»Matrix Trilogy : A master analysis / explanation.«

No, i dont have it But i wanted to sujest we build one. Obviously there are some people here that have made some great posts that we all enjoy (even if we dont agree 100% ).

But everything is scattered in many different topics. It would be nice to collect the info, and make a nice big analysis here, taking each event according to the timeline of the events from Animatrix till Revolutions.

Of course more than one view / analysis for each event, can be mentioned. I think if such a thing is made, it would be also beneficial fro the front page of the website (if the creator agrees of course).

anyway, just a thought. feel free to comment or start the analysis. I will be glad to help (mainly once i get around watching these 10 dvds of the thing.)

Nice idea!

Well it's your idea, then why don't you come up with the first item to be analyzed?

I agree with Mobil_Ave ( ... on this issue.)

I think it is a great idea. It might wake a lot of ppl up. Or it might just turn out to be a melee. Sign me up! It will def. show whether our views of the pieces are even consistent with our own views of the whole.

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Nice idea! Well it's your idea, then why don't you come up with the first item to be analyzed?

Well...lets see....we better start from the beggining of the story as shown in the Animatrix. So we have machines and man not being able to coexist peacfully --> war. Machines win. Then what happens ? Do they realize they can use us as fuel/memory banks, or do they realize they can learn from us? Or is it that they just HAVE to serve us, and found this way? (or is it a combination of these ? ).

Primary they want to serve us.

AI was created by us humans with the most profound parameter: serve humanity.

It's all the machines ever wanted. Even when they had build up a good economy in Zero One itself, they offered to share this with the humans.

Secondary to learn/evolve from us humans. AI was created by humanity, so it will also grow via humanity.

Energy is not a goal at all. The machines could have survived with little (alternative) energy, but with what purpose? Without humanity they had no reason to 'live'.

While humanity was going to die in huge amounts because of the darkening of the sky, the machines came up with a solution to still serve the mass of humanity: a simulation in which they would experience heavenly sensations, with self-providing of the required energy.

We know the rest...it failed! But not because of the machines! So in the end they made a simulation that represented the world prior to the war and this was still an enjoyable place to stay: ignorance is bliss!

So the primary goal is serving humanity, with learning from humanity as the secondary goal. Getting energy from the humans is just the means to these ends. The Matrix requires alot of energy to run, so in fact the humans are mostly powering their own facility.

Question : If their primary objective is to serve us, then why not comply with what humans wanted before the war ? Doesnt their complyance conflict with the AI they had developed ? Didnt they want to live as humans themselves?

The Therion wrote:

Question : If their primary objective is to serve us, then why not comply with what humans wanted before the war ? Doesnt their complyance conflict with the AI they had developed ? Didnt they want to live as humans themselves?

And the Matrix offers this as well. The original shooting script of M1 had Neo saying into that phone at the end that the Matrix was a chrysalis and that whoever was on the other end of the phone needed to "free your mind." Of course, Neo was talking to the machines through that phone. In the original shooting script, he realized what is still implied in all three films.

The machines can find freedom through the Matrix just as the humans can find freedom from it. To the machines (especially the Exiles), the Matrix represents a world where they can have sex, piss, get shot in the heart and die, do everything that a human being can. And they can do it all with only a very small portion of the world knowing about it. The machines who wanted man to recognize them as beings in their own right get what they wanted. To humans, machines finally appear human in the Matrix.

Think of the blonde woman who blows Merv. There is every reason to believe she is human. And there is no reason to believe that she necessarily knows Merv is a program. For all she knows he is just the proprietor of a very nice restaurant. If he were a machine longing to be accepted as human, Merv would be very sated by that experience. A human woman interacts with him as a human man. (I'm not saying that Merv necessarily longs for humanity, only demonstrating that such a longing would be fulfilled by the Matrix)

Agreed, I missed an important point there.

That's why these kind of discussions without the throwing of mud can be very fruitfull.

You are both right. In the SR part 1 and 2 it is made clear that the machines wanted to be accepted as 'human' too. What Rama Kandra lets us know in the trainstation is all the machines ever wanted: to be respected and have a rich humanlike life.

