»Tsukasa's Theory«

Here's My Ideals
Take It Or Leave It

Ok. The Whole "Choice Is An Illusion" Refers To The Matrix Within A Matrix Theory. I Mean If There Is A Matrix Within A Matrix, Then The Illusion Is That The People Think They're Jacked Out When They Aren't. This Way Less People, If Not All, Accept The Second Matrix

Theres More To Come On This Thread, But This Is all I Have Time For Right Now.

It has nothing to do with a matrix within another matrix. The Architect makes that clear, stating that it was through granting choice to humans that kept them under control in the first place. Ergo, even if there were another matrix to be stuck it, it would deprive no one of choice in the way that the Architect means, otherwise people wouldn't accept the programming. Anyone still trying to justify MwM is stuck in the mud, hasn't been reading the threads posted here concerning it.

The problem with choice is goes much deeper than being stuck inside of the matrix. Merv and the Oracle both break the concept of choice down to its rudiments, uncovering much of its origins. And anyone who thinks they make choices based on what they decide upon the very moment of choosing hasn't quite grasped the point made by these two old matrix sages.

Try a new tact, Tsuk -- but do take no offense by my bluntness -- I mean none.

I Don't Take Offense At All. But What I'm Saying Is That The 2nd Matrix Would Control Anyone Who Rejects The 1st One, Just Covering Their Tracks.


...Sry, But This Smiley Rocks.

In that I concede we are in agreement

ok, heres my next one
I want people to take an "right until proven wrong" look at it.

Ok, I Think neo's special abilities in the matrix have nothing to do with being the one. I've said this on some other thread too, but i want people to elborate. I think that if you can focus on breaking the rules enough, that you could fly, or go intangible. I think the only thing that makes him the one is the coding he carries, or "the remainder to the equation."

Your Thoughts?

You're putting effort to see deeper in the rabbit hole, Tsak, and I personally give you points for that. Unfortunately your theory, while a good idea, is definitely not a valid thought and I'll tell you why. I usually play Devil's Advocate at these types of things anyway.

The anomaly is marked unique in numerous ways. Smith is the most prominent of these. No humans in the power plant have an opposite counterpart to them living in the matrix, balancing their representative integer of the Architect's equation. The Architect indicates that the matrix is a perfectly-harmonized system, excepting the anomaly. Without a virus such as Smith, there could be no anomaly such as Neo. I'm cutting details since it's late, but basically they both share partial roles in reinserting the prime program.

Morpheus debriefs Neo on his role as the One -- after freezing the red dress simulation.

Morpheus : I won't lie to you, Neo. Every single man or woman who has stood their ground, everyone who has fought an agent has died. But where they have failed, you will suceed.

Neo : Why?

Morpheus : I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them, and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed, are still based on a world built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong, or as fast, as you can be.

Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?

Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

Morpheus was right, and Neo does end up discovering new powers within himself. He has the ability to manipulate the matrix in the same way that he is able in the real world to destroy machines only by "touching" them (as the Oracle puts it) -- interestingly, these are all powers that Morpheus and others would have discovered long before Neo if they could have, since their minds were freed younger and they had much more experience in the matrix than Neo. Neo's unique advantage/disadvantage is that the power of the One extends through the matrix and through the real world, back to its origin: the Source (DEM). Only Neo and Smith are connected with the Source. Only they as internal entities of the matrix can manipulate it. Only they can survive death, excepting through deleting one another, thus rebalancing the equation. Only they can fly... damn luckies.

Tsukasa wrote:

I think that if you can focus on breaking the rules enough, that you could fly, or go intangible. I think the only thing that makes him the one is the coding he carries, or "the remainder to the equation." Your Thoughts?

