»The Architect and the Deus Ex Machina are one in the same«

This was posted elsewhere, in a two year old thread, but I wanted to get some feedback from you guys where there'd be a little more traffic:

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There is no evidence, from what I've seen and heard, to believe that the Deus Ex Machina is NOT the voice of the Architect program.

In fact, from the evidence we do have, it not only COULD make logical sense that they are the same, but it is LIKELY that they in fact are the same.

1) Architect's cryptic words when Neo left his chamber:

Neo: If I were you, I'd hope we don't meet again.

Architect: We won't.

Meaning: "We", in this form, in the Matrix, won't meet again. But we will meet again, in the Real world, because when you leave here, your path of choice will inevitably lead you to ZeroOne, the Machine capital city, where I will resurface and deal with you again, when your choices takes you there.

2) Neo's confidence changed the Architect

Much in the same way that Niobe explained to Locke that Neo was "needed" because he believed that the humans would win the war, and he made other people believe. Much in the same way that Neo made Smith a "free man". The part of the conversation that revolved around "hope" and the "problem of choice" affected the Architect so that when the offer of defeating Smith FOR the machines AND for man arose, the Architect, in his infinite mathematical wisdom, was forced to MAKE A CHOICE. And he did, he allowed Neo to fight, and ultimately surrender, to Smith, resolving the problem.

The conversation in Architect's chamber was SET UP for this later interaction between Neo and the Deus Ex Machina, the Architect's real world avatar.

Agree? Disagree? Please reply here.

Right now, i cannot think of something that disagrees with this post

This is the silliest thing I've read here in awhile (with the exclusion of that viome/alyce/red ghost/merger101 schtuff). The poster disproves their own theory-

Reloaded wrote:

Neo: If I were you, I'd hope we don't meet again. Architect: We won't.

There is no reason to believe that the Architect meant "in this form" or whatever. Additionally, the Architect is a fairly emotionless and calculating being. A far cry from the DEM's emotional outbursts- "We need nothing!"

My own theories on the DEM may be way off, but I think that the Architect telling Neo they will not meet again is enough proof that whatever DEM is, it is not the Architect himself.

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There is no reason to believe that the Architect meant "in this form" or whatever.

Agreed. But the word "we" could be reffering to what Neo was at the time, (before choosing the door and understanding his choice etc). Wouldnt you agree that by the time Neo got to DeusEx, he was quite different ?

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Additionally, the Architect is a fairly emotionless and calculating being.A far cry from the DEM's emotional outbursts- "We need nothing!"

I see your point. But could this "emotional response" be symbolic?

Also, why would DEM allow another AI (the architect), which would be less advanced than it, to build the most important thing (the matrix) ?

The Therion wrote:

Quote: There is no reason to believe that the Architect meant "in this form" or whatever. Agreed. But the word "we" could be reffering to what Neo was at the time, (before choosing the door and understanding his choice etc). Wouldnt you agree that by the time Neo got to DeusEx, he was quite different?

I would not, no. Neo is more developed in his skills, but he has not yet blossomed from messiah to God. It takes reuniting with Smith for him to do that.

The Therion wrote:

CaptPostMod wrote: Additionally, the Architect is a fairly emotionless and calculating being.A far cry from the DEM's emotional outbursts- "We need nothing!" I see your point. But could this "emotional response" be symbolic?

Symbolic of what?

The Therion wrote:

Also, why would DEM allow another AI (the architect), which would be less advanced than it, to build the most important thing (the matrix)?

Well, I think more and less advanced here are relative for starters. DEM is more... de-limited than Arch, but not necessarily more advanced (in fact, he seems more primitive). Additionally, the Architect allows the Oracle to "fix" the Matrix. The machines are willing to farm out tasks to programs better suited to complete them.

For a real world example- Do you think Bill Gate's designs the new versions of Windows anymore? Of course not. He farms the work out to lesser (though probably better) programmers so he can chill in his multi-million dollar mansion and worry about running his massive empire, not writing and debugging code.

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I would not, no. Neo is more developed in his skills, but he has not yet blossomed from messiah to God. It takes reuniting with Smith for him to do that.

