»25000 sentinels...«

In Reloaded, Morpheus makes a comment about how there's a sentinel for every man woman and child in Zion. This alludes to each sentinel being a separate soul entity for every body in Zion, simply alienated. It is once again reinforced in Revolutions where the soul of Neo (the sentinel) enters his body.

Morpheus gives a good explanation about the 250,000 sentinels: "A sentinal for every man, woman, and child in Zion. That sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me."

You raise an interesting hypothesis however. I personally see the machines as running strictly on electricity and mechanics, so I can't imagine them having a soul. Though I'm a theist, the show on spiritual levels makes more sense to me according to evolution rather than creationism.

THE GOLD CODE
I figured this. Neo can see the gold code because of his connection to the source, his holding the power of the One, to which every machine and machine structure is connected, this being in a real world, not another neural simulation, I don't buy into that theory. Meanwhile the sentinel's gold code passing through him I figured was shown as a symbol of his connection to them. Also it was perhaps the sentinel's power source jumping beyond where its shell couldn't reach -- in the same way for example certain substances of faster atomic activity can pass through stratified epidermal walls, where others (specifically solids) are not allowed.

Just a thought. Any others on how that squiddie's gold code shot through Neo?

Mr A wrote:

In Reloaded, Morpheus makes a comment about how there's a sentinel for every man woman and child in Zion. This alludes to each sentinel being a separate soul entity for every body in Zion, simply alienated. It is once again reinforced in Revolutions where the soul of Neo (the sentinel) enters his body.

I think thats a great theory... simply great, I think that would explain the sentinel passing through neo. His spirit returning to him, the final stages for his redemtion!

You guys think that random squiddie, happening to fly there right then, contained Neo's soul?

well Im not the W. bros but I think its a pretty good theory.

maby its not that simple, but maby there could be something to it?

The question of logic I pose is, what is a soul in this case? And how does an artificially-intelligent electric mechanism gain one? And what would that particular soul, once somehow exiting its owner's body, have to do with Neo?

the reason why i think that the sentianl passed through Neo was because he had finally reach nirvana, he was able to tap into is power not only in the matrix but in the real world as well.

I know what nirvana is according to Buddhist belief, but what do you mean by it in this case, in this context? Why first of all would Neo have reached nirvana at this particular moment, and what effect did it have on him that he could see the machine world in gold code? I personally didn't see him as having more enlightment after that moment than before. Just trying to clarify is all -- this is one of those facets that I try to understand, as do we all I guess, but kinda stumps us.

Interesting thread, thought I would chime in.

I don't think the Sentinel passing through Neo is Neo's "soul", specifically. Rather, it is symbolic of the fact that Neo is still not ONE with Spirit. As Ken Wilber put it, they are interpenetrating Neo. However, he does not become ONE with the world of light/soul/spirit until his death (and subsequent resurrection).

Of even further interest, and I feel the real key to this puzzle, is what Neo says after..."I can't beat them." After his encounter with the Sentinel's soul, Neo knows he cannot simply fight them and win. It points forward to the ending of Revolutions. Neo does not simply "become ONE" with the machines or "become like them". He brings something completely different to the machine world when he dies/is resurrected in light/becomes One with Spirit. That's why, I believe, he and Trinity have to go above the machines and into the clouds. The machines, who are Spirit, are not complete unto themselves (although the majority of machines think they are, the same way some humans in Zion, such as Locke, simply want the machines destroyed). Neo brings what the machines lack to the machine world....escape from dogmatic purpose. Enlightenment and growth cannot be attained rationally.

In the end, not only does Neo Temet Nosce (KNOW THYSELF), but he gifts to the machines Temet Nosce as well.

Vanexel711 wrote:

Interesting thread, thought I would chime in. I don't think the Sentinel passing through Neo is Neo's "soul", specifically. Rather, it is symbolic of the fact that Neo is still not ONE with Spirit. As Ken Wilber put it, they are interpenetrating Neo. However, he does not become ONE with the world of light/soul/spirit until his death (and subsequent resurrection). Of even further interest, and I feel the real key to this puzzle, is what Neo says after..."I can't beat them." After his encounter with the Sentinel's soul, Neo knows he cannot simply fight them and win. It points forward to the ending of Revolutions. Neo does not simply "become ONE" with the machines or "become like them". He brings something completely different to the machine world when he dies/is resurrected in light/becomes One with Spirit. That's why, I believe, he and Trinity have to go above the machines and into the clouds. The machines, who are Spirit, are not complete unto themselves (although the majority of machines think they are, the same way some humans in Zion, such as Locke, simply want the machines destroyed). Neo brings what the machines lack to the machine world....escape from dogmatic purpose. Enlightenment and growth cannot be attained rationally. In the end, not only does Neo Temet Nosce (KNOW THYSELF), but he gifts to the machines Temet Nosce as well.

