»25000 sentinels...«

tozy wrote:

Vanexel, I've reread this thread (once again,... brilliant job) and I'd like to discuss a few thoughts with you:

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I've been in the process of moving. Now, with that aside, lets get back to the discussion!

Vanexel711 wrote:

That's why, I believe, he and Trinity have to go above the machines and into the clouds.

tozy wrote:

What, do you believe, does he experience there (or what does this experience symbolize)? And how is it connected with...

Vanexel711 wrote:

The machines, who are Spirit, are not complete unto themselves (although the majority of machines think they are, the same way some humans in Zion, such as Locke, simply want the machines destroyed). Neo brings what the machines lack to the machine world....escape from dogmatic purpose.

Good question Tozy. If we break down the scene to its most simplistic aspects, Trinity experiences the sun. And what is the sun to our world? It penetrates every fiber of our existance. It shines indescriminately on all things. Without it, we would cease to exist. The sun is the Source! In many ways, it is a great example of Choiceless Awareness. The Sun just IS...and it has always been around during the best and worst times of humanity.

This is what Trinity sees and experiences. Neo, throughout Revolutions, sees and feels the Source which created him. And that Source, as Wilber stated in the Revolutions commentary, is the dogmatic Source. It is the Source pre-Neo. What Trinity sees is the Source without limits (post-Neo). The last scene (*the formlessness of light which is Neo*), is a symbol of Neo having experienced what Trinity experienced: Unconditional, indiscriminatory beauty.

Vanexel711 wrote:

Enlightenment and growth cannot be attained rationally.

tozy wrote:

I believe this is the answer to your...

Vanexel711 wrote:

That death/resurrection scene is still an enigma to me in terms of the technical methods used to kill/awaken Neo and destroy Smith. What I did come to realize, albeit recently, was that the whole scene itself is given to us from different perspectives, and different events take place in the differing worlds simulatneously. We get the Real World perspective, where Neo is being electrocuted with energy and seemingly destroyed physically, and then we see another reality in Neovision, where Neo is reuniting and evolving into something beyond man and machine.

tozy wrote:

Enlightenment is not rational understanding, but an experience; it involves the human entity as a whole -> body (real world perspective), mind (Matrix) and soul (Neovision)... matrix-explained.com... And when the experience "spirit reality" has "flown" through every aspect of the human entity, the "borders" of the entity dissolve and true Oneness is achieved -> Neo as formless light (-> Brahman -> remember,... that was your finding )

I guess what I'm really searching for is the Wachowski's inspiration for the way the scene was depicted.

Thanks to your reply, I started reading the Upanishads again, and began seeing some similarities I had not noticed before...

The Supreme Teaching: Death

"And as when a king is going to depart, the nobles and officers, the charioteers and the heads of the village assemble around him, even so all the powers of life gather about the soul when a man is giving up the breath of life.
When the human soul falls into weakness and into seeming unconsciousness all the powers of life assemble around. The soul gathers these elements of life-fire and enters into the heart."

This parallels to when the machines are sending energy bursts into Neo. The energy (the light-fire) is gathered by Neo and enters into the heart. This could explain the struggling we see.

Mundaka Upanishad, Mascaro Translation, Part 2:

"Radiant in his light, yet invisible in the secret place of the heart, the Spirit is the supreme abode wherein dwells all that moves and breaths and sees..."

"In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality."

<this next part follows directly after in the translation>

"Where all the subtle channels of the body meet, like spokes in the centre of a wheel, there he moves in the heart and transforms his one form unto many."

"Like spokes in the entre of a wheel"..."where all the subtle channels of the body meet". We are never told why the machines chose those specific areas of the body to harness energy. If they are in fact subtle channel spots, then the machines sending energy back simultaneously into those channels would activate Neo's CONSCIOUSNESS (which has descended into the heart.)

Vanexel711 wrote:

In the end, not only does Neo Temet Nosce (KNOW THYSELF), but he gifts to the machines Temet Nosce as well.

tozy wrote:

Hm,... it is my believe that - in Neo - human spirit attains Temet Nosce. But does DEM, does the machine city attain Temet Nosce? I don't think so, but I believe Neo's Temet Nosce does open the path towards temet nosce for man and machine -> spiritual evolution...

