyware/virus/malware basically integrate themselves into your operating system. Meaning that anti-virus can't be relied upon to fix your network. You have to wipe everything, and hope you saved your data on back up and then reinstall because their simply is no way to get rid of it. While for alot of spyware this is mostly just an inconvienience, and a performance hit, but with more malicious programs, over time your network will get progressivly worse untill it is simply unmanegable. Neo and the anomaly, are both drawing from the source, and really are a part of it, which to me explains why they cannot be gotten rid of by the machines. They either wipe everything (lose crops) or they get the info they need from Neo to clean it up and reboot.

By the way I get the whole Christ thing and I agree with you, and I don't think I'm even trying to argue with you on that point.

My point, is that it seems more likely to me that Neo is the direct result of the systemic anomaly, which seems most likely to be integrated with the Source. However, I do feel that the integral anomaly is expected (obviously) and Zion and the prophecy are built around this individual. It just doesn't feel right to me for Neo to be a machine creation, when all the time they seem so afraid of him. I don't really know what else to say, so I suppose I should stop.

Remember when I said, "You're both right."?

Here's what I mean:

MAIN POINTS

FeralBoy: The One is a planned control measure for the unplanned anomaly. The anomaly is the rejection/rebellion

Hexediter: The One is as unplanned as the anomaly he is the eventuality of. -> It is the Path of the One that is planned.

Everything else you all say is right on. Well actually, the details on HOW/WHY the Source empowers the One that Feral speaks of is something I'll have to ponder on. And that's a good thing.

Hex is right. Let's say Matrix #1 allowed for one way of living and it didn't last. Matrix #2 allowed for a different way of living but it still only allowed for one way. So, of course it was doomed, too. Matrix #3 allows for let's say 99 ways. Still there are ways that the system does not allow for. Kinda reminds me of the society I live in. But as I was saying, the malcontent is low this time but still happening.

The savior or messiah is coming so the path of the One is perhaps a way to make him go back and get rid of the rebellion at the same time. Behind the savior is the Source but if the Source is the machine mainframe, whose side is the Source on? Well how many sides are there?

Hex, please don’t stop yet, because I think you’re on to something. I am very limited in my understanding of how computers work, so I’d like us to explore your description of the anomaly as a spyware-type program.

One thing that was revealed in The Matrix Online game is that when the Matrix was rebooted after Neo died, the prime program was NOT reinserted. In other words, the reloading of the Matrix and the reinsertion of the prime program are two completely different processes. I did some research on the phrase “prime program” and discovered that it’s actually a very old programming term which refers to a subprogram within the larger main program that has a single entry point, a single exit point and any number of decision nodes in between. Based on that description, I theorized that the prime program is in fact the Path of the One. If the prime program is the Path of the One, then it ends when the One reaches the Source to disseminate the code he carries (the Oracle verifies that the Path of the One ends at the Source). The beginning, or reinsertion, of the prime program would then be the selection of 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. But since Zion was not destroyed this time, the reinsertion of the prime program was aborted.

If you agree with that, let’s build up a theory about the anomaly from scratch—forgetting all the stuff we just wrote about. What would be your understanding of how the anomaly is taken care of in light of a subroutine like the Path of the One being inserted into the main program of the Matrix to deal with it? This is not a challenge or an attempt to prove you wrong. I want to work with you to find a solution we can both live with. Since I’m hampered in my understanding of computers, I’m leaning on you to help me out. One thing that’s still fuzzy to me is how a decision made in the mind can end up as code. Obviously the Architect is looking for a solution to a code-based problem because the prime program (his solution to the problem) is a subroutine within a program—in other words, a program designed to deal with a program anomaly.

intell wrote:

Well actually, the details on HOW/WHY the Source empowers the One that Feral speaks of is something I'll have to ponder on.

Admittedly, this is one of those areas I’m still very fuzzy on myself. We are given a very vague explanation of the One’s connection to the Source, which is one of the main reasons we all come to different conclusions about it. The main reason I state that Neo has a direct planned connection to the Source is because I HAVE TO believe it as a consequence of the rest of my theory. If it’s ever disproven somehow (in an official manner, such as new info being provided in MxO), then it’ll be back to the drawing board for me. Wouldn’t be the first time for me, and it certainly won’t be the last.

intell wrote:

Hex is right. Let's say Matrix #1 allowed for one way of living and it didn't last. Matrix #2 allowed for a different way of living but it still only allowed for one way. So, of course it was doomed, too. Matrix #3 allows for let's say 99 ways. Still there are ways that the system does not allow for. Kinda reminds me of the society I live in. But as I was saying, the malcontent is low this time but still happening. The savior or messiah is coming so the path of the One is perhaps a way to make him go back and get rid of the rebellion at the same time. Behind the savior is the Source but if the Source is the machine mainframe, whose side is the Source on? Well how many sides are there?

