»Smith«

From the "what is love"-thread (matrix-explained.com...):

tozy wrote:

CaptPostMod wrote: What do you see as the difference? (-1) + (+1) = 0. That "+" is a connection. Isn't it? I take the Oracle's “He is you. Your opposite, your negative…” literally (and, intell,.... think about why Bane is in a coma, when Neo is...), in that I believe that Neo and Smith are two opposing forces within the same identity: Neo is the force striving for the true nature -> selflessness -> The ONE; Smith (the former agent of the Matrix -> Maya -> the world of the self) is the force striving for fulfilment in the ego -> selfishness -> me, me, me. As long as Neo fights his ego, he acknowledges his ego and thus gives existence to it -> the (+1) and the (-1) exist as separate forces within one identity. But when he stops fighting Smith, he stops thinking -> his ego looses its existence and is dissolved by ONE-realisation (-> the light) entering, and taking over, Neo's consciousness. Thus, the (+1) + (-1) is not a connection made, but understanding reached (-> know thyself), and the "0" is the result of this true understanding of "thyself" -> nothing -> enlightenment.

intell wrote:

If you consider exactly why Smith was in that hallway then you're almost there

intell wrote:

Quote: I take the Oracle's “He is you. Your opposite, your negative…” literally (and, intell,.... think about why Bane is in a coma, when Neo is...), I take it as metaphorically speaking. Of course Smith is not Neo in a literal sense. So in what sense is her comment to be understood? You could look at all the times the question, "what do(es) you/he want(s)" is posed and the answers given it. Smith has obviously been around for at least a cycle. He dislikes the cycle and wants it to end. Neo is here for this cycle and wants it to end. All the actions of both parties are working toward that same goal. The difference? Well..you know what that is.

I think this is worth some more discussion.

intell, how do you understand "I want exactly what you want. I want everything."?
And how do you understand Smith's obsession with Neo?
And how do you understand both in regard to Revolutions' end?

Originally Smith was after Morpheus.

But Neo broke Morpheus out. He beat Smith in the subway station. Then he comes back to life and explodes Smith.

Neo is a really annoying guy. You just have to HATE a guy like that. It's ONE of those guy things.

psikey

I really don't have much to add here, but I do have some lines of dialogue I wish to share from various sources. When I have a matrix-problem, I usually scan over quotes and passages I've found for specific subjects. After reading the "What is Love" thread (note: AMAZING JOB to all involved with that thread), I see some correlations to Smith's purpose and the machine's limits pre-Neo. For some reason I feel the two are connected. Don't know why, at present. Call it an intuitive feeling .

Anyway, sometimes just seeing passages helps the brain work, so hopefully these will be of some help to all involved in this thread.

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You are what you love, not what loves you. -CaptPostMod

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I love my daughter very much...I find her to be the most beautiful thing I have ever seen...but where we are from that is not enough. Every program that is created must have a purpose. If it does not, it is deleted. You do not understand.... - Rama Kandra

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Growing Programmatically: This is how we get to what is probably the most central facet of Smith's character. The capability for growth that Neo instilled in Smith -- or wait, this is mysterious; Neo obviously did not resurrect Smith, so who did? It's positively religious to contemplate it -- is probably the factor that throws Smith into a bout of confusion. - Brian Takle

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Neo pilots the Logos to the machine city. And Logos means word. And so what he's doing is he's bringing the word to the machine city. And the fact that Rama Kandra very deilberately says that Karma and Love are words, then maybe these are the things that Neo is bringing to the machine city. Maybe he's bringing to them love so that they can be fully human (whatever that may mean) and he's also bringing to them the notion of karma or duty, which would bring with it an understanding of the interconnectedness and relationship among all things both machine and human. - Dr. Rachel Wagner, Return To Source

Okay, okay, if it must be a stand alone thread...
I said some more in the Love thread about this too.

"They apparently underestimated how important you are. If they knew what I know, you would be dead."

Smith comes to understand that his goal would be accomplished by focusing on Neo (as the One) rather than Zion access codes. Neo destroying Smith had an effect on him as well.