It would take the actual act of reuniting, or the satori moment that he HAS to do it ? I thought it was the second.

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Symbolic of what?

Dont know, the question just popped in my head, had to get out , lol.

What do you mean by "de-limited" ?

well if the DEM is not of the Architect....then what is he, the leader of the machine city....and if so what is his matrix form(program essence)...i think they r one DEM and ARC.

{Morpheus} wrote:

well if the DEM is not of the Architect....then what is he, the leader of the machine city....and if so what is his matrix form(program essence)...i think they r one DEM and ARC.

You see DEM's Matrix form at the very end of Revolutions when the streets are remade around Sati and the black cat. That is DEM's Matrix form (immaterial as it is in the real world, remember, he has no real world form either, just a bunch of machines representing him to Neo).

As for what he is, he is a manifestation of the machine Atman, their collected being. That is why he is a collection of readily available machines!

is there anywhere i can go to learn the nature of the DEM i would like to give input to the subject at hand.

{Morpheus} wrote:

is there anywhere i can go to learn the nature of the DEM i would like to give input to the subject at hand.

I'd just recommend doing a forum search and reading what other posters have said over the years. And certainly don't take my word on any of this as gospel, I'm pretty much in the dark on everything too. I just have a few fun ideas that I'm pretty good at backing. But as anyone will tell you, I've been wrong before (more than once!)

CaptPostMod wrote:

the Architect is a fairly emotionless and calculating being. A far cry from the DEM's emotional outbursts- "We need nothing!"

Let me preface this by saying that I've read several of your posts Capt., and really enjoy your thought process and articulation of thought.

That said, I am trying to establish a reason other than opinion as to why the Architect and DEM should not be considered one and the same. The Architect did not COMPLETELY remain emotionless during the chamber scene...when he spoke of the annihliation of the "entire human race", he noticibly trembled. He scoffed when he spoke of Neo choosing the "wrong" door, and he grew increasingly displeased as the conversation went on.

I don't think that this was an accident in regards to acting direction by the W bros. Good storytelling is all about set up and payoff, and it makes sense that this was a set up to their later meeting. Big characters RARELY have only one scene, especially in a trilogy.

I see their two meetings now as a play on meeting the Wizard from Wizard of Oz. Except it was the opposite - Neo sees the "man" form first, then encounters the "god" form later.

Cap : i'd like a comment for what i said about Neo and satori in my previous post, if you have, thanks.

ghost22 : i also noticed that the Architect wasnt emotionaly neutral in several moments. I dont know if this is an indication that he is DEM though.

Something else i noticed is that, the Architect is presented as an individual, while the DEM, as many little....thingies, forming a kind of ....baby face.

I wonder if that was intentional, if it symbolizes something (since the machines symbolize the spirit and all).

The Therion wrote:

Something else i noticed is that, the Architect is presented as an individual, while the DEM, as many little....thingies, forming a kind of ....baby face. I wonder if that was intentional, if it symbolizes something (since the machines symbolize the spirit and all).

Exactly Therion. The DEM is clearly a conglomerate consciousness. Why do we assume that the Architect is even half as powerful as DEM? If the Architect is the father of the Matrix, then the Oracle is its mother. If we assume that DEM is also one of the lesser deities inside the Matrix, then why would it not be the Oracle? The Architect is the Architect, DEM is DEM.

As for proof, like I said, I found that post silly because the poster themselves points out that the Architect says that he and Neo won't meet again. Why have the Architect say this if they then are going to meet in the third film? There's no reason for it (symbolic or otherwise). And yes, the Architect displays some emotion, but he's like a vulcan, there's emotion there but he holds it in check. DEM is like a baby, wild and unpredictable from the looks of it. DEM is a conglomeration of machines. The Architect is simply one program out of many. A very special one, but not necessarily the supreme one.

edit:Therion, I didn't understand your satori question? Can you rephrase it?

well i'll look into this DEM thing, it could just be the final answer.

[quote="CaptPostMod"]

The Therion wrote:

Something else i noticed is that, the Architect is presented as an individual, while the DEM, as many little....thingies, forming a kind of ....baby face. I wonder if that was intentional, if it symbolizes something (since the machines symbolize the spirit and all).

