»Fate of Natural Redpills«

I'm looking for theories about something....

First, let me define a term so I can more clearly communicate this question. I define "natural redpill" to be a person who rejects a part of the reality of the Matrix but who is not discovered by the Oracle and identified as a Potential, nor are they discovered by Zionians hacking the Matrix and given a red pill. Just a person who rejects a part of the Matrix on their own and goes about life in the Matrix their own way.

What do you think actually happens with a natural redpill if left to themselves? Do they eventually die inside the Matrix from their own rejection, or do they wake up on their own and get flushed and sent to drown like Neo?

For a while I always assumed that natural redpills just eventually woke up like Neo. But from "Kid Story" (The Animatrix) we know that the kid is the first documented case of "self-substantiation". This doesn't necessarily mean SS doesn't happen all the time, but it certainly casts doubt upon the assumption that all natural redpills eventually wake up. The Kid is the first slave that any Zionian rebel has seen wake himself up in 100 years.

We know from M1 that "entire crops were lost" when everyone rejected the Matrix, but we (or at least I) don't know for certain that these humans died from the rejection itself while inside the Matrix, or if they all woke up and were slaughtered by sentinels. Not only that, but the redpills of the current Matrix are operating in a totally different system than those in the first two Matrix attempts, so the first Matrix failures may not be good comparison points when thinking about current redpills.

My weak theory at this point: In "World Record" (again from The Animatrix), a high-profile redpill is being supressed. If it weren't for the fact that this athlete is known all over the world, I'm thinking that maybe the system would have just killed him. Even though he provides power to the machines, he's doing more harm than good through all the errors and anomalies he causes in the running of the Matrix by his denial of reality. So I'm thinking that whether or not natural redpills die or wake themselves up, the system kills them first anyway so they stop causing errors in the system.

Criticisms? Other theories?

My theory is that they walk around for the rest of their lives with a "splinter in their mind." They can't accept the world around them as real, yet they live in it nonetheless. Some probably go crazy and end up in mental institutions. Some possibly create cults around their beliefs, which might get the attention of agents (wouldn't that be a fun little storyline for the Matrix comics).

I believe an excellent illustration of what you're talking about comes from the movie Dark City, where a cop who had been studying the city they were trapped in slowly went insane and jumped in front of a subway train, believing that death was his only real escape. Chilling, but it makes sense. If you really and truly believed you were trapped in a dream and couldn't wake up, how far would you go to escape that dream? After all, you know what they say happens if you die in a dream....

I've wondered about this myself. The offer of choice, to me, seems to include a natural addendum that those who make the choice are allowed it. In other words, the machines would not kill or repress someone who legitimately wanted to leave the Matrix.

But then we have World Record. Dan frees his mind all by himself. But the machines repress him and demand that he sit down. What makes him different from any othe red pill? Why is he not contacted or connected to the Zionists? Surely they would have found him, he is world renouned.

The only difference between him and a regular red pill (as stated in the episode) is that Dan frees his mind not through questioning and seeking the answer, but through a central focusing of will.

So here's where that leads me- I think that most redpills become so by seeking out the exit. They actively engage in groups and activities that will lead them to Zion and bring attention to the fact that on some level they want out.

But Dan is a true anomaly. His will is absolute and pure when he runs. If he could harness that purity, imagine what he could do to the Matrix. What if that purity of will is what produces the true "integral anomaly?" If you follow the school that the One is just a path of control ascribed to an anomaly and that the original anomaly didn't follow this path, then how was the original anomaly different? Beyond just existing before the path, how did he/she ever free their mind without a Morpheus to lead them on a holy quest?

What if the true anomaly freed his/her mind through a pure focusing of will in the way that Dan does in world record. And what if these are the only truely natural redpills? The only ones who can take the choice even when it is not offered to them.

Cap, I like where you're going with that. I had a theory about how the first cycle of Matrix 3.0 took place, and I imagined that the emergence of the integral anomaly (the One) was totally unexpected. He was able to free himself from the Matrix and then his physical body as well. That last part is much more difficult to explain since his muscles would be useless. But supposing that he was somehow able to do even that, then the prime program (the Path of the One) would be created to take care of the next emergence of the integral anomaly and would be instituted at the beginning of the second cycle. That would mean that somehow this first One would not only have to be able to free his mind from the Matrix, his body from the pod, and some more people from the Matrix--not to mention build the city of Zion--but he would then have to do an about-face and allow Zion to be destroyed and go along with the Architect's wishes to rebuild Zion and keep his trap shut about what's really going on. What would it take to influence this first One and change his mind? Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? That's a prequel story I'd absolutely love to see.

