»Smith«

once again the 10 disc box set haunts me, still havent got it

The Therion wrote:

Which i ordered and received yesterday (and now, i have to try and find the time to watch the 40 hours stuff it contains lol )

LOL! I watched everything now, except the commentary tracks with those annoying film critics on it.

The special discs are cool though!

Deeindamatrix wrote:

once again the 10 disc box set haunts me, still havent got it

LOL LOL LOL

well sry for my vaguries at times but im really not much of a typer and really try to get right to the point and finish as quick as possible.

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LOL! I watched everything now, except the commentary tracks with those annoying film critics on it.

Oh i will definately listen to those too. I want to see what they have to say. Sometimes another opinion might give a better perspective, or even strengthen our own. Nice to look to different point of views in any case. Besides, its the 1st time a dvd contains commentary from people who didnt like the films lol.

Yeah I am sure that I will eventually listen to them too.

I have already heard that they have some stupid remarks during M2, they don't understand shit from what the movie is trying to say

stop it, i need that box set!

LOL that's a good one.

It's a shame that I don't have captures, because I have the cool box with the Neo doll in it

...I WANT ONE!

mobil_ave wrote:

intell wrote: Perhaps a more pertinent question is why Smith entered Bane in the first place. And that will help you reason out what happened thence. That was planned by the Oracle, who has her own little tasks within the meisure of control. Just like I think that the Oracle chose the park as the meeting point, so that Neo could meet Smith, I also think she planned for Bane to be taken over. Bane and that other guy were on a mission to get the digital disk with the message from the Oracle on it. As it is the Oracle who had determined where and when they could get the digital disk, she made sure that they would encounter Smith. Smith didn't plan to enter the Real World, but as soon as he hears the telephone ring, he sees an opportunity there. You might ask now, why in the heck would the Oracle for Bane to become corrupt? Simple I think: it's part of the meisure of control. Bane needs to trigger the EMP so that the digging/assault isn't delayed or maybe even cancelled. The Oracle is willing to let such terrible things happen. She could have saved Switch and Apoc in M1, but yet she let it all happen, simply because it needed to happen.

Let me stop you right there. We could certainly speculate to no end about the Oracle’s motives and how she might have acted upon them. But what you have interpreted one way could in fact be interpreted another way in harmony with what I’ve been saying. Like so:

Smith might have been in the park because of the HER, rather than the other way around. The same is true about the disk Bane was to retrieve. Smith knows from past experience that SOMEONE has to contact her so he makes sure he’s not too far away. You could say he sees an opportunity (to enter the real world) and seizes the moment or you could say that he has been taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves.

mobil_ave wrote:

The Oracle is as much involved in the meisure of control as the Architect is, the only difference is that she wants a change while the Architect prefers the loops. The Oracle hopes that Neo will make a change, but the meisure of control remains the same. Only when Neo chose the lefthand door the meisure of control was denied and the machines were out of control.

This is in harmony with what I’ve been saying so you know I’m not going to disagree with this one, don’tcha?

But when I raised the question of why Smith entered Bane, I meant what he sought to accomplish in that…"Let’s see if [Tozy] has any answers.”

mobil_ave wrote:

I also wondered why Smith just didn't focus on the destruction of the Matrix instead of obsessively chasing after Neo. I think the main reason for this is because Smith is a program and he cannot deny the purpose/karma that lies deeply within his parameters as a computer program. Smith's purpose as an agent is to fight anything that is anomalous, werther this involves chasing red pills or deleting exiles. Everything that goes beyond the rules of rationalilty is chased by an agent.

*presses the pause button*
If you say that Smith cannot deny his Purpose/Karma, I think even Tozy will have to disagree because that is exactly what Smith has been doing so far. And if he wants to fight anything that is anomalous, then he might as well start beating the crap out of his nearest clone because he is about as anomalous as they come, aside from Neo.

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Neo is the ultimate sum of human irrationality, a super anomaly in the 'flesh'. I think that is why Neo attracts Smith's fury so much.

Exactly. So is Smith.

mobil_ave wrote:

If you ask me, then the Architect is like Smith. He has a purpose, but within himself he hates humans and he wants to get rid of them.