But the fact that humanity's spirit got trapped and alienated within the machines (from the Animatrix) points forward to the fact that the machines had to have an equal number of sentinels for human beings. Each sentinel is a soul finding it's corresponding body. Otherwise if the sentinels represent spirit in a broad sense, then why are there specifically 25000 of them?

The fact is that the specific sentinel is Neo's soul, reuniting with him, which in integral theory is the first step to enlightenment. After recognising your own soul, you must become one with spirit as a whole (which is what happens after Neo allows Smith to possess him).

Neo's specific soul, the sentinel, after entering him, showed him how to defeat the machine defense system (by going to the sky) and told him what to do to land (when Neo gives Trinity the order on how to specifically land). Don't you think Trinity would know more about ships then him? Unless his soul showed him the way.

Does anybody have AIM handles? I would like to have many people from here on my AIM list so I can have conversations and discussions on this topic and others.

Neo1 wrote:

the reason why i think that the sentianl passed through Neo was because he had finally reach nirvana, he was able to tap into is power not only in the matrix but in the real world as well.

No, that was achieved after Smith possessed him.

Marsoullis wrote:

The question of logic I pose is, what is a soul in this case? And how does an artificially-intelligent electric mechanism gain one? And what would that particular soul, once somehow exiting its owner's body, have to do with Neo?

Human beings got alienated into three categories due to their vanity and corruption. These categories were the mind, body and spirit. Human beings are born with souls, which is represented by the sentinels. The machines themselves are the spirit, not soul, but spirit of humanity.

they dont. machines r machine they r incapable of obtaining a soul. and it still bothers me. what did the sentinels supposed soul passing through neo symbolize?

Mr A wrote:

Does anybody have AIM handles? I would like to have many people from here on my AIM list so I can have conversations and discussions on this topic and others.

I'd like to dialogue, A. My handle is Vanexel711. That invitation goes out to anyone.

what is AIM and how do i get one?

It's tha same shit as MSN or Yahoo.

o well i have yahoo, off subject but anybody have counterstrike here?

Mr A wrote:

Vanexel711 wrote: Interesting thread, thought I would chime in. I don't think the Sentinel passing through Neo is Neo's "soul", specifically. Rather, it is symbolic of the fact that Neo is still not ONE with Spirit. As Ken Wilber put it, they are interpenetrating Neo. However, he does not become ONE with the world of light/soul/spirit until his death (and subsequent resurrection). Of even further interest, and I feel the real key to this puzzle, is what Neo says after..."I can't beat them." After his encounter with the Sentinel's soul, Neo knows he cannot simply fight them and win. It points forward to the ending of Revolutions. Neo does not simply "become ONE" with the machines or "become like them". He brings something completely different to the machine world when he dies/is resurrected in light/becomes One with Spirit. That's why, I believe, he and Trinity have to go above the machines and into the clouds. The machines, who are Spirit, are not complete unto themselves (although the majority of machines think they are, the same way some humans in Zion, such as Locke, simply want the machines destroyed). Neo brings what the machines lack to the machine world....escape from dogmatic purpose. Enlightenment and growth cannot be attained rationally. In the end, not only does Neo Temet Nosce (KNOW THYSELF), but he gifts to the machines Temet Nosce as well. But the fact that humanity's spirit got trapped and alienated within the machines (from the Animatrix) points forward to the fact that the machines had to have an equal number of sentinels for human beings. Each sentinel is a soul finding it's corresponding body. Otherwise if the sentinels represent spirit in a broad sense, then why are there specifically 25000 of them?

Why is it just the Sentinels that represent a soul searching for a corresponding body? What about the machines in 01? Are they "souless"?

I still can't agree with your theory. And if I was, I wouldn't identify the Sentinel as Neo's soul. I'd identify the DEM. It sounds like a big stretch, but consider the facts.