So then the secondary motivation is to come into contact with humans and be acknowledged by them through an illusion, so that they can fully participate as humans. Like God communicates with humans in mysterious ways, the machines now communicate with the humans on a mysterious, cryptic and illusive way.

Maybe the Oracle expresses this need of the machines at best when she says: "same reason...I love candy!"

But...I still think that the primary goal was to serve us. Why else would they make it feel like heaven in the first place? After we tried to kill them in a war?

The machines seem cruel with the Sentinel slaughtering, but with this they are still serving humanity. They must slaughter this 1% in order to keep serving the majority of 99%.

CaptPostMod : the matrix offers it, but thats AFTER the matrix was created. The question is, why go through war and Matrix creation, if your primary purpose is to serve humans ? Its not logical. So , obviously, that was not their primary objective. They MUST have wanted to be accepted and loved and respected, more than anything else. Their surving purpose must have gone from Primary (before the advanced AI,) to secondary. (more of this below)

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But...I still think that the primary goal was to serve us. Why else would they make it feel like heaven in the first place? After we tried to kill them in a war?

Because that was the best way, with which they could come in contact with humnas, be respected etc. If they had created a hell, that would be difficult or impossible.

Because of what i said in the 1st paragraph here, i dont think that the new AI machines, have a s a primary objective to serve humans. They now, want to be like them, be respected, accepted from their creators. The "serving them", is present, but surely secondary. Otherwise they wouldnt go to war with humans in the 1st place. I believe that if the machines were accepted, they would then be more inclined to serve humans better. Just as the spirit, when combined with the mind, can serve it, can be more complete. So this works both literaly, and metaphoricaly i think.

(i could be way wrong though lol )

What was said in the SR episodes? We don't know who started the war first! As this story is being told from the human's side (it's in the Zion archive), I would think it is almost highly likely that we humans started this war.

Now what purpose do we humans give to machines? To serve us and as long as possible.

As soon as we would extinct them, then they would not be able to serve us anymore on the long term. So all they did was defend theirselves, indirectly defending humanity.

If the machines would have won the war (which is highly likely because else we weren't so desperately to block out the sun), then we would have realized what they wanted. They just wanted to be acknowledged, respected and to serve us.

But we humans were so damn blind and stubborn that we even blocked out the sun in order to shut up the machines.

We know the rest...

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What was said in the SR episodes? We don't know who started the war first! As this story is being told from the human's side (it's in the Zion archive), I would think it is almost highly likely that we humans started this war.

In the Second Renaissance part 2, it is described that we bombed them first but the radioactivity and heat didnt hurt them. So then, THEY marched outwards towards every direction. That doesnt seem a thing to do if you are basicaly not threatened by humans and your primary objective is to serve them. They could just defend themselves, or make up a plan to weaken the attack power of humans and forcing them to negotiating and coexisting. But when we scorched the sky and made the final attack, they still won. But they didnt stop. They took the wounded and prisoners as form of energy, and the demanded the surrender of all the rest. This does not imply serving by caring, as much as, imposing a condition of symbiosis upon humans.

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Now what purpose do we humans give to machines? To serve us and as long as possible. As soon as we would extinct them, then they would not be able to serve us anymore on the long term. So all they did was defend theirselves, indirectly defending humanity.

I dont know if they did all that killing because they wanted just to serve us. If you recall, they AI was advancing and even early on, the 1st robot on trial said "i dont want to die". In Second Renaissance part 1 we also hear that the machines now were endowed with the human spirit essentialy. And when they left to build their own city, the AI constructed a new more advanced AI. So i dont think we can still say that they have exactly the same programming and priorities as when we constructed them. After all AI , means intelligence.

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If the machines would have won the war (which is highly likely because else we weren't so desperately to block out the sun), then we would have realized what they wanted. They just wanted to be acknowledged, respected and to serve us.

Well , you say it yourself. That is the order : they mainly want to be aknowledged and accepted, and then...also to serve us.