Then I won’t ask you. There is a big difference between them. The Architect neither likes nor dislikes humans. To him they are what the machines use them for – batteries. His view of humanity is identical and representative of big business’ (and not only them but also those higher up’s) view of you as “the consumer” – a means to keep the system running by providing labor (energy) and income through buying their products (acceptance of the simulation). Smith’s “job” as an agent, though, brings him closer to the problems with the system – rebellion aka the Anomaly! But the rest of what you said is right on.

mobil_ave wrote:

Well, I think his plan was to destroy the Matrix, but then the Oracle gave him the 'vision' that Neo would bother him one more time. So instead of focussing on the Matrix, Smith is going to focus on his last clash with Neo.

Okay. Actually, he seemed to be making progress in both of these endeavors.

intell wrote:

And while at it, we can speak about why Smith started to take the course he took anyway. And tie it into the importance that was placed on Neo and why that was.

Stay tuned to this channel for the answer to this question in the discussion on Tozy's post.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

It's a shame that I don't have captures, because I have the cool box with the Neo doll in it

Thats the one i want

tozy wrote:

In The Matrix, Smith wants to get out of the Matrix because, as you say... I wrote: Smith is tired of the cycle.

That of course depends on what you mean in “to get out of the Matrix” and how it is related to being tired of the cycles. But don’t let me interrupt with that yet. Please, continue.

tozy wrote:

You assume that this doesn't change in Reloaded: intell wrote: tozy wrote: intell, how do you understand "I want exactly what you want. I want everything."? We all know why Neo was in that hallway. We also know that he is not the first "messiah" to show up there. Smith knows about the time limit and how much time Zion has left. (Even if he only knows approximately how much.) If he can keep Neo detained, Zion falls and "there's no need for me to be here."

Nope it doesn’t change.

tozy wrote:

This is the first time that Smith has been unplugged from the system: Smith:"...and then something happened. Something that I knew was impossible, but it happened anyway. You destroyed me, Mr. Anderson (...) because of you I've changed, I'm unplugged, a new man, so to speak. Like you, apparently free."

Yes. Like Neo. Apparently free. But “as you well know, appearances can be deceiving..we are not free.” The cycle has not been aborted yet and Neo (like his predecessors) is still “following orders” (Merovingian) and “using all the muscles except the one that counts.” Keep in mind, Smith knows nothing of Neo’s visions.

tozy wrote:

Why would his prime goal still be to get out of the Matrix, when, as he says himself: "This is MY world"?

Once again that depends on what “Matrix” you’re talking about, not a MWaM, but the control. Notice at this point that I did not say his goal was to get out of the matrix at all but I’ll indulge you because in a sense it is.

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What does "I must get out of here. I must get free" mean?

Now you’re asking the right question!

tozy wrote:

This excerpt of a description of agent Grey (MxO) might give us an idea: "Even afterward, he has not been allowed to return to the Source, instead relegated to a buffer system created during the reboot—a gateway construct which acts as a Machine analog to the Merovingian's Mobil Avenue Station. In some ways he is almost an Exile, but for the fact that he believes he will eventually be able to return to the Source." Programs without a purpose..."can either choose to hide here, or return to the source" Since Smith wants to get out of the Matrix, we can assume that he strives to return to the source. Once he is unplugged, however..."I knew the rules, I understood what I was supposed to do, but I didn't; I couldn't; I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey" -> Smith: "I want exactly what you want. I want everything."

I don’t think MxO applies in the way you think it does. Agent Grey’s aspirations and Smith’s are quite different.

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Do you still believe that "exactly what you want" and "everything" is just to get out of the Matrix?

Let me ask you: Do you still think that getting out of “the matrix” can stand apart from the “everything”? To understand what I mean, read on.

Plot/Storyline:
Neo and Smith both want the game to end. The problem up till a point in the SuperBrawl is how exactly each of them desire it to end. Smith wants a complete, permanent victory for a change. Neo just wants victory for a change. Both of them play the game to get closer to their goals.

Neo is Smith in a sense and his opposite in another sense. Note the similarities and contrasts I briefly list above. But I don’t think it is a good idea to give it too much of an esoteric meaning by just saying their just Yin and Yang or – and + or some other unexplained reference without showing exactly how you apply that concept to all their actions and character.

