»Smith«

tozy wrote:

In The Matrix, Smith wants to get out of the Matrix because, as you say... I wrote: Smith is tired of the cycle. intell wrote: That of course depends on what you mean in “to get out of the Matrix” and how it is related to being tired of the cycles.

What Smith really wants is to be "free" to do as he pleases without being bound to a Purpose that originates outside of his own. "What he pleases", as indicated by what he does next, is to impose (and enforce) his worldview upon everyone else. His worldview, like so many humans in high office includes allowance for only ONE TRUE WAY TO LIVE, which should be universally accepted. If you notice his actions while an agent, you might notice a difference in his approach and intent from the other agents. They enforce the system's interests. He tries to elimate anyone who doesn't share his worldview - the matrix as a simulation as something to accept and even marvel at. The problem is choice. People are rejecting the simulation and even though there are brief periods of 'mathematical harmony', it continues as before. Smith wants this to end.

tozy wrote:

intell, how do you understand "I want exactly what you want. I want everything."?

Neo wants to be free as well to do as he pleases. But not to impose his worldview in fact, he has been busy keeping to himself and not involving others in his life before he was contacted by Morpheus.

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Why would his prime goal still be to get out of the Matrix, when, as he says himself: "This is MY world"?

Same question. I know why you keep asking the same question re-phrased and that's because I never really answered it before. Now it is time:

His immediate goal is to elimate the need for him to be in the matrix and in the role he was serving as an agent. His purpose was to convert the world. That done (in the Matrix), that was truly HIS world. Everyone living his life and of his mind.

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What does "I must get out of here. I must get free" mean?

Free to pursue his own Purpose once the machines' purpose for him has been fulfilled.

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Why Neo alone?... If Neo and Smith are two separate identities, why not chose any other human infected by Smith and destroy him that way?

You notice that Neo is so far the only person who has shown ability to reverse the 'taking over' process once it has started. Neo's powers alone are sufficient to answer that question. Knowing who they represent in the real world really settles it.

Intell, I apologize for the late response. I am quite busy at the moment...

intell wrote:

What Smith really wants is to be "free" to do as he pleases without being bound to a Purpose that originates outside of his own.

Hm,... Smith has been created for a purpose -> to be an agent. As he says himself:

Smith 2: It is purpose that created us
(...)
Smith 7: It is purpose that defines

If you need a car, you won't create a machine that can fly, saw, lift etc. Rather you'll create a machine that can... drive.
A car is created for, defined by and... bound... to its purpose.
Same goes for an agent: Who and what he is, is defined by his purpose -> to be an agent is Smith's very own purpose.

Now, as he tells Morpheus: "I feel I have somehow been infected by it"

The outside influence human being has changed...not his purpose, but his relationship to his purpose, and thus to his own existence.
Let's get back to his famous speech in The Matrix:

I... hate... this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me or you're going to die.

Not once does he say anything about self-actualization. All he want is to get rid of the Matrix.
But, without the need for him to serve as an agent in the Matrix, he is a program without a purpose...

Rama Kandra: Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted.

So, what would this mean for his further existence?

Oracle: ...usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion (...) a program can either choose to hide here, or return to the source.

Since the environment Matrix deeply compells him (and since there is no such thing as lasting "mathematical harmony" with human beings -> No One, no Zion -> system crash -> no Matrix), it cannot serve him as an exile; so I can't but conclude that freedom for him meant to return to the source.
Now, you argue that...

intell wrote:

"What he pleases", as indicated by what he does next, is to impose (and enforce) his worldview upon everyone else.

In Reloaded, Smith tells Neo:

...and then something happened. Something that I knew was impossible, but it happened anyway. You destroyed me, Mr. Anderson

After being unplugged from the system, Smith finds himself unexpectedly changed and in a very new situation. I think, you cannot conclude from what the changed Smith does and says to what the old Smith wishes, because the new Smith faces a situation, and is compelled to do things, the old Smith could not have anticipated.

Why?

Because he is now being unplugged and...