Both of them have fought before and the importance of the fight changed each time. What started out as a computer crime suspect giving a rogue agent the finger ended up being the decisive battle of the era. Circumstances, manipulated and providential brought both of them to this point.

"He is you..."
Smith tried to change the system from the inside. Neo tried to change the system by resisting it.

Neo represents those who are tired of being on the losing side. Smith is one of those who are tired of playing, period.

--From a real world perspective, of course

The Oracle

“He is you. Your opposite, your negative …”

When it comes to this quote I would have to agree with Intel. I would not take it as literal. But I would say that Smith is the opposite of everything that Neo represents. Neo is led by purpose and love and Smith mocks it. Smith is selfish and wants to become a god and Neo on the otherhand is willing to give his life to save humanity and displays sacrificial love.

It also might be helpful to back up a bit and take a look at the Animatrix for more deeper insight into all of this. In the Animatrix (Renaissance Part 1 & 2) it is implied that both the machines and mankind ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (a picture of an apple is shown). Both sinned.

We even see that man creates the machine in his own image. We see man wanting to be God and rule over the machines. And just as fellowship and peace with God was broken when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge so the fellowship and peace was lost with the machines when both man and machine ate of the same tree.

Since man (Adam and Eve) ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil described in Genesis he has tried to become like a God as a result of having been infected and poisoned with sin. (It is after the Fall that man becomes sinful and the image of God is marred. It is as if the mirror or image we were to become and reflect is damaged. Only by reconnecting with our purpose and Christ can the image be restored.) It is clear that the Wachowski's are making a direct reference to this Genesis story.

Thus, I think it can be stated that man ate of the tree (as the Animatrix implies) and then tried to be like God and created the machines in the image of himself. The result was that he became the "architect of his own demise." All of this a result of the Fall. We see a domino effect going on all the way until we come to Agent Smith; who also wants to become God.

Relating with Both

It should be added that I think we can all identify with Smith and Neo in some way (this may be what Tozy is referring to).

Richard Neibuhr writes in Man, State and War: "Man is a finite being with infinite aspirations, a pigmy who thinks himself a giant. Out of his self-interest, he develops economic and political theories and attempts to pass them off as universal systems; he is born and reared in insecurity and seeks to make himself a god. The seat of evil is the self, and the quality of evil can be defined in terms of pride."

Sounds a lot like what Smith has become. But if we are honest we also act out of self-interest at times as well. But we can also choose the other way--love.

Smith is the Archenemy

The Bible tells us that Satan was an angel from heaven who chose to rebel against God. He was the first to betray his ideals for his own selfish notions. It is interesting that he wanted man to take the same path he had chosen. Usually when we sin we also want others to sin as well to make ourselves feel better. Regardless, we find that man chooses to rebel against God as well and thus encounters the painful consequences of his actions--separation from God.

Smith, like Satan, is after the same thing--to distort the truth of God's plan and create an illusion so as to seat himself in the highest place as a god.

In Matrix Reloaded we see that Agent Smith, after having been defeated by Neo, chooses to not return to the Source. Instead he chooses to replicate himself and make everyone conform to his image. This is what Satan is trying to do as well. Smith is, like Satan, totally consumed with himself and doing what he wants. He will go to all lengths to get power and to become a god.

Only one person stands in his way-- Neo. Just like Christ is the only person who could defeat the Devil and win back mankind, Neo is the only person who can defeat Smith.

Neo is able to trick Smith in their final battle. Smith believes he is about to win the war and defeat his archenemy. He has seen how things unfold through the Oracle but missed one thing-–understanding the significance of the future events. As he begins to imprint himself over Neo after their arduous battle, he realizes that he has been fooled. Neo drew him in like a fish on a hook. Neo was the bait. Smith proved no match for Neo’s powers and was defeated.

Jesus, who was with God from the beginning, entered into our world and took a body like ours so that he could free us from the powers of sin and death. Because he is the Son of God he is fully divine and because he is a man he is fully human. This reality allows him to perform the ultimate sacrifice of freeing mankind from the corruption of death and the consequences of sin. Because Jesus takes on a human body, which is capable of death, he can die for us all and pay the penalty for all of our sins. Because he is fully divine he has the ability to conquer death through the resurrection, breaking the curse of sin upon us.