The “One” is a title, therefore the “Anti-One” is a position that describe a course of action. But since the One is part of the “resistance”, could it be that the One is in itself anti-something? But what brought about the conditions that made a resistance necessary?

Real Life:
Governments and some of those who have positions in them go beyond the purpose of preserving order. Now you see the tendency to push toward global domination despite the fact (or in fact, because of, for all I know) that the course of action puts everyone’s survival at stake. Still they seek to impose their ideology on the minds (mental projections/RSI’s) of everyone else.

On the other hand, there are those who are disappointed with the whole scenario, work against it sometimes, and seek to find a better way of interacting with each other. These two mindsets are definitely on a collision course even if not ideologically opposed. But would the second mindset be seen as important if the first one was not as menacing? But what brought about the first mindset in the first place.

tozy wrote:

Well,... the real world perspective hasn't yet satisfied all my questions about the Revolutions final: Neo: "You cannot stop him, but I can." Why Neo alone?... If Neo and Smith are two separate identities, why not chose any other human infected by Smith and destroy him that way?

That’s because we haven’t seen this take place in our “matrix” yet. And keep in mind it was Neo, not Deus, who destroyed Smith using his powers.

tozy wrote:

Why "because I choose to"? -> Why must Neo transcend choice? Why can't he defeat Smith in fighting? -> Why must Neo surrender to Smith?

Now here’s where the films take on more of a spiritual tone. The W’s perhaps entertain the hope that the conflict will be resolved spiritually rather than a physical confrontation. Now that would indeed be a Revolution.

*Morpheus lays down the ‘sword’.

tozy wrote:

What are "delusion" and "truth" in the real world perspective as you understand it, and why delusion -> death, and truth -> immortality?

From both a religious perspective and a real world perspective we are talking about pretty much the same things. Your question reminds me of Matthew 7:13, where Jesus, talking about the real world, said that broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction (delusion, darkness, ignorance and of self- or society-imposed pursuits) and many are the ones finding it. Whereas narrow is the path and cramped is the road leading off into life (truth) and few are the ones finding it. (1% anomaly?)

Intell, could you summarize your view of neo=smith please ? I read what you said, but cant pinpoint exactly how you think the whole deal works out. Thanks.

Well intell likes to talk about filmbased proof and all, but if there is anything that is not quite been supported by real evidence in the movies it is about the question if Smith has been there during the six cycles or not.

You all seem to assume he is, but I don't think so.

Well, he might have been there each cycle, but then with a total memory loss. I red in the "Matrix Online" saga that when a reload happens, all the other programs return to the Source too and then get recompiled. Now what happens when a program restarts from scratch? It has to rebuild it's memory, so it has no memories from the past.

Ok, you might argue that Smith knows about the first Matrix, which was a heavenly place, but that could just have been 'uploaded' via the standard history lessons.

The main argument here is why-o-why would he want to get the Zion access codes from Morpheus when he knows that when he destroys Zion prior to the meisure of control, then the Matrix cannot be reloaded and thus an inevitable crash will follow in the course of time.

Well the only thing I can think of is that he is indeed tired of it and he wants the Matrix to crash, so that he doesn't need to be in that "zoo" anymore. But, as his collegues and his higher authorities seem to be aware of Smith's goal in M1, then would they simply allow it?

And why only chase after Morpheus, while there are so many other captains that could provide the access codes.
I think that the full story of the trilogy wasn't yet finished there. M1 was written with the main idea that it would be one movie. If you think about it, then Smith's purpose would not end when the red pills are dead, because in M2 it appears that it is also an agent's job to chase exiles.

The only vague proof we have that Smith has been around before is when he says: "It is happening exactly like before".

Hmm, when Smith would have been there for the sixth time, then why would he first send in the new upgraded agents as gimmy pigs in order to see how strong Neo is? Why wouldn't Smith have attacked Neo by himself?

It's vague...the exactly-part of his phrase is a hard one to decode. What is he referring to? To the fact that Neo is again beating three agents with the ease of one hand? Or simply to the scenes that happen at the start of a new meisure of control?