It is symbolic of the death and rebirth of the Matrix drawing near. At New Year's eve, what are the two most common icons? Father Time (here, represented by The Architect) and Baby New Year (represented by the face of the DEM).

CaptPostMod wrote:

The DEM is clearly a conglomerate consciousness. Why do we assume that the Architect is even half as powerful as DEM? If the Architect is the father of the Matrix, then the Oracle is its mother. If we assume that DEM is also one of the lesser deities inside the Matrix, then why would it not be the Oracle? The Architect is the Architect, DEM is DEM.

Clearly? Hm...I'm not entirely convinced of this. Simply because many sentinels form the physical "face" of the DEM does not neccessarily mean that the DEM is a collective consciousness. Because he says "WE don't need you"? If I recall, the Architect said something much to this same effect in regards to destroying Zion: "We have become increasingly proficient at it." Is it then right to believe that the Architect is a collective conciousness as well? I would say no.

CaptPostMod wrote:

Why have the Architect say this if they then are going to meet in the third film? There's no reason for it (symbolic or otherwise). And yes, the Architect displays some emotion, but he's like a vulcan, there's emotion there but he holds it in check. DEM is like a baby, wild and unpredictable from the looks of it. DEM is a conglomeration of machines. The Architect is simply one program out of many. A very special one, but not necessarily the supreme one.

But there is reason for it. The Architect knows that whichever door Neo chooses, it will not result in Neo seeing him again in that form, as the Architect, as a "white bearded old man". But, just as the Arch can manipulate the Matrix to his whim, he does the same as DEM in the "Real" world (using the machines to form his "baby face"). The Architect is the supreme program of the Machine world, by design. The IDEA to have the Matrix exist is a Machine AI decision. It is the Architect program that CREATED the Matrix, it is the Oracle program that is going against this purpose of this directive.

i agree.

ghost22 wrote:

At New Year's eve, what are the two most common icons? Father Time (here, represented by The Architect) and Baby New Year (represented by the face of the DEM).

The key word above being two.

ghost22 wrote:

But there is reason for it. The Architect knows that whichever door Neo chooses, it will not result in Neo seeing him again in that form, as the Architect, as a "white bearded old man".

How is that a reason? That is only an explination, not a why.

ghost22 wrote:

But, just as the Arch can manipulate the Matrix to his whim...

He can?

ghost22 wrote:

The Architect is the supreme program of the Machine world, by design.

The Matrix and the machine world are identitical?

can Arc really manipulate the matrix on command?

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edit:Therion, I didn't understand your satori question? Can you rephrase it?

I was saying that the satori was not the merging with smith, but the realization that he had to. The moment that he understood the why.

But then i remembered that first he meets DEM, then merges with Smith....right? LOL ....i've only seen Revolutions once ! ( i dont believe it myself, but its true lol...well that will be taken care of soon ), so i forget some scene sequence sometimes.

But now i have another question. If he met DEM before battling Smith...then how was he so certain that he could beat him, since he then didnt yet realize the why (and so the how) ?

About DEM-Architect : Well could we say that DEM is the collective consciousness of all the machines....and the Architect and the Oracle (combined) are their representatives ?

i think that Arc is what ever the hell he wants to be. lol, it is just a little frustrating trying to figure him out.

The Therion wrote:

But now i have another question. If he met DEM before battling Smith...then how was he so certain that he could beat him, since he then didnt yet realize the why (and so the how) ?

Neo is the One!

The Therion wrote:

About DEM-Architect : Well could we say that DEM is the collective consciousness of all the machines....and the Architect and the Oracle (combined) are their representatives ?

Yes, that I would agree we could say!

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Neo is the One!

He is, but he also is full of doubt as to what he has to do , or how it can be achieved. And nevertheless , when he had to make the big decision with DEM, he was quite sure of himself. Perhaps he was subconsciously sure he could do it ? Of just believed he would find out ? (or both).

i think that there should be a second Neo, an actual Neo just darker than that of the real neo and there should also be a second matrix which the dar Neo ruel over, a matrix of dark and and one of light, that would be cool.