Awesome thoughts, Feral Boy!

Since Neo can stop the sentinals, what if the first anomaly figured out how to not just stop them, but use them? Then he could have an army of machines to help him get out of his pod and build Zion (just a thought).

And for the black mail, well the answer to that could lie in the Architect's statement- "However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility of the death of every human being in this world."

It's definitely an Animatrix episode or prequel that I'd like to see

CaptPostMod wrote:

Since Neo can stop the sentinals, what if the first anomaly figured out how to not just stop them, but use them? Then he could have an army of machines to help him get out of his pod and build Zion (just a thought).

I had that thought as well. I've always wondered if the first One was more powerful than any of the following Ones--including Neo. I picture him as having the power of the hero from Dark City, who was able to reshape the city with his mind. Morpheus even states this plainly:

Quote:

When the Matrix was first built, there was a man born inside who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was he who freed the first of us, taught us the truth. As long as the Matrix exists the human race will never be free. After he died the Oracle prophesied his return and that his coming would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, bring freedom to our people.

We have here some interesting ideas. Now let's assume this is all true and see where it leads.

1) the first One could change anything in the Matrix by will alone
2) the Oracle prophesied his return
3) when he returns the Matrix will be destroyed, the war will be over and freedom will be brought to humanity

Indeed, this is an extremely powerful individual, as indicated by the first point. Not even Neo displayed this kind of power. Not that he wasn't able to, but the fact that he never did makes it seem like he had not [yet] reached that capacity.

The second point could be a reference to the repeating of the cycles, but it's possible that it was a two-fold prophecy where she's referring not just to the next One who will eventually pop up but also to the literal return of the first One.

The third point is something that I believe will happen. The Matrix is a chrysalis. It has a purpose. But that purpose will be met at some point in the future. And when its purpose is over, it will no longer be necesssary, because it will be transcended. The war may be over at the moment, but there is every indication in the Matrix Online game that this is a temporary situation that will soon end. That means that Neo's sacrifice was not permanent. Will he somehow return and fix it? Or is that a job for the first One? Time will tell.

Detective's Story shows a guy who met Trinity and went crazy afterwards, probably from learning the truth. It also says another guy found her but he dissapeared(took the red pill?)

Feral,

The Architect points out that 99% accept the programming of the current version. It doesn't seem like this statistic would have a huge purpose in the conversation (especially for the Architect, who is a machine) if 100% of all humans were able to be successfully used for power. But you're saying that even those who reject any part of the Matrix - 100% of all humans who don't swallow a red pill - are actually still being used for energy. To your credit, it does seem to make sense since Neo, the biggest "natural redpill" of them all, is in his late 20s or early 30s by the time Morpheus found him, and he probably would have continued living his mundane life if Morpheus hadn't come along.

So here is a splinter in my mind when operating under your theory: why bother with the One? Why have Zion? Why even have Agents? If the system stops creating the One and wipes Zion out of existence, then we're simply left with 99% people accepting the Matrix and 1% rejecting it, but even those who reject it (by your theory) are still providing power to the system. Heck, even those waking themselves up can still apparently be forced to accept the Matrix, as we've already pointed out from "World Record". If Dan can be forced into compliance, then it sure seems like anyone could be forced.

Still operating under your theory, before the system gets too unstable from system errors resulting from various forms of rejection, all the machines would have to do is "reset" the system - they can certainly do this, as we see in M3. I realize that Neo has returned to the Source at that point (by other means than what the machines intended, of course), and this supposedly enables the machines to restart the system. But why? Why can't the machines just restart the system at any point in time? The system can read and write anything it wishes into the memories of people. We especially learn this from the "Goliath" Matrix comic...

Surprised, that is the exact problem I had with my theory. I kept asking people on the forum why Zion had to be created if all you had to do was let the 1% wander around. They don't know about the virtual construct, they don't know that rules can be bent, they don't know about the war between man and machines, they don't know anything. They're harmless and easily picked off. If they happen to even get an inkling of the truth, they attract attention to themselves and they get wiped out.

A similar complaint was brought out by another poster (can't remember who) who wondered why the agents weren't programmed with way more power. Why even limit them in the way that they are? But that's another thread.