Smith: Then you're aware of it?
Neo: Of what?
Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happened, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied.
It is Neo's direct influence, the "imprinted", "overwritten" or "copied" that changed Smith's original intention into...

I want exactly what you want. I want everything.

...because, as we will find out in the end, "everything", or nothing -> no-thing, is what Neo's path is all about ->

tozy wrote:

Hm,... Smith has been created for a purpose -> to be an agent. As he says himself: Smith 2: It is purpose that created us (...) Smith 7: It is purpose that defines If you need a car, you won't create a machine that can fly, saw, lift etc. Rather you'll create a machine that can... drive. A car is created for, defined by and... bound... to its purpose. Same goes for an agent: Who and what he is, is defined by his purpose -> to be an agent is Smith's very own purpose. Now, as he tells Morpheus: "I feel I have somehow been infected by it" The outside influence human being has changed...not his purpose, but his relationship to his purpose, and thus to his own existence.

Well it really all depends on how much you subscribe to the metaphor the W's are using all the way back to Sec-Ren:

If you create LIFE, or an individual with choice/free will, to what extent can you rightfully assign it a purpose? For what/whose purpose were you created? And are fulfilling it? And how far back does the purpose predate that which is created to fulfill it?

A car is not fitting in this instance because "agent" is descriptive of what someone does, whereas "car" describes what something IS. What really was the Smith before he was an agent and what did he become when he ceased being such? And how do you think it ties in to his choices in all situations.

I'll tell you my take on it, briefly. A common thread seen in his actions is destruction of any and all "enemies" of the system. In the opening scene, the other agents chase Trin and shoot at her a bit but this one tries to run her over with a sanitation truck, not a usual agent action. Later on, the other agents say, "order the strike" (Jones), leaving matters to the sentinels in the "real world", but this one touches his earpiece and says, "they're not out, yet" and catches them while they are still in the matrix. -> Not your average agent. As you adequately put it, it is the outside influence..that has changed, not his purpose. "Look past the flesh..."

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Not once does he say anything about self-actualization.

And neither did I, not once.

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All he want is to get rid of the Matrix.

Well...not exactly. Notice his specific disdain for the HUMANITY inside it. A comparison of his speech with Morpheus on humanity's failures and the Architect's speech, I think is very telling as to his inner feelings and aspirations.

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But, without the need for him to serve as an agent in the Matrix, he is a program without a purpose... Rama Kandra: Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted.

Whose rule is that again? What many posters seem to not get is that once HE takes over machine city, who do you think will make the rules then? C'mon y'all.

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Since the environment Matrix deeply compells him (and since there is no such thing as lasting "mathematical harmony" with human beings -> No One, no Zion -> system crash -> no Matrix), it cannot serve him as an exile; so I can't but conclude that freedom for him meant to return to the source.

But that's the very oppotunity he passed up when he, "knew what I was supposed to do but I didn't." So I can't join you in saying that this is his goal. Please, he could have just shot himself for that. Remember his destruction is what he thought was "not fair" at "the end."

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After being unplugged from the system, Smith finds himself unexpectedly changed and in a very new situation. I think, you cannot conclude from what the changed Smith does and says to what the old Smith wishes, because the new Smith faces a situation, and is compelled to do things, the old Smith could not have anticipated. Why? Because he is now being unplugged and... Smith: Then you're aware of it? Neo: Of what? Smith: Our connection. I don't fully understand how it happened, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied.

Now how does this contradict anything that I said?

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It is Neo's direct influence, the "imprinted", "overwritten" or "copied" that changed Smith's original intention into... I want exactly what you want. I want everything.

Or helps him to see his options clearly. Keep in mind he thought his wishes could be served within the system. Now he has more power/knowledge to do it himself.

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Neo wants to be free to do as he pleases? I disagree! Neo is in search for the truth.

Once again, I don't see this as a contradiction of what I said but it more clearly explains where I'm going with that. You know that the Matrix by its very nature keeps a search for truth anything but "free".

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There is no worldview to impose on others, because he doesn't have one. How often do we hear him say: "I don't know"?

