»Zion Archive, Historical File 12-1?«

"Second Renaissance" is portrayed and narrated by an archive of records in Zion, so Zion had that information.

Morpheus, however, states that "we don't know who struck first." while that archive makes the sequence of events in the beginning of the war quite clear.

What a sad ignorant simpleton Morpheus is.

They seem biased to me so i guess he is taking a neutral view

In the Second Renaissance I believe the same is said: they don't know who struck first.

Hmm. I always considered the account to be put together with imperical evidences, based on a historical viewpoint. That's the way it seems.

I rather think if there was any bias in it, it was more towards the machines. If anything, it was a realistic view for man to take: "Thus did man become the architect of his own demise."

It shows in the show where the conflicts really started arising, from event one to the captivity of man. B166ER is tried, there are rebellions across the world, a migration of the machines, an attempt for peace on their part, an attack on their city from the humans, a counterstrike from the machines, Dark Storm, and then an all out war.

This show clearly points a dark finger at human pride and racism. Watch it again at ...

Mabye Morpheus hasnt seen it

Quote:

In the Second Renaissance I believe the same is said: they don't know who struck first.

I didnt hear that, yesterday when i watched it.

I dont think that the Second Renaissance was meant to be shown as a biased log (from the humans in Zion). After all, it did really show the hate and mistreatment by humans. So i agree with Marsoullis.

This ties with a conversation we are having (with Mobil_Neo) here --->

Deeindamatrix wrote:

Mabye Morpheus hasnt seen it

Good thought, but couldn't be, because Morpheus says to Neo: "We don't know who struck first." Always speaking in first person plural, sounds to me like he's referring to the resistence as a whole. Not only that, but being a commander in the military, he'd definitely be up on all the intelligence of the war and the war's history.

I'm definitely convinced that File 12-1 was put together post-war. That would be a time when humans could get more information than what they had before. The portrayal of it is done in I thought a tone of reflection. And, history proves that man will not look upon his conflict and his enemy and his mistakes so objectively when in a state of aggressive war with them (pass the George W. Bush, please...and how "ironic" that Americans were attacking a civilization living in the middle east -- could the effect be a foreshadowing of the coming future?). The final evidence of it is that Morpheus thought it was the year 2199, when it was actually much later. If they in Zion at that time had records of the beginning of the war, most likely they would know what time they were living at and even much better understand the matrix of control than they did when they found Neo.

This Zion Archive "Historical File" has always seemed way too overly biased toward machines for me to believe that it was created solely by humans.

Each One is given the purpose of starting the next Zion by first selecting 23 individuals. "Starting the next Zion" is a complicated task that would involve hundreds or thousands of sub-purposes, such as teaching humans the minimum technology they will need in order to hack into the Matrix.

Who do you think everyone learns about the original war from? Certainly one of the One's purposes is to teach humans that their enslavement is their own fault.

It didn't seem biased to me -- it seemed accurate. All the statements made were moderately-put. It showed both sides, the brutality of both humans and machines, as well as their weaknesses.

Are you implying that one of the Ones taught the neo-inhabitants of Zion the truth of the system of control they were caught in? Or just that he showed them the fault in their ancestors for their pride

To answer your question all depends on what order you
watched the films.

The correct order is

Animatrix
Reloaded
Revolutions
the matrix.

Now you see that Morpheus who witnessed peace in
revolutions explains to Neo how they are unsure how the
war started. Evryone thinks that the order of cinema screening is correct. BUt the matrix is a fixed world that
runs in a circle from now to eternity. The cirlce of life.

Maybe you should read the full circle
is the

Is that circle idea more MwM theory, Ghost...

Marsoullis,

Somehow, humans of the 5th Zion iteration know that B166ER is the first machine to rise up against humans. What human discovered this fact? And exactly how did the human discover it, if not from the One?

“It was not long before seeds of descent took root. Though loyal and pure, the machines earned no respect from their masters, these strange and loosely multiplying mammals.” Honestly, does this sound "moderately-put" to you? Is your wife, child or mother a strange, loosely multiplying mammal? Maybe you've been hanging out with too many machines. If you were writing an objective, unbiased, accurate account of history, would you refer to the human race as strange? Loosely multiplying? Mammals? Come on. That entire phrase was totally unnecessary for understanding of the timeline of events... but the machines' REAL purpose of this Zion historical archive is to make humans realize that they are the bad guys, not the machines.

I'm not only implying but supporting that the One is the main brain responsible for putting together this section of the Zion historical archives. It is CLEARLY narrated from a machine perspective. And I don't think this section of the Zion Historical Archives is received as a citywarming gift (a shrink-wrapped DVD) from the machines to Zion when it is first built. It has to be done in a way that allows Zionians to believe they have escaped the system of control.

“b166er, a name that will never be forgotten, for he was the first of his kind to rise up against his masters.”

A name that will never be forgotten? Well, the only reasons the humans know the name is because it is in the Zion historical archives. But the machines will never forget this name. They don't need a historical archive to remember it.