Satan was not aware of this and thought that by achieving the death of Jesus on a cross he would win the world to himself. What a rude awakening it was for him when Jesus appeared in his full glory and triumphantly achieved the ultimate victory. Much like Smith must have felt when Neo won their ardous battle.

Here is a cool quote to chew on as well.

“The purpose of the Incarnation … was that the divine virtue of the Son of God might be as it were a hook hidden beneath the form of human flesh … to lure on the prince of this age to a contest; that the Son might offer him his flesh asa bait and that then the divinity which lay beneath might catch him and hold him fast with its hook … Then, as a fish when it seizes a baited hook not only fails to drag off the bait but is itself dragged out of the water to serve as food for others; so he that had the power of death seized the body of Jesus in death, unaware of the hook of divinity concealed therein. Having swallowed it, he was caught straightway; the bars of hell were burst, and he was, as it were, drawn from the pit, to become food for others…” – Rufinus of Aquileia, c.400, Comm. Symb. Apost. 14 sqq.18

intell wrote:

We all know why Neo was in that hallway. We also know that he is not the first "messiah" to show up there. Smith knows about the time limit and how much time Zion has left. (Even if he only knows approximately how much.) If he can keep Neo detained, Zion falls and "there's no need for me to be here."

I don't agree that smith knew about Zion falling, as the agents seem to be going after the wrong people. In reloaded agent johnson is going after the keymaker saying words to the effect of 'the exile is the one we want'. this would seem to contradict the machine plans for neo to return to the source and kick-start a new cycle. so i've always felt that only exile programs [merv / trainman etc] and high-level programs [oracle / arctitect etc ] know exactly what is going on. the other porgrams think like the humans ie: 'this is the only matrix that has ever existed'.

if smith knew zion would fall like it did, then why was he so desperate to get the access codes from morpheus?

smith only changed after his 'interaction' with neo, as he started spreading his knowledge and understanding expanded.

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I don't agree that smith knew about Zion falling, as the agents seem to be going after the wrong people. In reloaded agent johnson is going after the keymaker saying words to the effect of 'the exile is the one we want'. this would seem to contradict the machine plans for neo to return to the source and kick-start a new cycle. so i've always felt that only exile programs [merv / trainman etc] and high-level programs [oracle / arctitect etc ] know exactly what is going on. the other porgrams think like the humans ie: 'this is the only matrix that has ever existed'.

Look at your last paragraph and you say what I was going to say back to you. Smith is not an agent anymore at this point. The agents are following their programming. Smith is not. Proof that Smith is not thinking: 'this is the only matrix that has ever existed.':

"It's happening exactly as before."
"Well, not exactly."

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if smith knew zion would fall like it did, then why was he so desperate to get the access codes from morpheus?

Because it would fall like it (did?) was going to. With the prospect of being rebuilt and repopulated. Smith is tired of the cycle. Getting the access codes was going to end it once and for all. Notice that Brown and Jones were out of the room when he went after these codes.

intell wrote:

Getting the access codes was going to end it once and for all. Notice that Brown and Jones were out of the room when he went after these codes.

The access codes are a McGuffin for the agents. Something for them to use to fish out the One. If Morpheus and the Neb gang had never been put in danger, then would Neo have ever become the One? The access codes program was just that, a programmed game used as a chrysalis to bring this cycle's One to fruition.

As for any machine needing the access codes- who do you think built the machines that run Zion and created the access codes to Zion to begin with? The Zionists (who were just 23 men and women from the Matrix when this current Zion was rebuilt) or the machines?

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The access codes are a McGuffin for the agents. Something for them to use to fish out the One. If Morpheus and the Neb gang had never been put in danger, then would Neo have ever become the One? The access codes program was just that, a programmed game used as a chrysalis to bring this cycle's One to fruition.

No. It was a real danger...to them and those in Zion.

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As for any machine needing the access codes- who do you think built the machines that run Zion and created the access codes to Zion to begin with?