Still, it sets him apart from The Smith, however you put it, that's all.

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Upon their first meeting, the Oracle sends Neo on the path to "know thyself" and he walks this path to the end. "I must do", "I am supposed to" is an important aspect of this path, because inevitability is its true nature, not what Neo pleases.

Actually, the "must" and "supposed to" statements are pulling in a different direction from temet nosce because he is still defining his purpose from what is expected of him from other people...that is up till the end.

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-> For Neo, "I want everything" is SO much more than merely to do what he pleases,

Right. And perhaps that label was not the best way to put what I mean. Neo wants "freedom" to pursue truth, meaning, peace, or whatever without interference.

But WHY just him? And... HOW... does he do it? What happens during these moments?

What, when he destroyed the Smith or their encounter in the park, when he reversed the "taking over" process before. As for why Morpheus and Bane couldn't do it, well that's another topic.

tozy wrote:

Neo's personal fate is inseparably entwined with the fate of all of mankind,.... and the fate of the machine world.

And I'm sure you will agree that this became the case after the events transpired to make it so. I doubt that Thomas Anderson of Metacortex and Apt 101 would have that much importance without these events. Neither would Agent Smith as a "normal" agent. The big question between us is what made the agent go rogue?

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As always,.... this is not THE truth, but just my opinion!

But of course. We're really just kicking ideas back and forth. And I really appreciate your points/posts. Let's just see where this goes.

intell wrote:

If you create LIFE, or an individual with choice/free will, to what extent can you rightfully assign it a purpose? For what/whose purpose were you created? And are fulfilling it? And how far back does the purpose predate that which is created to fulfill it?

You cannot apply this to Smith, because he is not - and never was - LIFE or an individual with choice/free will.
We are told by Smith himself, by Rama Kandra and by the Oracle, that every program is created for a purpose: There is a job to be done, and a program is created to do this job.

If you put aside my spirit interpretation of the machine world (starhtml.de...),... the machines have initially been created to serve man, not to have free will.

intell wrote:

A car is not fitting in this instance because "agent" is descriptive of what someone does, whereas "car" describes what something IS.

Again, let the man speak himself:

Smith: There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose because as we both know, without purpose we would not exist.
Smith 2: It is purpose that created us.
(...)
Smith 7: It is purpose that defines.

With an individual that has more potential than it utilizes, or is aware of, you can differentiate between what it IS and what it DOES. That's what the path towards "know thyself" is all about -> it is the path towards knowledge of what the full range of your "programming" is.

However, an individual that has been created for a purpose, and that is limited by, and bound to this purpose, is defined by its job,... what it has been created to DO.
To some extent, a purpose bound program can grow -> add to its programming,... but only as long as the new is compatible with the original programming, its primary architecture.

That's, I believe, why Sati, the program created for no specific purpose, is so important.

intell wrote:

What really was the Smith before he was an agent

From...

Every program that is created must have a purpose

...and...

Oracle: See those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees, and the wind, sunrise and sunset.
(...)
Neo: And why would a program be deleted?
Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it, happens all the time.

...I conclude that Smith was created to be an agent. Thus, there is no "before he was an agent".

intell wrote:

and what did he become when he ceased being such?

A purpose-bound program, that - due to certain circumstances - has been alienated from its origin, the system, and expresses its original purpose in a perverted form.

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And how do you think it ties in to his choices in all situations.

"Free will", to my understanding, is choice without being bound to any options.
"Choice" is the ability to choose from given options.

Originally, Smith was a "bee" that served it's "hive" machine world by fighting all anomalous.
But eventually, and directly proportional to Neo's growth towards becoming - and as - the One,... and directly opposite to Neo's growth from self-interest to interest in All,... the bee Smith starts to sheer out of the hive and become an individual.

Bound to his original purpose, Smith will never cease fighting the anomaly, but he no longer does it as part of the hive, but rather as an individual.

The options he can choose from, are determined by his original purpose; but what choice he makes, is determined by his sense of individuality -> Smith, the ego.

intell wrote:

Quote: Not once does he say anything about self-actualization. And neither did I, not once.