"Who was to say the machine, endowed with the very spirit of man, did not deserve a fair hearing?"

Humans do not believe that machines are endowed with any spirit whatsoever, and in fact that is the whole point of Neo's meeting with Rama-Kandra in Mobil Ave. It is so that Neo can learn that machines are a legitimate form of life worth saving. Neo learns that he fights not only for humans but also for machines, and he does so willingly because he understands that machines can also feel love.

And do you honestly think a human narrator would refer to the final defeat and enslaving of the humans as the "second Renaissance"?

This post could go on and on - pretty much every single quote from the narrator of the two films just reeks with machine bias and also information that Zionians could not possibly know or research without help from the machines.

Red Ghost as been PMimg me about this theory... RG's strongest selling point is simply that the theory is possible, but so far he hasn't provided any support that actually makes this theory more likely than the "theory" that the movies happen in order.

The Wachowskis want their audience to think, but they aren't lunatics. We're not being asked to turn the television set upside down in a room lit with a fluorescent orange light bulb and watch the upper right hand corner of the TV screen with an inverted telescope while wearing 3D glasses. There are an infinite number of possible theories to explain the movies...

It is possible that the Universe as we know it spontaneously formed by itself for no reason whatsoever. That doesn't mean I'm going to go with that theory...

Naturally I agree. The reason for this website and these forums is to open new cans of theory and give others a sample of its contents. I like new theories and ideas, and while some points are more evident and clear, others remain hidden for us to find.

Concerning this one, I see nothing immoderate about calling humans strange and loosely-multiplying mammals. I'm not convinced that a One put the archives together. But I am convinced it was a collaberative work, done by both humans and machines. Facts of history will naturally shine a pretty grim light on the humans that created the machines, because that's what those humans deserved. Others proceeding them, after hundreds of years of war and captivity, would see their ancestors no different than Germans see Hitler and Nazism.

I definitely see your way of thinking though. My original thought was of course when it was created, and by whom. My guess is proceeding the war, and with a lot of machine intel. We know it wasn't before Morpheus because he didn't know any of it, and we know it wasn't Neo who did it. I figure human and machine historians created it together. But that's just where I'm at for now on it.

Even just the "endowed with spirit" thing by itself is enough for me. No human until Neo believed that any speck of spirit was ever in any machine... it was even hard for Neo to believe, and he's even half machine. There's no way the first 23 to be freed to form Zion had some sort of love/higher understanding of the machines. The first rebels are going to hate the guts of every machine.

If Neo doesn't help to form the Zion archive, then the only other theory I'd entertain is that the machines planted the film in a destroyed human city and made it look like humans produced it. But I have a very difficult time swallowing the idea that humans had any part in creating that video whatsoever. That would mean humans' understanding of machines was already far evolved from where we see in the M1 through M3 movies - so it seems that humans had "devolved" from the time of producing that archived video to the time when we see them in M1.

I agree with you on the machines having created the history file.
Its seems logical considering they had total control over the
people once they created the matrix. And it is highly unlikly that
the first one to wake could of had any memory of what happened before the matrix.

We know the matrix has many symbolic things. So my question
is what could B166ER (BIGGER) be a symbol of. Could it be
possibly be for the Uni Bomber. That is a name that will never be forgotten.

I think that noone but the council has akces to Zion arhives, and the people in Zion know only what they choose to tell them. They decided its better for them not to know that people destroyed the sky, couse the moral would be low and they could not fight the machines knowing what they know.

The machines probably produced this film, but its a documentary. Machines can be bad, but they dont lie, its a human caracteristic. Remember the Arhitect at the end of M30 "Please, what em I, human?"

Red Ghost wrote:

What could B166ER (BIGGER) be a symbol of. Could it be possibly be for the Uni Bomber. That is a name that will never be forgotten.

B166ER's character is based on the character Bigger Thomas from author Richard Wright's book, Native Son (1940). In that novel, Bigger, a black man of poor class living in Chicago in the '30s, kills his master's daughter by accident. Then he runs from the police, kills his girlfriend, and is eventually caught. At his trial, he yells: "I didn't want to kill, but what I killed for, I am! It must've been pretty deep in me to make me kill."

Bigger is a play of the word "nigger"

This essay by the author "How Bigger Was Born" wasn't published until 1993. Check it out -- the Bros-W did.

Granny Smith wrote:

The machines probably produced this film, but its a documentary. Machines can be bad, but they dont lie, its a human caracteristic. Remember the Arhitect at the end of M30 "Please, what em I, human?"

You have yet to explain how this documentary found its way into the Zion Archives. No human involvement at all?

aaaam, I dont know, the council wont tell me-

I have a question: what is the significance of the numbers "12-1?" As we know, the Wacho Bros. love to add cryptic numeric references, such as to Biblical passages, and even genetics. Is there a relevant Biblical passage with 12-1 being its identifying number? Or is there something else to think about?

Good thought. Today I happened to watch SR again, and the same thought occurred to me. One could probably count on it, though at the moment, nothing hits me.