Also, we don't know how and by whom Smith was resurrected. Maybe he got the info about the reload from other programs, as he seems to assimilate programs all over the place. Or maybe Smith talked to the Merovingian, or maybe even to the Architect; who knows? We will never have the answer to it. So untill then it's alot about assuming, and I choose to assume that Smith was not there during all the cycles, at least not on a conscious level.

Oh and intell, one more thing...

The Oracle mostly meets in her apartment. And if not, there could have been thousands of sheltered places where she could have met with Neo, but no she chose the park, the ideal area to be spotted and the ideal area to have a good brawl, which in the world of the mind is nothing more than getting to know someone or something

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I think that the full story of the trilogy wasn't yet finished there. M1 was written with the main idea that it would be one movie. If you think about it, then Smith's purpose would not end when the red pills are dead, because in M2 it appears that it is also an agent's job to chase exiles.

Ι dont know about that. Lorenzo Di Bonnaventura (president , worldwide production, Warner Bros) had mentioned that the Wachowskis came to him with a trilogy, and HE told them they should first try 1 film, then see. Perhaps due to that (the possibility of the film floping and not being able to do the rest), they made some small changes to the story so that it could stand more by itself.

Indeed. But they still altered some things because the chance was there that M2 and M3 would not be made.

The Therion wrote:

Quote: I think that the full story of the trilogy wasn't yet finished there. M1 was written with the main idea that it would be one movie. If you think about it, then Smith's purpose would not end when the red pills are dead, because in M2 it appears that it is also an agent's job to chase exiles. Ι dont know about that. Lorenzo Di Bonnaventura (president , worldwide production, Warner Bros) had mentioned that the Wachowskis came to him with a trilogy, and HE told them they should first try 1 film, then see. Perhaps due to that (the possibility of the film floping and not being able to do the rest), they made some small changes to the story so that it could stand more by itself.

I was about to say that but you got there first.

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Well intell likes to talk about filmbased proof and all, but if there is anything that is not quite been supported by real evidence in the movies it is about the question if Smith has been there during the six cycles or not. You all seem to assume he is, but I don't think so.

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The only vague proof we have that Smith has been around before is when he says: "It is happening exactly like before". It's vague...the exactly-part of his phrase is a hard one to decode. What is he referring to? To the fact that Neo is again beating three agents with the ease of one hand? Or simply to the scenes that happen at the start of a new meisure of control?

First of all, its not the only statement that leads to that conclusion.

Smith: "I remember when chasing you was like chasing a ghost."
Seraph: "I have beaten you before."
Smith: "Yes. But as you can see, things are very different now."

This statement in itself even when coupled with the other statement does not equal a slam dunk. But then there is the "I'd like to share a revelation I had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species." Now none of these statements prove anything definitive as to how long Agent Smith has existed. But these things, when considered with the evidence of his knowledge of things indicate that our conclusions are within the context of the films.

But I'll give you that, for now. However, whether he really was around for the previous cycle or not isn't really pivotal to what I'm saying about his real world representations.

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But, as his collegues and his higher authorities seem to be aware of Smith's goal in M1, then would they simply allow it?

He gets his fellow agents to go along. If any of them were around before then you can compare them to politicians and officials who see how far the current trends are taking them from the standards they claim to abide by, yet they allow it to continue in that direction. If not, then...uh oh..the same thing, just through ignorance instead of passive or active compliance. It doesn't matter.

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why only chase after Morpheus, while there are so many other captains that could provide the access codes.

That's simple: "The informant is real."

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then Smith's purpose would not end when the red pills are dead, because in M2 it appears that it is also an agent's job to chase exiles.

No red pills, the matrix crashes and no blue pills. No blue pills, no exiles to worry about awakening them to the illusion, in fact, no matrix, no exiles, and eventually no machines.

"The purpose of life is to end."

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Oh and intell, one more thing...

Make it fast.

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The Oracle mostly meets in her apartment. And if not, there could have been thousands of sheltered places where she could have met with Neo, but no she chose the park, the ideal area to be spotted and the ideal area to have a good brawl.

"The Oracle has many enemies. I had to be sure...that you're the One."

"It's not safe."