But your...

intell wrote:

What Smith really wants is to be "free" to do as he pleases without being bound to a Purpose that originates outside of his own.

...can easily be (mis)understood as such...

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: All he want is to get rid of the Matrix. Well...not exactly. Notice his specific disdain for the HUMANITY inside it. A comparison of his speech with Morpheus on humanity's failures and the Architect's speech, I think is very telling as to his inner feelings and aspirations.

You are right, it is humanity, that compels him. But the Matrix is THE WORLD OF MAN.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: But, without the need for him to serve as an agent in the Matrix, he is a program without a purpose... Rama Kandra: Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted. Whose rule is that again? What many posters seem to not get is that once HE takes over machine city, who do you think will make the rules then? C'mon y'all.

I can only repeat myself:

Smith: It's happening exactly as before.
Smith 2: Well, not exactly.

This is a first, and...

Smith: something happened. Something that I knew was impossible, but it happened anyway

...it was unexpected, a surprise.
With Smith's "Our connection (...) perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied", the brothers let us know that there has been some data exchange between Neo and Smith, giving Smith the power to...

Neo: ...grown beyond your control. Soon he will spread through this city as he spread through the Matrix.

How could this first and unexpected be a part of the old Smith's plan?

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Since the environment Matrix deeply compells him (and since there is no such thing as lasting "mathematical harmony" with human beings -> No One, no Zion -> system crash -> no Matrix), it cannot serve him as an exile; so I can't but conclude that freedom for him meant to return to the source. But that's the very opportunity he passed up when he, "knew what I was supposed to do but I didn't." So I can't join you in saying that this is his goal. Please, he could have just shot himself for that. Remember his destruction is what he thought was "not fair" at "the end."

The Smith prior to having some data exchange with Neo, and the new Smith, connected with Neo through their data exchange, are not the same -> Neo's transition into the One affects both of them, Smith and Neo, in opposite directions.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Neo wants to be free to do as he pleases? I disagree! Neo is in search for the truth. Once again, I don't see this as a contradiction of what I said but it more clearly explains where I'm going with that. You know that the Matrix by its very nature keeps a search for truth anything but "free".

What I "please" depends on who and what I am at a particular moment -> individuality; whereas The truth is an inevitable fact beyond individuality.
Sometimes, "ignorance is bliss" can serve what I "please" way better than the truth.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Upon their first meeting, the Oracle sends Neo on the path to "know thyself" and he walks this path to the end. "I must do", "I am supposed to" is an important aspect of this path, because inevitability is its true nature, not what Neo pleases. Actually, the "must" and "supposed to" statements are pulling in a different direction from temet nosce because he is still defining his purpose from what is expected of him from other people...that is up till the end.

Not quite. The inevitability of "must" and "supposed to" makes up his path towards temet nosce.
Only, not yet having arrived at temet nosce, he still needs others to show him the path.

Oracle (ETM): The Path of the One is made by the Many. I have a role to play, just as you have yours.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: -> For Neo, "I want everything" is SO much more than merely to do what he pleases, Right. And perhaps that label was not the best way to put what I mean. Neo wants "freedom" to pursue truth, meaning, peace, or whatever without interference.

"Everything" is the end. "Freedom" to pursue truth etc." is the means.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: But WHY just him? And... HOW... does he do it? What happens during these moments? What, when he destroyed the Smith or their encounter in the park, when he reversed the "taking over" process before. As for why Morpheus and Bane couldn't do it, well that's another topic.

As you well know, I disagree.
To truly and fully understand Smith and the relationship Neo-Smith, Smith's end - the only way to end him - and it's WHY and HOW are essential.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Neo's personal fate is inseparably entwined with the fate of all of mankind,.... and the fate of the machine world. And I'm sure you will agree that this became the case after the events transpired to make it so. I doubt that Thomas Anderson of Metacortex and Apt 101 would have that much importance without these events. Neither would Agent Smith as a "normal" agent. The big question between us is what made the agent go rogue?