The only explanation I could think of for a long time was that when the Architect agreed to allow the choice to accept or reject the Matrix, he HAD to allow Zion to exist so that the choice to reject the Matrix was not a lie. I proposed that machines don't lie (especially the Architect), and that if there's going to be the option to reject the Matrix, then by his own "moral" code, he has to create the ability to leave. What good is a choice to leave a room if there's no actual door? That explanation felt kinda hollow and lame (and still does), but it was the best I could come up with.

You could also file it under "Necessary Plot Devices," where it is necessary that it be so in order for there to be a story. It's not pretty, but we all have to accept these sorts of things, especially in sci-fi.

I think the Architect has to allow the choice because if he does not the "natural redpills" will develop into full on anomalies of their own. They won't just wander around questioning, they'd all learn to change everything any way they wanted. You can see how this would quickly lead to a system crash. What happens if one hacker gets into your system and mucks around? Now imagine if hundreds of matrix-hackers gained full system control. There would be a system crash.

So the solution is to "allow" the choice to leave. Instead of remaining in the matrix, those who show anomalous desires are flushed from it and exiled to Zion. This keeps them at a controlled level and mostly out of the rest of those that accept the matrix's way.

However, I don't think the system was designed so much as recycled. Initially an anomaly arose to full power on his/her own. He/she completely mucked about in the matrix and freed all kinds of people. The Matrix crashed. That was when this "allowing" of choice arose and the prophecy was introduced. Both are designed to keep that original anomalous event from re-occuring by turning the anomaly into a controlled and calculated event instead of an uncontrolled and unpredictable element.

This may sound off subject, but I need to have a question answered. Is Neo the only One who rejected the Matrix at the beginning? In other words, is it a coincidence that he was part of the 1%, or was that planned? There are consequences for how this question is answered.

Also (okay, more than one question) were the Potentials really potential Ones, or were they there just for show? In other words, was Neo the only person who could become the One, or could any of the Potentials (or maybe any of the redpills) become the One?

CaptPostMod,

It is an interesting theory that redpills would all develop into full-blown anomalies such as Neo, but I'm not sure what kind of support there is for that theory other than "it's possible / it could be" - can you support it?

I have a theory that may bring smiles to your faces because it fits so many things so well... EXCEPT the theory works best if redpills actually exit the system for whatever reason (wake up on their own, machines wake them up, or they die from "rejectionitis").

Feral Boy:

I believe Neo's being part of the 1% was planned. The Architect speaks of "designing" the One when talking about how Ones are given a special affinity toward the human race (love). Neo is a summation of anomalies, and I don't think there is some magic anomaly phantom collecting up various redpill anomalous errors and placing them in one place. Such a thing requires conscious effort on the part of some computer system administrator... such as the Oracle.

I don't believe the Potentials were potential Ones in the way that any of them could become the One if given the proper training. On the surface, the Oracle is indeed putting on a show: Morpheus and others need to believe that the Oracle is dedicated to the same mission they are of finding the One. But there is another purpose for Potentials being there that is much deeper and much more important: the Oracle is still fulfilling her original purpose that she was given as a machine in the very beginning. She's studying "certain aspects of the human psyche". I believe this is really why the Potentials are there. And honestly, until your post, I always took "Potential" to mean potential redpill / Zionian, not potential One. This original purpose of the Oracle helps to explain why the Oracle, at the end of M3, has evolved past all other machines: she is the first machine to make an irrational choice.

I know how certain questions can seem off-subject but I'm sure it's not - I'm looking forward to what "consequences" you bring to these answers.

Lets consider the fact that to some extent we are natural
red pills, our being here in some way shows our rejection
of the system of control called the matrix.

As with most of the matrix questions, I guess the ideas
we put forward has alot to do with our paths we take
with the film. I think Surprised stated a very important
idea in his first post, the idea that if you could SS
chances are you could drown.

Which brings me to the first one. How is it possible
that he could have got out then built zion and started
freeing other minds, this is of course given the
evidence that the machine matrix has always being
a simulation for the bodies in VATS.

The Archie talks about a degree of control for
the anomalys. I think that the kids story is one
of control. If our minds are the natural red pills
then a control system to counter this would be
to write a suicide program. So instead of this
natural red finding his true potential within the
matrix, he dicides to try for the unknown
world which may or may not be his final end.