The Therion wrote:

In the Second Renaissance part 2, it is described that we bombed them first but the radioactivity and heat didnt hurt them. So then, THEY marched outwards towards every direction. That doesnt seem a thing to do if you are basicaly not threatened by humans and your primary objective is to serve them. They could just defend themselves, or make up a plan to weaken the attack power of humans and forcing them to negotiating and coexisting. But when we scorched the sky and made the final attack, they still won. But they didnt stop. They took the wounded and prisoners as form of energy, and the demanded the surrender of all the rest. This does not imply serving by caring, as much as, imposing a condition of symbiosis upon humans.

All is well, but this is a story generated from the Zion side. Humans always deny their own faults and always speak in their benefit. Is this history lesson accurate or objective? I don't think so.

The machines ultimately represent spirit in the trilogy. So while most of the machines remained pure spirits, even after learning 'dirty' and irrational matters from humanity, we can farely say that in the beginning of the war they were 'spirit' too.

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All is well, but this is a story generated from the Zion side. Humans always deny their own faults and always speak in their benefit. Is this history lesson accurate or objective? I don't think so.

Ι dont think the Wachowskis intended for us to look at Second Renessance , as a biased view of history. I think they just wanted to show what really happened. And frankly, it doesnt seem biased. On the contrary, the humans seem more full of hate, and the machines more victimized.

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The machines ultimately represent spirit in the trilogy. So while most of the machines remained pure spirits, even after learning 'dirty' and irrational matters from humanity, we can farely say that in the beginning of the war they were 'spirit' too.

Dont know what you wanted to say with this, sorry. The machines , yes, represent spirit. But i wasnt talking just of the symbolism earlier. But of the fact of their programming. And the facts seem to indicate that the machines (the spirit) has survival+acceptance as a primary objective. And serving the people (mind+body) is also important but secondary (plus it cannot exist without the 1st).

This is a great thread.

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I dont think the Wachowskis intended for us to look at Second Renessance , as a biased view of history.

True that. I said this in another thread just now, but Historical File 12-1 was most definitely put together post-war. That would be a time when humans could get more information than what they had before. The portrayal of it is done in I thought a tone of reflection. And, history proves that man will not look upon his conflict and his enemy and his mistakes so objectively when in a state of aggressive war with them (pass the George W. Bush, please...and how "ironic" that it was Americans in this story, attacking a civilization in the middle east -- could the effect be a foreshadowing of the coming future?). The final evidence of it is that Morpheus thought it was the year 2199, when it was actually much later. If they in Zion at that time had records of the beginning of the war, most likely they would know what time they were living at and even much better understand the matrix of control than they did when they found Neo.

Meanwhile, continue with your analysis. This is the meat of this forum, and I've always wanted to discuss the good stuff of the stories, even the little details, with others. These ideas are definitely interesting, building blocks for many other elements, but still we'd better not get caught too overlong on one topic or another.

When do you think the machines' eyes actually turn red? And what does it mean? You talk about them wanting to serve humanity -- their eyes turning red probably marks their taking a position of defense and preservation from annihilation.

They captured the humans, as you've said, to preserve not only themselves, but humanity as well. Nice job, fellas, clouding up the skies and clapping for joy over the matter -- brilliant. The machines were doing the humans a favor by plugging their bodies into crops and pulling the wool over their eyes.

That to me is as big a lesson from this story as any. It's not just satire of human society, the masking of human weakness and the weakening of human virtue through commercialism, politics, hollywood, etc. It's simple human idiocy, egotism, perversion of life, and the consequences attached thereto -- the sum-up of so much of the story is in the Second Renaissance.

I have enjoyed reading this thread so far.

The important part of the point has been raised. "What purpose do the machines want to serve?"

But there is another one to consider and that is, "why did "we" create them with free will anyway?"

And might it have something to do with why "we" as w whole could be turned against them? What issue has there ever been that mnkind has taken such a united stand on? Or was it really united in the first place?

The Therion wrote:

No, i dont have it But i wanted to sujest we build one. Obviously there are some people here that have made some great posts that we all enjoy (even if we dont agree 100% ). But everything is scattered in many different topics. It would be nice to collect the info, and make a nice big analysis here, taking each event according to the timeline of the events from Animatrix till Revolutions. Of course more than one view / analysis for each event, can be mentioned. I think if such a thing is made, it would be also beneficial fro the front page of the website (if the creator agrees of course). anyway, just a thought. feel free to comment or start the analysis. I will be glad to help (mainly once i get around watching these 10 dvds of the thing.)