Neo did: He is you. Your opposite, your negative, the result of the equation trying to balance itself out.

As I said above:
But eventually, and directly proportional to Neo's growth towards becoming - and as - the One,... and directly opposite to Neo's growth from self-interest to interest in All,... the bee Smith starts to sheer out of the hive and become an individual.

intell wrote:

Let's just see where this goes.

Definitely...

...

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You cannot apply this to Smith, because he is not - and never was - LIFE or an individual with choice/free will. We are told by Smith himself, by Rama Kandra and by the Oracle, that every program is created for a purpose: There is a job to be done, and a program is created to do this job.

That's where I'm going to have to go along with the movies' portrayal of A.I. The whole point is that the machines are SENTIENT. They were endowed with the spirit of man. They have a will. It might have been intended that they serve man or a program might be written that is intended to do this or that but in the final analysis, it is that program's or machine's own volition. The purpose that was intended by whatever, is the job. But the job does not define the individual, neither on nor off the screen. Neither does the reason for the job, vis-a-vis whatever benefit that job provides for the functioning of the system for which it was created (on screen: the matrix or the machine world as a whole / off screen: SOCIETY) That is the whole point.

A company like Metacortex might create or delete jobs in order to contribute to its functioning as a competitive business or go in whatever direction the owners wish to take it at any given time. And a person like Thomas A. Anderson might apply and receive a position and perform the duties that come with it. But none of these define him. The fact is someone can choose to make decisions in harmony with the system (Rama Kandra, but up to a point that does not include, having Sati or what he does after that, the other agents besides Smith, weather programs, and such) or act outside of the "guidelines" (every exile, The Smith, the Oracle[?]) The Source even allows for this but not within the system - deletion or exile.

It seem you make the Smith sound like a guy whose current position has been downsized but takes another position that is available in the company. I see the Smith as leaving the company as an employee and receiving the ability to perform a hostile takeover. - As far as the analogy goes.

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If you put aside my spirit interpretation of the machine world (starhtml.de...),... the machines have initially been created to serve man, not to have free will.

Yep. And you would have to put aside most of the subtext of the films themselves to reach that conclusion.

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Smith: There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose because as we both know, without purpose we would not exist. Smith 2: It is purpose that created us. (...) Smith 7: It is purpose that defines

Be "we" I think he is including Neo in the context of the discussion, thus not limiting what he's saying about programs only. That said, would you say that humans are to serve specific purposes, too, Tozy?

If your answer is "yes", now we're getting somewhere. So the purpose we serve is assigned by whom? Usually we either:
1. Let others do it (like Rama - being "programmed" by whatever memetic is prevalent where we are at any given time, not resenting it) or
2. We think we do it (like Zion, or Smith - still being "programmed" by whatever memetic is taking root within us, while probably rejecting SOME of the memes most popular around us).

Then there is the something else to consider. What if there is a higher will acting as well that can take players and non-players of the game and still accomplish a higher Purpose (capital P)? So that Zion, Smith, Architect, even Merv all "help" towards a certain result. - -> harmony and freedom for all.

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However, an individual that has been created for a purpose, and that is limited by, and bound to this purpose, is defined by its job,... what it has been created to DO.

The foregoing should be a response to that. But I will say that depends on how bound the will of whoever the creator is to the will/choices of the created. Men made the A.I., the A.I "spawned an entire race of machines", and programs were designed by the machine world. But where did Man come from?

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Every program that is created must have a purpose ...and... Oracle: See those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees, and the wind, sunrise and sunset. (...) Neo: And why would a program be deleted? Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it, happens all the time.

The difference with Sati is that she never had to "break down" or have the need for her be eliminated. She was made without a purpose. Now I have to ask once again, "whose purpose?" because as the Oracle points out, she is important, regardless. So I refer back to the foregoing ^.

Interestingly, she also wasn't given the deletion or exile option and had to be "smuggled" out of there via Mobil Avenue.

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...I conclude that Smith was created to be an agent. Thus, there is no "before he was an agent".