The matrix question itself is another way of
containing the mind of the natural red, because
instead of that anamaly going on to find his
potential his mind is loop in the question.

My advice for the natural red pill would be
to stop looking in the mirror and take a look
at the matrix behind you.

READ AGAIN!

Surprised wrote:

CaptPostMod, It is an interesting theory that redpills would all develop into full-blown anomalies such as Neo, but I'm not sure what kind of support there is for that theory other than "it's possible / it could be" - can you support it?

Well I want to reiterate that actual "redpills" (those who had taken the red pill to be free) I don't think will naturally develop into anomalies. But anyone who can figure out the Matrix is an illusion for themselves without the Zion dogma (Dan from world record), I don't see why they wouldn't.

My support is largely theological. The Wachowski's pull from many religions it's true, but they mainly seem to focus on Gnostic and Hindi beliefs. Both Hinduism and Gnosticism put forth the idea that all people are at their core one God. That we are all a piece of one greater consciousness/reality which anyone could tap into if they applied themselves properly. So if that is the theological foundation of the films, it wouldn't make sense that only Neo can do the things he does. It doesn't fit with the world view the Wachowski's are putting forward.

Ιf i started to see weird things, or started being able to suddenly DO weird things , that would really hint me that something's wrong ! And if i started hearing of others who can do weird things as well, that would alarm me even more.So i agree with CaptPostMod, that redpills eventually would become "problems".

Hi CaptPostMod,

I completely respect others' way of thinking and I'm not going to say they're wrong! But for the Wachowskis (in my opinion), symbolism, philosophy, religion, politics and other higher meanings do not come first - they come second, layered on top of a good science fiction story (and for me that is what makes the higher meanings so brilliant - you don't even have to see them to understand the story). For one thing, I see just as much Christianity, Judaism, Greek mythology, etc. as I see of Hinduism etc.

Second, you said "...it wouldn't make sense that only Neo can do the things he does." But it seems like we were handed clues to the contrary on a silver platter (some of these are paraphrased):

Morpheus: How is he?
Tank: Ten hours straight. He's a machine.

Mouse: Jesus Christ, he's fast. Take a look at his neural-kinetics, they're way above normal.

How did you do that?
Neo: Do what?
Trinity: You moved like they do. I've never seen anyone move that fast.

There is no question that the Wachowskis are trying to establish that Neo is not 100% human - he has been "programmed" - either that or his hardware has been modified. And here's the key: all of these things were observed before Neo even believed he is the One.

In Hinduism, etc., someone needs to first "realize" the truth before they can benefit from the truth. But Neo is kind of like Anakin Skywalker: the potential from the very beginning was way off the charts, unlike other humans in the Matrix.

Surprised wrote:

There is no question that the Wachowskis are trying to establish that Neo is not 100% human - he has been "programmed" - either that or his hardware has been modified.

When was his hardware modified? You're right, he is being programmed by following a routine known as the Path of the One. And as I say that traps everyone near him as well. But when was his hardware modified.

Not when he was plugged into the matrix and in the hands of the machines because Morpheus says- "If they knew what I know, you'd probably be dead."

So unless we discount what Morpheus says, then the machines didn't know that Neo was the One until after he was already out of the Matrix pod. So when did they have the opportunity to modify his hardware?

Quote:

Not when he was plugged into the matrix and in the hands of the machines because Morpheus says- "If they knew what I know, you'd probably be dead."

I think thats just Morpheus's opinion. And i think we get from the films that Morpheus wasnt always correct about the whole thing.

Quote:

When was his hardware modified? You're right, he is being programmed by following a routine known as the Path of the One. And as I say that traps everyone near him as well. But when was his hardware modified.

Allow me to quote the Architect in M2:

"Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication - a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One."

I don't see any reason why we are not supposed to take the Architect literally. I believe the movies become most clear when all quotes of machines are taken absolutely literally... and especially the words of the Architect, being the machine of total cold precision that he is. I suppose you could interpret the "design" process to be the Path of the One, but I think this requires a more figurative approach to analyzing what machines say, which doesn't make as much sense to me.

Quote:

Not when he was plugged into the matrix and in the hands of the machines because Morpheus says- "If they knew what I know, you'd probably be dead."

The Agents have no idea who the system anomaly is, but the Architect does. Did you notice all the Architect's monitors zooming in to Neo when he was being interrogated by Agents in the beginning of M1? Just because the Architect knows something doesn't mean he needs to tell the Agents - they will find out soon enough.