With the Merovingian after her, she couldn't be at home. That's why Neo found the apartment empty, remember. But, of course, like all things, it depends on how you look at it, Mobil_Ave.

intell wrote:

"The Oracle has many enemies. I had to be sure...that you're the One." "It's not safe." With the Merovingian after her, she couldn't be at home. That's why Neo found the apartment empty, remember. But, of course, like all things, it depends on how you look at it, Mobil_Ave.

A) The Merovigian wasn't really after her untill she gave Neo the piece of paper with the exact time on it, which led to the Keymaker being taken from him (Keymaker equals powers) --> "If you take something from me, you will pay the price"

B) The Merovigian cannot be after her just like that --> the eyes of the Oracle can only be given; so stealing them won't do him any good.

C) The Oracle knows everything --> "if she knew I was coming, then why didn't she leave?"

D) She is not at home, because it isn't time for Neo to meet her yet.

E) She was sitting in a damn public park, while Seraph was playing with Neo. Wow! Are you save then? So she knew what she was doing!

F) Seraph is only the Oracle's assistant. He fights everyone who is going to meet her in order to be sure that they are who they claim to be.

I believe Seraph's purpose is not from machine origin. He was an exile, but the Oracle saved him by giving him purpose again: guardian of the Oracle. He is handy at fieldwork, that the old Oracle rather doesn't do, but I am sure she is smart enough to take care of herself.

smith is just the opposite of neo, how his powers came to be i have no idea. someone explain that to me.

A. Or she knew RamaKandra was in the process of betraying her. He was in the restaurant when Neo arrived and Merv said, "Run back and give ze 'fortune-teller' zis message, 'Her time is almost..up.'" Things are happening behind the seems besides the cycles.

B. See A.

C. She did leave. Her apartment and the park. "Our time's up...Good luck, kiddo."

D. That's one way to put it. But that's not the only reason.

E. But in reality she was about 5 paces away.

F. Right.

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I believe Seraph's purpose is not from machine origin. He was an exile, but the Oracle saved him by giving him purpose again: guardian of the Oracle. He is handy at fieldwork, that the old Oracle rather doesn't do, but I am sure she is smart enough to take care of herself.

Perhaps. He definitely is illumined, isn't he?

well these r all very good points but seraph is still a mystery to me...i cant seem to grasp his true nature.

intell wrote:

Smith might have been in the park because of the HER, rather than the other way around. The same is true about the disk Bane was to retrieve. Smith knows from past experience that SOMEONE has to contact her so he makes sure he’s not too far away. You could say he sees an opportunity (to enter the real world) and seizes the moment or you could say that he has been taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves.

And, maybe, because the Oracle knew Smith so well, she knew he would be in the park because of HER etc. etc...

Smith: The great and powerful Oracle. We meet at last. I suppose you've been expecting me, right? The all-knowing Oracle is never surprised. How can she be, she knows everything. But If that's true, then why is she here? If she knew I was coming, why didn't she leave? *sweeps plate of cookies off table* Maybe you knew I was going to do that, maybe you didn't. If you did, that means you baked those cookies and set that plate right there deliberately, purposefully. Which means you're sitting there also deliberately, purposefully
(...)
You would know, Mom.

intell wrote:

But when I raised the question of why Smith entered Bane, I meant what he sought to accomplish in that…"Let’s see if [Tozy] has any answers.”

Bane: There's nowhere I can't go, there's nowhere I won't find you.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

I also wondered why Smith just didn't focus on the destruction of the Matrix instead of obsessively chasing after Neo

He can't but focus on Neo, because they are connected as two aspects of one identity...

intell wrote:

If you say that Smith cannot deny his Purpose/Karma, I think even Tozy will have to disagree because that is exactly what Smith has been doing so far.

Has Smith been denying his purpose? What was his purpose?

Smith: We're not here because we're free, we're here because we're not free. There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose - because as we both know, without purpose, we would not exist...

The Therion wrote:

Intell, could you summarize your view of neo=smith please ? I read what you said, but cant pinpoint exactly how you think the whole deal works out. Thanks.

I agree.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Neo: "You cannot stop him, but I can." Why Neo alone?... If Neo and Smith are two separate identities, why not chose any other human infected by Smith and destroy him that way? That’s because we haven’t seen this take place in our “matrix” yet. And keep in mind it was Neo, not Deus, who destroyed Smith using his powers.