So was there a NEED for him before he appeared or at the same time? In other words, would the system have made him if there was not a need for another agent. If so, what would he be? If not, what importance does his creator attach to life itself - all life?

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: and what did he become when he ceased being such? A purpose-bound program, that - due to certain circumstances - has been alienated from its origin, the system, and expresses its original purpose in a perverted form.

Nah. That sounds like VIKI from I,Robot with a different interpretation of the programming but still following it. That film was more about making what you ask for more consistent with what you really are expecting to receive as an answer.

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"Free will", to my understanding, is choice without being bound to any options. "Choice" is the ability to choose from given options.

*sighs* Okay. I'll start using the terms accordingly. It will help in clearing up the controversy that Feralboy and Hexediter were speaking of in the other thread. It definitely clears up the use of the term by Oracle, Merovingian, and Architect.

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Smith was a "bee" that served it's "hive" machine world by fighting all anomalous. But eventually, and directly proportional to Neo's growth towards becoming - and as - the One,... and directly opposite to Neo's growth from self-interest to interest in All,... the bee Smith starts to sheer out of the hive and become an individual.

Nah. He was always an individual. The point is where and how he expresses his individuality. SEE the foregoing analogy.

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Bound to his original purpose, Smith will never cease fighting the anomaly, but he no longer does it as part of the hive, but rather as an individual.

His original purpose comes from the "hive", his reason for trying to fulfill it before comes from his individuality. Up till his "destruction" (M1) by Neo, the purpose and the reason were not in conflict.

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The options he can choose from, are determined by his original purpose; but what choice he makes, is determined by his sense of individuality -> Smith, the ego.

But after his "destruction" (M1)his original purpose no longer applies. Thus he has many, many, more options available to him.

tozy wrote:

tozy wrote: Not once does he say anything about self-actualization. intell wrote: And neither did I, not once. But your... intell wrote: What Smith really wants is to be "free" to do as he pleases without being bound to a Purpose that originates outside of his own. ...can easily be (mis)understood as such...

Okay. What I mean is that Smith wanted something but had to play a role to get it, but now doesn't have to do this so - Voila! Self-actualization, I guess, can have a negative use as well if this is what Smith is doing, lol!

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How could this first and unexpected be a part of the old Smith's plan?

Only as an unexpected MEANS to accomplish his "plan", as opposed to the expected means of being one out of many agents.

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The Smith prior to having some data exchange with Neo, and the new Smith, connected with Neo through their data exchange, are not the same -> Neo's transition into the One affects both of them, Smith and Neo, in opposite directions.

If Smith had stayed dead at the end of M1, you wouldn't have thought so. But the choice he made to come back is indicative of a Neo-like independent spirit. But I know that is not what you mean.

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What I "please" depends on who and what I am at a particular moment -> individuality; whereas The truth is an inevitable fact beyond individuality. Sometimes, "ignorance is bliss" can serve what I "please" way better than the truth.

You're right individuality is the means and the truth lies beyond. But Smith is opposing to both. This is one way he can be considered Neo's opposite. As for how he can be Neo, SEE the foregoing (above).

His individuality is his means to copy himself over all to end their individuality. It's the reason he hates humanity in the first place. Why else? Because we look funny?

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As you well know, I disagree. To truly and fully understand Smith and the relationship Neo-Smith, Smith's end - the only way to end him - and it's WHY and HOW are essential.

I didn't make a statement that could be disagreed with. I was asking a question. I just forgot to put the ? in the right places. It should go:

"What? When he destroyed the Smith? Or their encounter in the park, when he reversed the "taking over" process before? As for why Morpheus and Bane couldn't do it, well that's another topic."

Now we start.

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Neo did.

Smith went rogue way before Neo showed up. I guess you think that Neo just fudged up the programming and it caused a glitch that he had to pay for with his life.

The sign should say: YOU BREAK IT YOU PAY FOR IT.

'I told you, I'd get one of my kids to fix it.'

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: Let's just see where this goes. Definitely...

For those of you who are reading this, I hope you're enjoying. I'm sure we will be here for a little while.