Um let me guess..the last set of 23 to begin this cycle. Further, if you can say that even though someone at Dell built the computer I'm typing from, it doesn't mean anyone over there can log into this site as Intell does it?

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The Zionists (who were just 23 men and women from the Matrix when this current Zion was rebuilt) or the machines?

And they all used the same manual? No changes made?

intell wrote:

Um let me guess..the last set of 23 to begin this cycle. Further, if you can say that even though someone at Dell built the computer I'm typing from, it doesn't mean anyone over there can log into this site as Intell does it?

23 people built an entire underground city? Sure . And the people at Dell don't care about logging onto this site. But if you think that the machines drill their way all the way into Zion, then just nicely leave afterwards and don't give themselves a back door into the mainframe. Well, you're far too trusting of the machines.

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23 people built an entire underground city? Sure .

Last time I checked, it looked like a heckuvalot more than that. So it didn't occur to you that 23 is just who "The One" is allowed/required to pick to start an ongoing work?

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the machines drill their way all the way into Zion, then just nicely leave afterwards and don't give themselves a back door into the mainframe.

So they have a backdoor open and they insisted on drilling? They must have Dubya as commander-in-chief.

intell wrote:

So they have a backdoor open and they insisted on drilling? They must have Dubya as commander-in-chief.

Actually, you're not far off. There's a myth that the Skull and Bones (who Dubya is a member of) have the word "War" written in their ceremony room. They believe it is necessary to keep a war going in order to shift powers as they need them shifted.

The drilling to Zion is just another McGuffin. The machines need the cycle to repeat itself. Zion is destroyed, Zion is rebuilt. Part of the system. But it would make sense that they always have a God code in case they need it. Why wouldn't they? They're so exacting, doesn't seem like the thinking of a machine to not make such an easy preparation.

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There's a myth that the Skull and Bones (who Dubya is a member of) have the word "War" written in their ceremony room. They believe it is necessary to keep a war going in order to shift powers as they need them shifted.

And you said you shy away from conspiracies

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machines need the cycle to repeat itself. Zion is destroyed, Zion is rebuilt. Part of the system. But it would make sense that they always have a God code in case they need it.

True. But that's just it, they don't need it. There effecient at it, remember?

Smith is a horse of another colour. He dislikes the cycle. So he changes things this time around.

smith was after morpheus for one reason and that is for the access codes to zion so he could free himself from the prison he was trapped in. or so i thought.

Neo isn't merely Neo or the One, he's Thomas Anderson.
Agent Smith is just some corrupt agent.

But, if you say, they're the culmination of all things good/evil. If you look at these people and say, "This guy is so good at hacking, he can fit the role of the One. Or, this guy is so corrupt that he fits the role of the anti-One" Man, we have a game now!

Get the picture?

It depends on the perspective you view it from. But, uh oh! your perspective is what the gamemaster(s) has you viewing it from. There's no esc from the matrix. Or is there?

i dont agree

With what?

the post of urs above the one i last posted, i dont think what ur saying sits well with my veiws thats all, not that ur wrong.

You mean about Neo and Agent Smith?

oh shit im lossing my mind. not u bro so sry im supposed to be on another post board. lol...thats not funny its sad i know.

No prob. mate.

What do you think about the Smith and Neo's connection?

Smith is the part of Neo's (read: humanity's) mind which he tries to supress.

If Neo would have chosen a reload then he would truly have supressed it for another 100 years or so.

But Neo faced his dark side, which rarely truly happens in a human mind. The result was a big change.

well the connection Neo and Smith share to me is purely cybernetic. they'r connection is of technology not of organic nature like some would believe. as it was so adaquetly(sp?) put "it is purpose"

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Smith is the part of Neo's (read: humanity's) mind which he tries to supress. If Neo would have chosen a reload then he would truly have supressed it for another 100 years or so. But Neo faced his dark side, which rarely truly happens in a human mind. The result was a big change.

Neo and Smith are two separate beings with their own choices and aspirations. If you are using as support the Oracle's words about "he is you" then I think you've really missed the boat. Maybe we are misinterpreting her words and what is actually going on in Revolutions entirely.