Quote:

So when did they have the opportunity to modify his hardware?

If Neo is assumed to have been designed, then this step actually follows without any stretch of imagination. Altering DNA and/or modifying the "programming" of Neo's brain at various points would be very mundane alterations in the year 2700 or whenever it might be at that point. Machines have obviously mastered knowledge of the human brain and body, with exception possibly to human spirit/will... perhaps they enabled the other 80-90% of Neo's brain (the part of our brains that scientists say we don't use). Who knows what they did, but all I know is what the Architect said - Neo was designed.

Am I right in thinking that your theory is that anyone could become the One if they are placed on the same "Path" as Neo from age 25 or 30? If that's what your theory is, I would consider that the Oracle tells Neo he "has the gift". Again, if we take her as literally as possible, this means Neo has "the something" that is required for a One to be the One. If there is no special "something" for him to have above everyone else, why would she have even bothered saying it?

Surprised wrote:

Am I right in thinking that your theory is that anyone could become the One if they are placed on the same "Path" as Neo from age 25 or 30?

Nope, not right. Neo is a superior computer hacker all on his own. And he also has a supreme confidence in himself and a certain distaste for authority that make him a prime candidate to blossom into a full blown integral anomaly.

My theory is that the One is a path of design implemented to harness the anomaly. An anomaly by definition is a- "Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule." In other words, something not designed

So it is not the anomaly that is designed. The anomaly must be sussed out (hence the agent programs pointlessly chasing after codes to Zion and Morpheus' being fed this line about his destinity to find the One, yadda yadda). The prophecy is a system of control designed to locate the next most likely anomaly.

The Path of the One is then the process of design. It is "the measure of control" applied to the next most likely integral anomaly to keep him in check.

I'm not deviating from a literal translation of the Architect's speach at all, in fact, I'd say I'm taking it more literally than you are. Remember, the Architect is a software programmer, we are never told that he is also a hardware builder.

Hi CaptPostMod,

There are 5 points I'm interested in how you would address:

1) Neo isn't just a superior hacker. "His neural-kinetics are way off the charts." He can perceive time like a machine, and this was discovered before Neo believe he was the One. No other human could move like an Agent. This perception of small time intervals is what I believe enables him to eventually communicate with the Source. Are you arguing that you or anyone else would be able to send modem-like binary signals wirelessly just because you're a hacker and you happen to hate authority?

2) "You've got the gift..." [Oracle in M1]: The "gift" Neo has involves a lot more than personality and job interview skills... it is a true "gift" from the Architect. This also works symbolically in a beautiful way, by the way - when people talk about "gifts" in real life, they are implying "from God". Who is God in the movies? No doubt about it - the Architect is even wearing white clothes. Again, if we are to take the Oracle literally, then the word "gift" actually means "gift". Is your interpretation of the Oracle's word "gift" more literal than mine? She could have easily said, "ability", but apparently she felt the need to call his abilities more than that.

3) Under your theory, why was the Architect watching Neo in M1 while he was being interrogated by the machines? You said they had no idea who Neo was until he exited the system, and yet apparently the Architect did. Why would the Wachowskis put such a clue in the movie if all it means is that the Architect is channel surfing in the Matrix, or perhaps just watching the Agents? We don't need to know that the Architect was watching the Agents - it doesn't change or compliment any understanding of the movie. Clearly this clue is supposed to tell the audience something important - not something trivial.

4) How do you propose the "summation" of the anomaly occurs, if not deliberately by the Architect? Is there an anomaly summation phantom running around in the Matrix? Is there some computer science theory that I'm not aware of that states all errors in a computer system will eventually all gather in one small memory segment of the computer's RAM?

5) The Architect wouldn't have to modify Neo's hardware - mere programming of his brain would be all that's required as an infant or as Neo grows up. And programming people plugged into the Matrix is not only possible for the Architect... it's what he does by the very design of his job as the Architect. He modifies the brains of everyone inside the Matrix every time a new version of the Matrix is started. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned hardware implants because personally I believe it's just software programming (Neo's "code" that the Architect refers to). My only point by bringing hardware into the conversation was that if the Architect is responsible for the anomaly summation, we don't really know exactly how he modifies Neo. But I strongly speculate it would have been software based on who the Architect is.