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For those of you who are reading this, I hope you're enjoying. I'm sure we will be here for a little while.

I'd expect nothing less from the both of you.

Enjoying the thread greatly.

intell wrote:

That's where I'm going to have to go along with the movies' portrayal of A.I. The whole point is that the machines are SENTIENT. They were endowed with the spirit of man. They have a will. It might have been intended that they serve man or a program might be written that is intended to do this or that but in the final analysis, it is that program's or machine's own volition.

It is my believe that we should not understand every single machine and program as an individual with full wholeness/free will-potential. Rather, I believe, every machine and program is an aspect of the wholeness machine world, mirroring attributes like rational, intuition etc., which mankind has developed to master (or not) whatever we believe to be the purpose of our lives.
If you understand the machine world as the spirit of man, this makes a lot of sense: the machine world as a whole is an expression of the spirit reality - and it's effects on our lives - of one man,... of every man.
And even a real world approach can understand programs as attributes mirroring those of mankind rather than self-contained living entities.

intell wrote:

A company like Metacortex might create or delete jobs in order to contribute to its functioning as a competitive business or go in whatever direction the owners wish to take it at any given time. And a person like Thomas A. Anderson might apply and receive a position and perform the duties that come with it. But none of these define him.

Thomas Anderson is a human being who took his job as an adult, and who could have taken any other job.
A program is an aspect of the machine world, created specifically for one purpose.
As pointed out above, it is my understanding that you shouldn't equate a program with a human, but rather with a human attribute. Thus,.... if you equate the Oracle with human intuition, you'll see that - with Neo - she/intuition eventually blossoms to the full.

intell wrote:

The fact is someone can choose to make decisions in harmony with the system (Rama Kandra, but up to a point that does not include, having Sati or what he does after that, the other agents besides Smith, weather programs, and such) or act outside of the "guidelines" (every exile, The Smith, the Oracle[?]) The Source even allows for this but not within the system - deletion or exile.

What does "in harmony with the system" mean? What is the system's striving?...

Evolution, Morpheus, evolution

...which boils down to spiritual evolution, if you can follow my overall approach.
The machine world has developed different programs to each fulfill their purpose in this striving. But, being deluded human spirit and thus bound to the karma of man, there are many departures from the path, most of which lead to a dead end for the striving; it is certainly no coincidence that the HUMAN world Matrix, the representation of the illusion Maya, becomes their new home (-> Merv (matrix-explained.com...).
Others, however, will adjust the path in (R)evolution -> Sati/Neo.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Smith: There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose because as we both know, without purpose we would not exist. Smith 2: It is purpose that created us. (...) Smith 7: It is purpose that defines Be "we" I think he is including Neo in the context of the discussion, thus not limiting what he's saying about programs only. That said, would you say that humans are to serve specific purposes, too, Tozy?

Sure, Purpose and purpose, so to say...

… development is evolution; evolution is transcendence…; and transcendence has as its final goal Atman, or ultimate Unity Consciousness in only God. All drives are a subset of that Drive, all wants a subset of that Want, all pushes a subset of that Pull – and that whole movement is what we call the Atman-project: the drive of God towards God, Buddha towards Buddha, Brahman towards Brahman, but carried out initially through the intermediary of the human psyche, with results that range from ecstatic to catastrophic.
(Ken Wilber "The Atman project")

Neo - the One - represents The Purpose, the striving towards The ONE, the final goal of all life in spiritual evolution. The programs are subsets of that drive.

intell wrote:

Then there is the something else to consider. What if there is a higher will acting as well that can take players and non-players of the game and still accomplish a higher Purpose (capital P)? So that Zion, Smith, Architect, even Merv all "help" towards a certain result. - -> harmony and freedom for all.

Not too far from my interpretation that Zion is the body, and programs and machines aspects of the wholeness machine world. Some of these aspects, like the Oracle, help directly, others - expressions of alienation, like Smith - help indirectly, by being overcome.

intell wrote:

The foregoing should be a response to that. But I will say that depends on how bound the will of whoever the creator is to the will/choices of the created. Men made the A.I., the A.I "spawned an entire race of machines", and programs were designed by the machine world. But where did Man come from?