I totally agree Tsukasa

Being the One is like being in love. No man can tell you you're not in love with a girl just because she loves him more. Being the One means that Neo is the accepted manifestation of the integral anomaly. But, as we see through the trilogy, the more the characters develop the more powerful they become. True Morpheus says-

Morpheus : I won't lie to you, Neo. Every single man or woman who has stood their ground, everyone who has fought an agent has died. But where they have failed, you will suceed.

But then who defeats an agent in M2? Morph of course ('cause he's the biggest bad ass in the trilogy). Morpheus is not the One, but he certainly could learn to do everything Neo does if he just let it all go. Let go of the prophecy that is crippling him. The prophecy that told him he is not the One, but the One who would find the One. A prophecy fed to him by a member of the system of control (the Oracle).

The One is a routine of the Matrix designed to turn the strongest integral anomaly into something controlled and non-anomalous. But if the anomaly were to go unchecked and not focussed into the One, then I think there would be a lot more people flying around and changing the place at will. What would that do to the matrix? Crash it of course. Which is the crash that the Architect is talking about. Imagine if Morph had kept going. He's a few steps behind Neo, but do you really think he wouldn't have learned to fly eventually?

You think Capt that Morpheus and anyone else for that matter could stop sentinels by touching them? Good ol Morph, bless his heart, hardly defeats an agent -- all he did was knock him off a truck -- a little much credit, don't you think? And you think the crash has to do with people discovering they can fly? Aight, but nah, no no, ç'est pas comme ça, mon ami.

"The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from... the Source."

That power is hardly a free-for-all.

Marsoullis wrote:

"The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from... the Source." That power is hardly a free-for-all.

That's not very in keeping with the Wachowski's world view. The Wachowski's seem to stick to mystic cosmologies. Mysticism is a belief in an ultimate reality/state of consciousness that is present in everyone. All we have to do is free our minds.

The Source, as it is typically viewed, is connected to every machine and person wired into the machine mainframe. Anyone can tap it, it is your atman.

And Morpheus goes from saying that everyone who stands their ground and doesn't run is killed. But then he goes up against an upgraded agent. The everyone he was talking about went up against agents less powerful than the one he faces. But he defeats Johnson. Maybe not resoundingly, but he does it.

The power is in freeing your mind, not winning the cosmic lottery.

Good points made. I don't see the one as being random as a lottery, myself, which is why I separate him, his abilities, his curses, and all else, from all others. This is one I'll probably just let simmer for a while since I could see logic going in either direction.

It's this simple: Neo's cool enough that he gets to fly and everyone else doesn't

Perhaps there's a middle ground, where everyone has the potential to tap into the Source, but they need the help of a unique and more powerful individual to teach them how to do it. I believe that the first One really did free himself as Morpheus described in M1. While the story Morpheus was told was not the full truth, I don't believe it was a lie. The Kid also freed himself, because Neo helped him. The Kid did it himself, but was encouraged by Neo. So perhaps you're both right.

...bastard Killed This Topic, So Now I Have To Think of a new one...

No I'm jk, If Anything I'm Happy, He's Made It Clear. Kid Did Free Himself. But I Think It Can Hold Others Back vis a vis Morpheus. He So Convinced That Neo Is The One And He Isn't That I'm Sure He's Never Even Tried To Fly Or Stop Bullets. If He Tried, and truely believe i'm sure it was possible

That was the original idea for M2: Reloaded -- the idea of others in the matrix having control over it, and where their devotions lay. It's fun, though not so innovative as the movies made. I stick with the idea that, while some may have some small abilities to manipulate the matrix, the One has abilities entirely exclusive. Everyone oughta read this, the Wachowskis original script for Reloaded:

I'm Not Done Yet, but i did come accross this part:

"We don’t know exactly what he’s capable of. He may be just tapping
his potential, or he may have already reached it. We are to learn from
him, as he does from us."
~morpheus

Anywho, while i read this, If There Is No M-w-M, the How Come The Oracle Can Predict things like trin's love life?


...these looked funny together:

lol having fun with those emoticons, eh ...