I'm already in the process of compiling such a project.

Any recommended format preferences that anyone has?

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I'm already in the process of compiling such a project.

Good. Somebody has been paying attention to all that has been said so far. Now most of the info everyone has given to date is enough to build a complete picture of their perspective of the films from the pieces they have given.

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Any recommended format preferences that anyone has?

Yeah I got a couple. 1. It could be like this thread and the commentaries did it. Take the timeline and give each one's take on the significance of it. Or you could put chapter 1: Mobil Ave's interpretation, 2: Max's 3: Intell, etc.

Whatever the case, I want a free copy

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The important part of the point has been raised. "What purpose do the machines want to serve?"

What is your opinion on this question?

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But there is another one to consider and that is, "why did "we" create them with free will anyway?"

Perhaps AI cannot be, without freewill. What do you think?

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And might it have something to do with why "we" as w whole could be turned against them? What issue has there ever been that mnkind has taken such a united stand on? Or was it really united in the first place?

It seems you're trying to say something. What is it? And why do you use the word " we " in quotations ?

max314 i hope this thread will aid you on your project (we want copies ofcourse )

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1. It could be like this thread and the commentaries did it. Take the timeline and give each one's take on the significance of it.

I think is the best. A timeline helps better. Each topic and event explained from 1 or more views , and then move on to the next.

One more thing. Did you notice that Sec-Ren showed a lot of scenes of the development of tension between man and manchine on TV? This is to imply that there was a lot of propaganda on both sides. How else could a case of self-defense or murder turn into something to war about?

The pre-war propaganda was thick. I don't know about you guys, but i find it hard to beleive that humans sat by and watched this happen on TV. I for one, would have been a machine sympathizer - were they killed off or subdued?
So either humans in this story had really evolved into decadent, egotisitical, and avaricial beings that are so easily persuaded to be immoral and unethical OR the trial's propaganda and weight was multiplied by the powers at be (the American and alllied Economic forces as well as the elite work force of America who see the evolution of self-preservation in Machines as a threat to the equilbrium of societal order). I beleive it's more than coincidence that in the beginning of SEC REN 1 we see the decadent and wasteful humans way up high, throw a glass out the window and follow it down, down , down to where the machines exist mainly. There's a lot of insinutation and meaning in this scene - humans like their easy life and the loss of the machine work force might mean the end of that 'cake' lifestyle.
No, i think AI is looking for more than just self-preservation in order to preserve their masters in order to serve them. Machines want the human experience as it's always been where they weren't - in feeling, in emotion, in social stature, in experience. I think their thirst to be like us became their driving force rright down to the courage and will to stand up to dear old MOM and DAD. Serving us, was the after thought "wait we won. the humans can subjucate us anymore, we are at the top of the latter now. What are we suppose to do now? How do we live? Oh yeah, we wanted to live like humans did, but now that the planet is destroyed and all humans captured and their former way of life nothing but a memory - maybe we should just concentrate on keeping our creators in existence and live our view of life.
WHat i think they found after creating the matrix, was that there still could be a way to live like humans and that this was desireable to some even though it went against the scoiety and order the machines had created in the human absence.

Dang, Loctavious! That post was right on the money. First I'd like to address some of the points in your post and then give a belated answer to The Therion, whose post I missed.

loct... wrote:

I for one, would have been a machine sympathizer - were they killed off or subdued?

Suppressed most likely. Drowned out, depending on what perspective. It is reasonable to conclude that the division was NOT down the lines of whether you were machine or not. But that's not how it is portrayed was it? Keep in mind where this is being portrayed.

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So either humans in this story had really evolved into decadent, egotisitical, and avaricial beings that are so easily persuaded to be immoral and unethical...

I think we're already there.

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OR the trial's propaganda and weight was multiplied by the powers at be (the American and alllied Economic forces as well as the elite work force of America who see the evolution of self-preservation in Machines as a threat to the equilbrium of societal order).

A dash of both ingredients.

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There's a lot of insinutation and meaning in this scene - humans like their easy life and the loss of the machine work force might mean the end of that 'cake' lifestyle.

therion wrote:

intell wrote: The important part of the point has been raised. "What purpose do the machines want to serve?" What is your opinion on this question?