Because we haven't seen it yet? What? I'm not sure I understand...
And what is Neo's powers in your opinion? What is the light? And what is DEM?

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Why "because I choose to"? -> Why must Neo transcend choice? Why can't he defeat Smith in fighting? -> Why must Neo surrender to Smith? Now here’s where the films take on more of a spiritual tone. The W’s perhaps entertain the hope that the conflict will be resolved spiritually rather than a physical confrontation. Now that would indeed be a Revolution.

And that's where your real world interpretation must fail me.
As Wilber says so rightfully in the DVD commentary, with the last minutes of Revolutions seen, everything else falls into place.
In this final, the climax of the trilogy, Neo finally understands,... what?

Neo: You were rights, Smith, you were always right,.... it was inevitable

The blinding -> seeing the light, the Upanishads, the visual and audio language,... in the end, we clearly see the moment of enlightenment happen.
Enlightenment is nothing to do with anything social, it concerns solely your self,... or no-self.
So, what does Neo conquer in the end?

I don't deny the real world level of the trilogy,... at all!
But,... the more the trilogy proceeds towards its climatic final, the deeper it digs into the personal -> know THYSELF. And that is a logic path,.... because the personal is the ground of the social -> The Matrix trilogy does dig all the way to the bottom.

tozy wrote:

And what is Neo's powers in your opinion? What is the light? And what is DEM?

If the films really are an exploration of consciousness, who's consciousness is being explored? What are Neo's powers? We know that they stretch all the way back to the Source. And I believe Neo contains the "primary program" the singluar intelligence that spawned a race of machines.

Who is DEM? He seems to be the primary program that controls the machines. If all this is correct, then you have to ask what DEM's relation to the Ones is?

tozy wrote:

And that's where your real world interpretation must fail me.... Enlightenment is nothing to do with anything social, it concerns solely your self,... or no-self. So, what does Neo conquer in the end?

A comparable example of the relationship between Neo and Smith exists in this very forum. Think of all the fights major and minor that have errupted across these pages. In every instance the contenders were, on one level, two seperate entities. But as they fight they begin quoting each other, trading "code" or in this case words between each other. Statements are recycled and reused so that to understand one post you must understand the other post... To an outsider the two contenders here become one thread. The two view points unit into a cohesive set of arguments.

And from the arguers standpoint, who are they arguing with? I am reminded of when intell said that he thought that story about me teaching my wife to growl was funny. He said he could picture "my" face during the events and that made him laugh. But who's face was he picturing? Certainly not the true face of my real world identity. He was picturing some face he'd made up or a face that belonged to someone in the past he identifies me with.

When you read the counter posts arguing against your ideas, whose voice are the posts read in. The poster's, or yours?

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And, maybe, because the Oracle knew Smith so well, she knew he would be in the park because of HER etc. etc... Smith: The great and powerful Oracle. We meet at last. I suppose you've been expecting me, right? The all-knowing Oracle is never surprised. How can she be, she knows everything. But If that's true, then why is she here? If she knew I was coming, why didn't she leave? *sweeps plate of cookies off table* Maybe you knew I was going to do that, maybe you didn't. If you did, that means you baked those cookies and set that plate right there deliberately, purposefully. Which means you're sitting there also deliberately, purposefully

I said as much earlier as well. Hmm. Okay.

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Bane: There's nowhere I can't go, there's nowhere I won't find you.

Exactly. He entered Bane to kill Neo. Every effort of the Smith/Bane was to do this before the Reload.

"I just wanted to wish you good luck." (Yeah, right)

"Captain, I think we should volunteer." (Shut your hole, Bane...)

After coming to in the Hammer's sick bay, why pursue Neo, you ask? Same ol' reason. I'm surprised at some of you. Bane/Smith takes the Logos into machine city and has some real options. No esoteric explanation necessary.

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Has Smith been denying his purpose? What was his purpose?

To "work" for the system not make it "work" for him.

tozy wrote:

The Therion wrote: Intell, could you summarize your view of neo=smith please ? I read what you said, but cant pinpoint exactly how you think the whole deal works out. Thanks. I agree.