Sorry, that was my bad. That script wasn't written by the Wachowskis. I thought it was, it says it was, but it wasn't. In "Matrix Revisited" they mention how they wrote the whole trilogy and sold it to WB before they even did "Bound", which long precedes the date of this script. You're right of course -- the whole idea of it is others being able to control the matrix like Neo can, but it was someone else's idea.

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Anywho, while i read this, If There Is No M-w-M, the How Come The Oracle Can Predict things like trin's love life?

Everyone, including the Architect, overrates the foresight of the Oracle, and underestimates her wisdom. Meanwhile, she doesn't predict -- she manipulates. I don't know if you've ever had someone tell you something, something they looked so sure about that you started to believe them. That's her speciality, and mind you, where love goes, influence can be one mega-effective method of activation.

The Oracle knows a lot. She knows every thought and every action of every human and every program trapped in the matrix. She is connected to all of them, as is indicated many times in the series. One thing she doesn't know however is the future. She doesn't know if Trinity will fall in love the way she (the Oracle) prophecies she will. Nor does she know if Niobe will follow her counsel and give Neo her ship. She knew Morpheus would find the One, as another example, but only because the machines handed the One right to him, through her, for their own purposes, as had been done five times before. But the other elements, the ones unplanned by the machines, them she manipulates, through influence and intelligence, to fit her own agenda: peace, the end of the war.

She's pieced her plan together just so, and she's betting on a very small propability all the pieces will fall into place just as she's set it up. She didn't know. She didn't predict. She gambled. On a LOT. This whole facet of the matrix is entitled The Oracle's Gamble.

Seraph: Did you always know?
Oracle: Oh no, no, I didn't. But I believed. I believed.

You'll never find an explanation for MwM that doesn't make plain and straightforward sense in the real world.

btw, nice anywho lol. I like that

I Know Alot About Phycology(except how to spell the word ). So I Know What The Oracle Was Doing, But How Can She Manipulate The Red Pills?

When I say manipulate, I'm talking emotional and perspectual manipulation i.e. powers of persuasion. That's how she works her plan -- she directs her pieces. I mean, she's the Oracle, and everyone knows it, in fact, according to Rama Kandra, everyone knows her. That's power, man, respect is the greatest form of power. Because she has that, most people will listen to her and do just what she says.

Marsoullis wrote:

When I say manipulate, I'm talking emotional and perspectual manipulation i.e. powers of persuasion. That's how she works her plan -- she directs her pieces. I mean, she's the Oracle, and everyone knows it, in fact, according to Rama Kandra, everyone knows her. That's power, man, respect is the greatest form of power. Because she has that, most people will listen to her and do just what she says.

Very True, But How Would She Know Niobes True Feeling Between Locke And Morpheus

Tsukasa wrote:

Very True, But How Would She Know Niobes True Feeling Between Locke And Morpheus

Easy. I said it before. She's connected to everything that exists in the matrix 3.0-3.6. She can manipulate easily because she can see just what people are thinking and feeling -- that's the power that comes with the role she was given by the Architect.

Archie: I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo: The Oracle.

Archie: Please . . .


And now I pose a question to you, my friend. Based on what I've told you... are there any other reasons you can think of that would even remotely imply the "real world" being another computer-generated dream world?

The machine city is full of orange code and so is the Source. [I have not seen Revolutions in a while so excuse me]

So um...the people that glow orange....are they gifted with 'special' abilities or something? Some programs and humans do glow orange and some do not.

AgentDragon wrote:

The machine city is full of orange code and so is the Source. [I have not seen Revolutions in a while so excuse me]

You're confusing reality with perspective here. I don't know what you mean by "full of orange code" but nothing actually glows in gold code. That is how they are seen by the One, after his natural eyes are burnt out.

"But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him."