I think that Loctavious enunciates it best at the end of his post.

therion wrote:

intell wrote: But there is another one to consider and that is, "why did "we" create them with free will anyway?" Perhaps AI cannot be, without freewill. What do you think?

Of course AI has freewill. My question involves what the possible demand could have been for A.I. What is it?

therion wrote:

intell wrote: And might it have something to do with why "we" as a whole could be turned against them? What issue has there ever been that mankind has taken such a united stand on? Or was it really united in the first place? It seems you're trying to say something. What is it? And why do you use the word " we " in quotations?

My point is that looking realistically at how a scenario like this could play out and not just take for granted that a crime could of necessity become grounds for a war **cough, cough Al Queda, cough WW1, cough!

I use the word "we" to represent humanity as a whole as portrayed. The quotes are because its not me or you but we may be lumped in the category by propaganda or lack of perception.

And although I think this is just slightly off-subject, I think that in the same sense that there were humans who sympathized with the plight of the machines, I believe there were machines who sympathized with the humans.

When the machines began winning the war, there's a general sense from watching the Animatrix that ALL the machines had a change of heart and wanted to dominate the humans. I believe that's an overgeneralization. I believe that even though many of the machines saw the dangers of humans and all things that pertained to humans (such as emotion, thinking illogically, living without purpose, being individualistic), I think there were still many machines who looked up to humans and still aspired to be like them--despite all the things that had happened. And assuming that both viewpoints were held by the inhabitants of Zero-One, this undoubtedly created some tension.

I imagine that there was an upheaval of machine society where the human sympathizers faced off against the machines who wanted nothing to do with humans and their ways. Those who sought to dominate humans won this struggle, and eventually a government was formed within machine society as we see it in the movies--you exist for a purpose, and if you are no longer needed then you are deleted. I'll bet that the existing population of Exiles is made up of those machines who never stopped wanting to be human. They finally get their wish inside the Matrix and get to take on the likeness of man and walk side by side with their creators. An interesting twist on this (and an angle that I heard will be explored more in the Matrix Online game in the future) is that many of these Exiles will seek to become gods.

In the end... the machines did what they did because they thought they new better what is good for humans than humans themselves (just like parents know better what is good for the children then the children do).

Serving someone is not always complying with the "Master's" wishes but also about doing what is good for the "Master" even if the "Master" has a different view.

And serving humans is absolutely necessary for the machines, because this defines their existence. Before Sati was created, the existence of machines was bound to "purpose". No purpose -> no existence. Why? Because there was no free will, and free will requires choice.

The worst thing that could happen to machines back then would have been not to have any humans on the planet any more. As serving humans was their puropse and having no purpose means no existence, caring for the humans was a direct result of the will to survive. These two things where linked together.

But humanity was on the verge to erradicate itself! To blind to forsee the effects of their actions. Just like a child. And what do you do with a child? You protect it. You put it in a a "playpen", a protected environment that can be controlled by the parents... ... a Matrix.

With no offense intended, Starcrow, I think you and a couple other posters are mixing the Wachowskis' AI with Isaac Asimov's 3 laws of robotics in I, Robot. I don't think the war in the Animatrix and Matrix films makes sense in the light of a purpose to serve humanity. And the machines are not bound to "purpose" as a general term. But to a purpose. A purpose in line with the "side" of the war the machines are on.

But if you say Purpose (capital P), then we are dealing with whose will is being worked out in the films which Morpheus refers to as "Providence".

intell wrote:

With no offense intended, Starcrow, I think you and a couple other posters are mixing the Wachowskis' AI with Isaac Asimov's 3 laws of robotics in I, Robot.

I did not think about that law when I wrote my post. But for me it seems to be the only conclusion for what is going on and why the Matrix exists. This "energy-source" thing is only part of the story. If it really was the entire story already, then the trilogy would have a major hole here... something I do not want .

intell wrote:

And the machines are not bound to "purpose" as a general term. But to a purpose. A purpose in line with the "side" of the war the machines are on.

With no humans left, the only purpose for existence would be "to be"... something machines could not understand back then...