You'll see as time and posts continue. But you really have enough from my posts to see where I'm coming from even as you have enough from the films to see where Smith is coming from. My giving you an answer does you no favors, the map shows the right directions. Sound familiar, eh Tozy Ask CaptPostMod and Vanexel. They know what's going on.

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Because we haven't seen it yet? What? I'm not sure I understand...

We haven't seen the fulfillment of this expression of hope on the part of the Wachowski's > A massive change in perspective on the part of at least a segment of the manipulated masses that could affect mankind in a beneficial way.

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And what is Neo's powers in your opinion?

Stopping sentinels outside the matrix, destroying Smith (the first time) within the matrix. Neo stopped Smith, not DeM. Just like he said earlier.

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What is the light? And what is DEM?

SEE CaptPostMod's post below.

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But,... the more the trilogy proceeds towards its climatic final, the deeper it digs into the personal -> know THYSELF. And that is a logic path,.... because the personal is the ground of the social -> The Matrix trilogy does dig all the way to the bottom.

If you say so. The point is fighting against the system is not the way to go. Revolutions are cyclical. 'Two minutes later, the freedom fighter becomes the tyrant he overthrew.' (loose quote from The Interpreter)

A true revolution must be one of the mind/thinking/perspective/perception. If you think the Atman or Anatman or meditation is the key, well to each his or her own. But people better wake up and soon. Well some people are becoming aware but they are just the exception to the rule aka anomaly.
-------------------CaptPostMod's post-----------

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If the films really are an exploration of consciousness, who's consciousness is being explored?

Indeed. They didn't mean just within the films either. The creators are having the chance to observe the conscious levels of the audience, they invited critics of the movie who didn't like it. This was for a reason. So is MxO.

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A comparable example of the relationship between Neo and Smith exists in this very forum. Think of all the fights major and minor that have errupted across these pages. In every instance the contenders were, on one level, two seperate entities. But as they fight they begin quoting each other, trading "code" or in this case words between each other. Statements are recycled and reused so that to understand one post you must understand the other post... To an outsider the two contenders here become one thread. The two view points unit into a cohesive set of arguments. And from the arguers standpoint, who are they arguing with? I am reminded of when intell said that he thought that story about me teaching my wife to growl was funny. He said he could picture "my" face during the events and that made him laugh. But who's face was he picturing? Certainly not the true face of my real world identity. He was picturing some face he'd made up or a face that belonged to someone in the past he identifies me with. When you read the counter posts arguing against your ideas, whose voice are the posts read in. The poster's, or yours?

Wow. CaptPostMod steps off the scene for a while and comes back with sagacious insights!

This is a very good example of what I mean by unified or integral posting. When you can arrive at the same conclusion using all the perspectives and approaches, that is something. What you just said is true using the real world perspective too. All you have to do is change the word, "fights" to "cycles", "pages" to "system of control" and the final question to reflect on why Neo is actually participating in the game. And you have a choice not even the Oracle can see past.

btw. That story about growling still gets me. And you must forgive me for that one because I know it is mostly how I take it (the event and how you related it) that makes it funny, rather than your intent.

I think Thomas Anderson's relationship to his alter ego and his alter ego's nemesis, Agent Smith, has a lot to do with a person's relationship to myth in general.

What is the connection between Neo and Smith from Thomas Anderson's point of view? From the point of view of Neo as nothing more than a man? There is very little connection there. Smith and Mr. Anderson's number of conversations can be counted on one hand. Anderson as Neo imagines he has some close tie to Smith, that if he can just change or defeat Smith he can change and defeat everyone. Smith believes the same thing about Neo. But the connection is just a myth externalized. Smith as Neo is merely Thomas Anderson's way of defining himself as Neo. "I am the one that beat's you." That is how both of them are defining themselves, and that is their one and only connection in reality. But the internalization of that has spawned a world where it is true. Where they truely have become two halves of one whole which feels that one half must overcome the other. That is where myth begins...

"Myth is not just an event of long ago. Rather, myth is another reality, one that we are facing right now. It is our everyday life. By realizing this and treating myth in this way, we are serving its true purpose." Seon Buddhist Monk Woncheol