1. Neo is the representative for humanity.
The DEM is the representative for the machines.

2. Neo, technically, is a messiah. To equate him to Jesus would make him a God in human form.
The DEM is the God machine.

3. The DEM is the machine which "gifts" Neo his resurrection following his sacrifice. It transfigures Neo into Source/Light.

4. Both have the power to destroy the other. Neo says he "won't try and stop" the DEM, which seems to suggest that he could.

That's all I've thought of so far. I'm kind of sleepy .

Quote:

The fact is that the specific sentinel is Neo's soul, reuniting with him, which in integral theory is the first step to enlightenment. After recognising your own soul, you must become one with spirit as a whole (which is what happens after Neo allows Smith to possess him). Neo's specific soul, the sentinel, after entering him, showed him how to defeat the machine defense system (by going to the sky) and told him what to do to land (when Neo gives Trinity the order on how to specifically land). Don't you think Trinity would know more about ships then him? Unless his soul showed him the way.

I don't know much about Integral Theory, but I'm interested in learning. Tozy is a lot better with the Wilber stuff than I am. I've got to get her in this thread

In the meantime, I'm pulling out the script here....

The dog-fight continues as the Sentinels now reach the Logos, leaping onto its back, sticking their lasers through its hide like toreadors thrusting swords into the back of a charging bull.

734 INT. Logos - Cockpit - Night

Sweat covers Neo's body as he reacts more and more violently.

Neo: There's too many ...

735 EXT. LOGOS - NIGHT

A Sentinel dives like a kamikaze straight at the cockpit as Neo reaches out to stop it --

Wrestling with it. As its eyes begin to blink, it corkscrews wildly out of control, slamming against the heavy plated glass which shatters, cratering under the Machine's bulk as --

We experience what Neo experiences; a meteor of light that blasts through his body --

736 INT. LOGOS - COCKPIT - NIGHT

Wrenching free his grip from Trinity.

His arms flails back as he feels himself disconnect, his mind flung loose until --

She snatches hold of him again,

Trinity: I got you.

His head swims as he drags himself back from the abyss.

Trinity: C'mon Neo! I need help here!

The Bros.' narration of the scene doesn't exactly fit in with the "reuniting soul" theory. It seems more in line with Neo stopping the Sentinels at the end of Reloaded. Unlike that instance in Reloaded, Trinity is there to keep Neo grounded.

Furthermore, and I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in the scene with Morpheus and Trinity visting the Oracle at the beginning of Revolutions, the dialogue is a bit different. The Oracle equates Mobil Ave. to one of the islands where information is trafficed. She explains that Neo "washed up" on the island. The reason I point this out is because every time Neo has direct contact with the Source (stopping the Sentinels, the sentinel interpenetrating him), he cannot handle it and literally disconnects/seperates himself.

And, finally (I just thought of this one), when Neo does stop the Sentinels in Reloaded and makes his way out of Mobil Ave., he can begin to see the power lines leading to 01. How did he know this if his "soul" (which, according to your theory, was the Sentinel) hadn't reconnected with him yet?

u just put a twist of theism on the matrix....ur thought proccess is amazing if u can do that. kudos to u my friend.

Brilliant vanexel, very nice exegesis on the subject. I agree as I stated before that a random sentinel would have no connection with Neo in such a way. I don't see Neo as having some evil machine alter ego in the machine world though, not DEM or anyone -- I see him as being part machine himself, but the counterpart is taken care of in the matrix: Smith. His negotiating with DEM and winning him over is evidence of that, as DEM realizes that Neo is the only one who can delete Smith and balance the equation, bringing homeostasis back to the matrix.

I like your theory too that he was about to be overwhelmed and his mind thrown into Mobil Ave again, as he was destroying the sentinels there. I personally see it as mere logic afterwards for him to direct them to the skies so to destroy the squiddies. There's significance to that tact I believe, and to their seeing the orbs in the sky for once -- though what that is I've not yet come up with anything.

Any thoughts on what relevance their seeing the sun and moon had, aside from the fact that they were "beautiful"?

Mr A. You sound VERY familiar. Same first initial too.

i could not agree more but just to clarify what is DEM? im not sure.

When you see DEM or DeM, it means Deus Ex Machina.