Here's the problem I have with the idea that Neo being part of the 1% was actually something that was planned. If you can MAKE somebody reject the Matrix, then logic would dictate that you have access to the part of the mind that would enable you to make them ACCEPT the Matrix as well. And if the Architect had that ability, we wouldn't even be seeing the anomaly, because his problem would have been solved since he would be making everyone accept the Matrix with no deviations. Granted, this is an assumption, but I believe it's a sound one. Anyway, I believe that's the consequence of believing that Neo's rejection of the Matrix was planned.

But there is a problem with that viewpoint. In order to progress on the Path of the One and have a consciousness-expanding experience, you would need to become a redpill. It's pretty much an inevitable part of being the One. So if the One is always a redpill, but he's not engineered to be a redpill, then it's either a coincidence (highly unlikely), or he's hand-picked from among those who reject the Matrix.

So let's say that the One is always hand-picked from among those who have already rejected the Matrix--the scenario that makes the most sense to me. That would mean that he wouldn't be engineered from birth, because the Machines never know who's going to reject the Matrix until they actually do it. If they knew at the time of birth who was going to reject the Matrix, they could kill them before ever plugging them into the Matrix, thus nipping that in the bud before it ever became a problem.

The rejection of the Matrix happens after each human is at least several years old. Presumably, the Architect has a way of tracking those who reject the Matrix, even though the agents do not (that's another thread by the way, so for now just bear with me). When the time is ripe for the One to appear, the best candidate is chosen and modified (or "engineered" as the Architect states). This is why Neo appears to have higher-than-normal readings before he even believes he is the One, which is pointed out by his technical superiority even though he doesn't even have enough belief to jump from one skyscraper to another. But whether this engineering process happens at some point during the first movie is debatable. I know some people believe it was when the Oracle gave Neo a cookie, which fits in nicely with the Alice in Wonderland theme. Regardless, it makes most sense to me that the One is chosen from the 1% and modified, not that he coincidentally happens to be one of the 1% or is somehow engineered to become one of the 1%.

The One is the eventuality of the anomaly and is also the integral anomaly. That means two things: he is the predictable result of the anomaly and he is also the sum or the totality of the anomaly--which I believe refers to the fact that he carries the code made up of the sum of the remainder of the unbalanced equation. But the One himself is expected, planned and engineered. He's an eventuality because he is engineered on purpose and he is integral because the sum of the unbalanced portion of the equation is attached to him. It is not the One that the Architect is trying to get rid of, it is the rejection by 1% of the population he's trying to get rid of. The One exists to solve the problem--he is not himself the problem. The One is a control measure, as understood by Neo after his meeting with the Architect.

Feral, I like the way you think. Keep in touch. Having said that, I'm going to disagree with a couple of things, but you may actually like the disagreements...

Quote:

If you can MAKE somebody reject the Matrix, then logic would dictate that you have access to the part of the mind that would enable you to make them ACCEPT the Matrix as well.

It's good that you recognized this is an assumption, but it may not be as sound as you said it is, because there are probably an infinite number of ways in which one single rule can be broken. A person could realize a spoon doesn't exist because they are able to perceive glimpses of computer code once in a while (seeing "behind" the smoke and mirrors). They could realize a spoon does not exist because they are somehow able to move it through their body the same way Neo moves his hand through Trinity's. Or maybe they join a religion that teaches them nothing exists except themselves, and they are one of the few who choose to fully believe and live it. These are all different kinds of rejection even though many of them result in the same set of finite rules being broken.

It has always been my speculation that every time the One returns to the Source by choosing his own deletion, not only is the One canceling out all choices to deny any part of the reality of the Matrix (because of the One's being a summation of all denials), more importantly, I believe the machines are able to learn more about that rejection and counter it in future versions.

The point of this argument is that you're still left with an infinite number of ways to reject the reality of the Matrix even if you eliminate a few of them with each iteration. So, the logic that the Architect's ability to plan rejection must imply an ability to prevent it isn't necessarily sound.

My second basis for disagreeing with the soundness of this assumption is perhaps an even stronger argument: the One is not "forced" to reject the Matrix. He is still choosing to - all the Architect is doing with the One is giving him every ability that has led to rejection up to that point in that current version of the Matrix. Giving Neo all of those specific traits does not guarantee rejection (although the likelihood of the choice that results virtually guarantees it), but more importantly, removing all of those specific traits does not guarantee acceptance (as I argued in my first point).