Technically, this is what I meant as well. After all, those in Zion don't "know thyself" completely, and the machines should not be given any exceptions as well. But the door has been opened each side. Both are able to attain the gnosis now, if they choose to. And by that I mean they are not limited to rules, structures, boundaries, or forms.

Vanexel711 wrote:

Mr A wrote: But the fact that humanity's spirit got trapped and alienated within the machines (from the Animatrix) points forward to the fact that the machines had to have an equal number of sentinels for human beings. Each sentinel is a soul finding it's corresponding body. Otherwise if the sentinels represent spirit in a broad sense, then why are there specifically 25000 of them? Why is it just the Sentinels that represent a soul searching for a corresponding body? What about the machines in 01? Are they "souless"? I still can't agree with your theory. And if I was, I wouldn't identify the Sentinel as Neo's soul. I'd identify the DEM. It sounds like a big stretch, but consider the facts. 1. Neo is the representative for humanity. The DEM is the representative for the machines. 2. Neo, technically, is a messiah. To equate him to Jesus would make him a God in human form. The DEM is the God machine. 3. The DEM is the machine which "gifts" Neo his resurrection following his sacrifice. It transfigures Neo into Source/Light. 4. Both have the power to destroy the other. Neo says he "won't try and stop" the DEM, which seems to suggest that he could.

tozy wrote:

As you may have guessed, I agree very much with this interpretation. And if you can somewhat agree with the image I have posted above... matrix-explained.com... ... you can see that DEM appears as a sun within the borders of the scorched sky, just as the soul "represents" spirit within the borders of a separate human consciousness.

YES! I completely agree! Excellent picture! The machines not as spirit, but soul! Spirit seperated and limited! Brilliant tozy!

tozy wrote:

I feel a bit nit-picky about Neo, however... It is my understanding that Neo doesn't represent humanity in general, but the striving in man for true Temet Nosce (the anomaly, climaxing in the One), as opposed to the (much more common) striving for false/deluded Temet Nosce in man, which is the striving for self-realization (-> the many), as represented by Smith. And it is this aspect in humanity alone, I believe, the striving for true Temet Nosce, which could make it to the machine city and "face" soul. What do you think? So far for now...

I was talking to a good friend of mine about Neo's creation, and who is responsible for it. It seems to correlate with the point you're making. If the power of the One comes from the Source, and the Source is spirit alienated, then labeling Neo to any sectors...human or machine...would seem inaccurate. I think you said it perfectly when you simply called it "the striving for true Temet Nosce". No labels or sides. Simply the feeling.

Vanexel711 wrote:

Sorry it took me so long to respond....

Well, now its my turn to apologize; a little black creature keeps me quite busy....

Vanexel711 wrote:

The sun is the Source! In many ways, it is a great example of Choiceless Awareness. The Sun just IS...and it has always been around during the best and worst times of humanity. This is what Trinity sees and experiences. Neo, throughout Revolutions, sees and feels the Source which created him. And that Source, as Wilber stated in the Revolutions commentary, is the dogmatic Source. It is the Source pre-Neo. What Trinity sees is the Source without limits (post-Neo). The last scene (*the formlessness of light which is Neo*), is a symbol of Neo having experienced what Trinity experienced: Unconditional, indiscriminatory beauty.

Beautiful!
Of course I agree, which makes this aspect of our discussion quite boring, doesn't it?...

Vanexel711 wrote:

The Supreme Teaching: Death "And as when a king is going to depart, the nobles and officers, the charioteers and the heads of the village assemble around him, even so all the powers of life gather about the soul when a man is giving up the breath of life. When the human soul falls into weakness and into seeming unconsciousness all the powers of life assemble around. The soul gathers these elements of life-fire and enters into the heart."

I think it is quite interesting to read what follows after this quote:
..."The upper end of the heart lights up and by that light the self departs, either through the eye or through the head or through any other part (aperture) of the body"

See also:
swami-krishnananda.org... -> 38