This is a verse from what most would consider an apocryphal account of Moses beholding the Lord. Siddhartha's enlightenment would be another example of spiritual eyes being fully opened. There are things we can see only through the eyes of our spirit. On a physical level, Neo was connected with the machines and the matrix in a way that no other human was. Essentially, his machine eyes were opened once his human ones were burnt out. On a metaphysical level, gold code represents spirit, and Neo's eyes are eventually opened spiritually. It's a message to all of us, something to strive for.

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So um...the people that glow orange....are they gifted with 'special' abilities or something? Some programs and humans do glow orange and some do not.

There are no humans who are made up of gold code. The closest thing to it is Bane/Smith. Notice though how he looks in gold code (if you don't remember, DEFINITELY see M3 again -- what a fantastic movie). There is one program inside the matrix to our evident knowledge who is made up of gold code. That is Seraph -- a very interesting character. I won't say all I know of him right now, but know this: Seraph is a Hebrew word of the OT, used by Isaiah to refer to an angelic servant of the Lord.

The word Seraph literally translates to "fiery one."

There are lots of major hints at the start of M3, alluding to his original loyalties, his roots, and who he in this series has become. I expect there are other such hints in ETM.

:::siiiiigh....::: Sadly we Mac users are prohibited from that game at the present.


Not to be a stickler or anything, but weren't your questions kinda off-topic? You should post a new thread and ask them -- you'll get lots of good answers from lots of others there too. But hey, not complaining, myself -- they were good.

Marsoullis wrote:

Tsukasa wrote: Very True, But How Would She Know Niobes True Feeling Between Locke And Morpheus And now I pose a question to you, my friend. Based on what I've told you... are there any other reasons you can think of that would even remotely imply the "real world" being another computer-generated dream world?

Sure Here's 2:
Gold Code - It's Code
The Squidies - Being Able To Feel Them

Quote:

:::siiiiigh....::: Sadly we Mac users are prohibited from that game at the present.

Niobe's Feeling About Locke And Morpheus Are Showed More In-Depth In ETM, ...loved that game..., But Both Persphone And The Oracle Go Over It With Her

Quote:

Sure Here's 2: Gold Code - It's Code The Squidies - Being Able To Feel Them

C'mon now, you're brighter than this. The answers to these events all blatantly point not to but away from MwM, and are all written in obvious places in the series.

Anyhow I'm not here to convince you or anyone else against your ways -- but I use logic over excuse. There is about ten times the logic to refute the idea of the real world being inside another matrix than there is supporting it.

In the end, 98% of all people believe what they want to believe

Marsoullis wrote:

Quote: Sure Here's 2: Gold Code - It's Code The Squidies - Being Able To Feel Them C'mon now, you're brighter than this. The answers to these events all blatantly point not to but away from MwM, and are all written in obvious places in the series. Anyhow I'm not here to convince you or anyone else against your ways -- but I use logic over excuse. There is about ten times the logic to refute the idea of the real world being inside another matrix than there is supporting it. In the end, 98% of all people believe what they want to believe

Explain These To Me, And Maybe I'll Convert...

For Those Who Are Wait For The Next Question...Here It Is:

Is The Reason Why Smith Lost Because He Couldn't See Beyond The Choice Of Believing The Oracle?

[quote="Tsukasa"][quote="Marsoullis"]

Quote:

Sure Here's 2: Gold Code - It's Code The Squidies - Being Able To Feel Them Explain These To Me, And Maybe I'll Convert... For Those Who Are Wait For The Next Question...Here It Is: Is The Reason Why Smith Lost Because He Couldn't See Beyond The Choice Of Believing The Oracle?

I explained the gold code in this very thread. You can interpret the code however you like, but there's no precedence for the way you're currently understanding it.

And much less precendence for Neo's touching the squiddies. That one is so blatently obvious from what the Oracle says in M3... c'mon. Don't ask others to prove things to you that you won't believe. Figure it out for yourself. You've been shown the door.

Your next question's a good one. First of all, you know why Smith was destroyed upon destroying Neo, right?