I thought of a great analogy last night that describes the way I view the Oracle’s introduction of choice into the Matrix. Imagine a country where the government is a dictatorship. The people have no choice about who is in authority and are expected to simply go along with things. The people get fed up with it and revolt, with the country spiraling into chaos. Amid the chaos arises another dictatorship. Some things are different, but they are basically superficial differences at best. The people, who were fed up with being ruled by a dictatorship before, rise up in revolt a second time. The country crumbles and chaos ensues yet again.

Up comes a third dictatorship, but this time the new dictator has hired a specialist in human behavior to help him achieve success. The specialist determines that if they deceive the people into thinking that the government is a democracy, they will become docile. The dictator places voting booths in every city in the country. The people flock to them and place their vote. To reward the dictator for giving them a choice, almost the entire population places their trust in him. The masses feel empowered and the dictatorship ends up lasting much longer than the first two.

The people are unaware that the dictator is only allowing the vote in the first place because his specialist assured him that the results would be in his favor. If the people instead voted against him, then the voting booths would be taken away. In all three situations, the people had the ability to choose. In all three situations, the government was a dictatorship. The only difference between the first two dictatorships and the third was the presence of a voting booth.

The reinsertion of the prime program and the dissiminating of the code Neo carries appear to be two sepperate events. Exactly what both do however, is really up to debate. The prime program is re-inserted, which seems to me to suggest that this whole "cycle" thing is re-cycled, but this is done only after the temporary dissemination of a portion of the code he caries. Which lends me to believe that the old anomaly is gotten rid of, and the new one is in the process of growing and then eventually being assigned to some individual.

As for how or why a choice in the mind ends up as code... well, don't forget the entire matrix is one huge neural simulation. Meaning that everything in our mind relates to the coding, as the matrix has to act in a way that appears "real" to our mind. So back to the question, how or why? Can't say, we aren't told, and for plot purposes, we simply don't need to know those details. All we need to know is what he tells us, that the anomaly exists, and that it cannot (or has not) be eliminated. I'm rather unsure the prime program is his solution either(especially the idea of it as he obviously is a creater), as it may very well owe at least some of it's existance to the Oracle.

As for what happened at the end of revolutions... this is even foggier still. As you could postulate that Neo did essentially return to source, and disseminate litteraly in the source itself becomeing a holy ghost of sorts in the christian mythos as he relates to the matrix. The prime program had to be aborted for obvious reasons regardless of whether the code was disseminated or not, simply because Zion still exists, and everyone now know's more of the truth about their history. Trust me when I say that computer knoweledge can only help you to a small degree when it comes to the matrix films, as science fiction streches beyond what is now possible into what we do not know or can yet comprehend.

To me, the source is spirit, or pure conciousness. It is on no-ones side in particuliar, although it is a machine creation of sorts, it is powered by humans in the matrix. It is a place of birth, death, and rebirth, which is powered by our very life eneregy. All come from the source, and often we lose our way, become tainted, dissalusioned, or perhaps "vanity and curruption". Return to source, is what this is about, and it's about everyone getting their together (man and machine). Either they will be redeemed together, or they will both perish. One way or another, it has to end.

For me personally, I like the idea of this anomaly, which is formed by the 1%, residing in the source because I like to think that this anomaly is completely beyond direct control. This anomaly in part exists because man and machine combined don't have it right yet, as the Oracle might have thought... we can do better then this. And the source, which is pure spirit, reacts accordingly.

Hex, it sounds like on the foundational stuff that you touched on just now, we are in complete agreement. The dissemination of the code is definitely separate from the reinsertion of the prime program. This is true even though they're closely related, since one kicks off the other. But you're right about the specifics being up for debate. All we need to know is that it's a temporary solution at best, because (as you said), even though the old anomaly is taken care of, another one is just around the corner.

I liked your point about the prime program not necessarily being the Architect's idea. I've been thinking lately about my preconceived notions, and that's definitely one of them. It's simply not mentioned whose idea it was, and even though we can assume that it was the Architect's, it's only an assumption at best.

I also wonder about how exactly the anomaly was taken care of at the end of Revolutions. It almost seems to be one of those things that is potentially just lumped in there with all the other things that happened at the same time. In the midst of all that satori-ness going on, somehow the code Neo carries is disseminated. But this is also just an assumption. Perhaps in MxO it will be revealed that not only was the anomaly NOT taken care of, but that it's growing exponentially with the increased number of people who have begun rejecting the Matrix. Yikes!