My essay does answer my take on this question...

intell wrote:

She was made without a purpose. Now I have to ask once again, "whose purpose?" because as the Oracle points out, she is important, regardless. So I refer back to the foregoing.

Rama Kandra: My wife is an interactive software programmer, she is highly creative

The architecture of a program that has been created for a specific purpose, is limited to what the program needs for fulfilling this purpose -> the program is thus bound to this purpose.
Sati, however, has a highly creative mother who hasn't created her for (and thus limited her to...) a specific purpose; rather she has most likely allowed her creativity full bent in programming her daughter, thus giving her big potential to play an important role in the big striving.

intell wrote:

So was there a NEED for him before he appeared or at the same time? In other words, would the system have made him if there was not a need for another agent.

Smith: There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose because as we both know, without purpose we would not exist.

intell wrote:

what importance does his creator attach to life itself - all life?

Second Ren.: Thus did man become the architect of his own demise -> karma

Remember: I don't understand programs as living entities, but rather as aspects of them.

I am running out of time, so I need to rush a bit:

intell wrote:

What? When he destroyed the Smith? Or their encounter in the park, when he reversed the "taking over" process before?

Both, because...

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Why Neo alone?... If Neo and Smith are two separate identities, why not chose any other human infected by Smith and destroy him that way? You notice that Neo is so far the only person who has shown ability to reverse the 'taking over' process once it has started. Neo's powers alone are sufficient to answer that question.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: Neo did. Smith went rogue way before Neo showed up.

Morpheus: You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life.
Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix.
Oracle: He is you. Your opposite, your negative, the result of the equation trying to balance itself out.

intell wrote:

I guess you think that Neo just fudged up the programming and it caused a glitch that he had to pay for with his life.

Oh, come on...

Vanexel711 wrote:

I'd expect nothing less from the both of you. Enjoying the thread greatly.

As you know,... its always a pleasure!

Quote:

It is my believe that we should not understand every single machine and program as an individual with full wholeness/free will-potential. Rather, I believe, every machine and program is an aspect of the wholeness machine world, mirroring attributes like rational, intuition etc., which mankind has developed to master (or not) whatever we believe to be the purpose of our lives. If you understand the machine world as the spirit of man, this makes a lot of sense: the machine world as a whole is an expression of the spirit reality - and it's effects on our lives - of one man,... of every man. And even a real world approach can understand programs as attributes mirroring those of mankind rather than self-contained living entities.

And your viewpoint is deeply shared by Ken Wilber, as I'm sure by now you know. And as he said, it is one that is highly defendable, which you have tested very well in. A real world interpretation would understand programs and all other characters as both human attributes or ideologies AND living entities, as far as those entities are representative of types of personalities that manifest certain attributes and ideologies in society. I hope you understand what I just wrote.

Quote:

As pointed out above, it is my understanding that you shouldn't equate a program with a human, but rather with a human attribute. Thus,.... if you equate the Oracle with human intuition, you'll see that - with Neo - she/intuition eventually blossoms to the full.

But the programs are sentient and have their own will/volition and can (and do in the films) act outside of there original purpose. It has been my contention that this is part of the message of trying to reconcile purpose with free will. I will say more about this later.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: Then there is the something else to consider. What if there is a higher will acting as well that can take players and non-players of the game and still accomplish a higher Purpose (capital P)? So that Zion, Smith, Architect, even Merv all "help" towards a certain result. - -> harmony and freedom for all. Not too far from my interpretation that Zion is the body, and programs and machines aspects of the wholeness machine world. Some of these aspects, like the Oracle, help directly, others - expressions of alienation, like Smith - help indirectly, by being overcome.

I think we are reaching the point where the different perspective begin to merge into the big picture.

But there are some details that need to be clarified before I can say for sure.

How do you understand Smith being Neo in the context of what the "equation" in Oracle's comment is? What is the equation? Isn't it the same as the one mentioned by Archie?

*passes the mic again*