Quote:

...the Architect has a way of tracking those who reject the Matrix, even though the agents do not (that's another thread by the way, so for now just bear with me).

That I can definitely do. I don't believe "rejection summation" is a process that can happen by accident. Glitches in a computer system caused by human error don't neatly line up in an orderly fashion on their own to be inserted into one entity. The closest analogy I can think of to today's PCs would be a virus scanner. Without a virus scanner, viruses would never gather themselves neatly in one place in the RAM, hard drive, processor, or any other part of the system.

Quote:

I know some people believe it was when the Oracle gave Neo a cookie, which fits in nicely with the Alice in Wonderland theme.

I think the Oracle definitely put some kind of code in the cookies she baked in both M1 and M3, but Neo already had "neural-kinetics" way off the charts, he already took in information that Tank loaded into him "like a machine", etc. so I don't believe Neo's being the One was solely because of the Oracle's cookie.

5 points one at a time:

1) "No other human could move like an Agent." And yet Morpheus does it in Reloaded. Do you think their speed has anything to do with their muscles in that world? It's all about freeing your mind. "This perception of small time intervals is what I believe enables him to eventually communicate with the Source." But Trinity does bullet time with-in the first few minutes of the first film. And Ghost and Niobe both show the ability to do bullet time in E.T.M. Also, what about storming club hell? Both Morpheus and Trin move faster than the programs set to guard there.

"Are you arguing that you or anyone else would be able to send modem-like binary signals wirelessly just because you're a hacker and you happen to hate authority?" Modem-like binary signals? What's that about? The Matrix isn't even written in binary. And no one uses the term "wireless" in the movies. Neo can do what he does because his power reaches all the way back to the Source, not because he had a wi-fi connection secretly hidden in him before he even became the One. I believe the movies become most clear when all quotes of machines are taken absolutely literally.

2) "You've got the gift..." [Oracle in M1]" You're right, she could have called it an ability, and then I would have been more likely to buy that it comes from the Architect. But the Architect is not God (applying symbolism are we?). The Architect is the demiurge. I'm sure the Oracle would respond to someone calling the Architect God the same way he responds to Neo calling her the Oracle- "Please." "Is your interpretation of the Oracle's word "gift" more literal than mine?" Yep

3) "Under your theory, why was the Architect watching Neo in M1 while he was being interrogated by the machines?" At the point he is being interogated, I'm sure the Architect is beginning to suspect. And to turn this argument on its head, why would the Architect be watching Neo in the interrogation room if he had already modified him and built him to be the One? He would already know everything happening. Doesn't his monitoring suggest a certain curiosity?

4) "How do you propose the "summation" of the anomaly occurs, if not deliberately by the Architect?" Am I talking to myself out here? The summation is a result of the Path of the One. It is a way of transfering an uncontrolled anomaly into a controlled, anticipated, and finally calculated event.

5) "The Architect wouldn't have to modify Neo's hardware - mere programming of his brain would be all that's required as an infant or as Neo grows up." Or after he had already become the anomaly. It is not the Architect who "programs" the One, either, it is the Oracle that found a solution to the problem of the anomaly and the crashes that result. She developed the Path of the One and the prophecy. The programming that occurs to Neo is much like the programming that occurs to the machine in matriculated, but in reverse. Neo is put through a messianic "process" which then "designs" his personality to feel a responsibility for the life of every human connected to the Matrix. In this way it is possible to harness the anomaly and control it.

Surprised, I liked what you had to say about multiple ways of causing people to reject the Matrix. And this can be verified by one of the events from the Matrix Online game. Early on in the game when Morpheus was still alive, he was setting off code bombs throughout the city. When these code bombs would explode, they wouldn't destroy anything, but they would expose the underlying code of everything in the immediate vicinity so that everyone could see it.

The idea was to hopefully force bluepills to reject the Matrix once they saw that it was just a computer program. While this doesn't 100% prove what you're saying (Morpheus may have been wrong in his assumption that it would cause anyone to reject the Matrix), I believe it lines up with what you're saying.

The choice to accept the Matrix can be done on an unconscious level, which is what always made me assume that the choice to reject was also subconscious--and was ONLY subconscious. But now that I think about it, ANYONE can reject the Matrix, and at ANY TIME. It's just that 1% do it unconsciously. Excellent point.

Cap, your posting kind of confused me. At times you seemed to be disagreeing with what Surprised and I are saying, and at other times you seem to be agreeing. Could you sum it up a bit?