»'MWAM Threory' Is Rubbish«

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Yeah, along with text-based points as to why MWAM is entirely invalid along with the subtextual implications (i.e. they are detroyed) are all spot-on.

Thx.

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i have no idea what that is.

He's talking about my post that I (finally) linked to. I could have some fun with PiukNeo as well but I like reading the points raised more.

intell wrote:

He's talking about my post that I (finally) linked to. I could have some fun with PiukNeo as well but I like reading the points raised more.

Mm...it's more 'frustrating' than 'fun' for me, but hey.

Google my name as 'MAX' or 'max314' along with 'matrix' and you might see some of my past battles on the internet.

o i c.

Oh, I just stumbled across this...

---->

Script Excerpt From THE MATRIX RELOADED

NEO
Something's different...

TRINITY
What?

The Sentinels bank with shark speed and ease, zeroing in on them.

TRINITY (CONT'D)
What are you doing?

NEO
I can... feel them.

They are almost on top of him, rising up to strike when--

He lifts his hand as one might reach out to feel the heat of a fire and suddenly, an electronic seizure shivers through each of them.

One by one, struck by some invisible lightning, an individual E.M.P.--

That sends them crashing to the ground and as the last one falls--

So does Neo. Like a puppet cut from its strings, he collapses to the wet ground.

---->

Case closed, I guess.

...what is it supposed to symbolize, im lost.

Quess not quite closed.

You always say to me that while the normal theory of the movie, or to say, to view it as it is shown (one matrix), it has more proff (OBVIOUSLY) than mine (MwM); but, I have a question first (two or three, but will only post one first, then we start it off):

Do you know how the whole Oracle prediction stuff really works in the movies? How a progam like her can "predict" almost every future events in the matrix?

I apologize to the many many many many people who believe the MwM theory, but max314's posts are simply very very logical. They make sense, because the films make sense.(nice posts max314 )

I have noticed this in other forums. There are many people who EXPECTED a certain kind of ending and explanations. Maybe this was a flaw of the films. They were so good , that they over-increased expectations for some people. So, naturally, these people were dissappointed afterwards.

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Do you know how the whole Oracle prediction stuff really works in the movies? How a progam like her can "predict" almost every future events in the matrix?

I think i saw the answer somewhere around here.The Oracle is a programm quite close to how the Matrix works, as this is the entity that helped modified it. So , to a certain extent, she knows how things work.(some of the other guys will correct me if i'm wrong).

The Therion wrote:

I apologize to the many many many many people who believe the MwM theory, but max314's posts are simply very very logical. They make sense, because the films make sense.(nice posts max314 ) I have noticed this in other forums. There are many people who EXPECTED a certain kind of ending and explanations. Maybe this was a flaw of the films. They were so good , that they over-increased expectations for some people. So, naturally, these people were dissappointed afterwards. Quote: Do you know how the whole Oracle prediction stuff really works in the movies? How a progam like her can "predict" almost every future events in the matrix? I think i saw the answer somewhere around here.The Oracle is a programm quite close to how the Matrix works, as this is the entity that helped modified it. So , to a certain extent, she knows how things work.(some of the other guys will correct me if i'm wrong).

Yes, you're quite right. By the way I thanx you on behalf of Max314.
You are missing something else which is integral to how it is done(the prediction). And yes, I did know, I just wanted max314 to answer it. Thanx anyways.

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I have noticed this in other forums. There are many people who EXPECTED a certain kind of ending and explanations. Maybe this was a flaw of the films. They were so good , that they over-increased expectations for some people. So, naturally, these people were dissappointed afterwards.

Sometimes I wonder about whether it is the way Reloaded presented the material or the timing of the release of Revolutions. Revolutions came out just shy of 6 months, which may not have allowed some in the audience to "digest" Reloaded, which lead to some erroneous conclusions like this one (MWaM). Then again, how much time do you give to digest the Architect's speech, which many, many, many are still trying to figure out?

People like Max and myself can continue to try to reason until the speculation goes away but in the meantime, some will start with the basis that there is a MWaM and try to fit events of the film around that conclusion rather than reasoning on how one can arrive at it. Which brings us to...

The Oracle...

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The Oracle is a programm quite close to how the Matrix works, as this is the entity that helped modified it. So , to a certain extent, she knows how things work.(some of the other guys will correct me if i'm wrong).

Exactly. "...an intuitive program, initially designed to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche." (Arc)

She can predict what a person's choice will be (for the most part) and what other peoples' choices will be in response to certain events and what events are likely to be caused by certain choices. Etc.

Of course when you believe in MWaM, it becomes the answer to almost every question you could raise, doesn't it?

But there are some questions that it cannot touch.

intell wrote:

Exactly. "...an intuitive program, initially designed to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche." (Arc) She can predict what a person's choice will be (for the most part) and what other peoples' choices will be in response to certain events and what events are likely to be caused by certain choices. Etc.

Ok, I see Max314 is not around here, and that almost everyone has tried to answer my retoric question, hahaha, not leavibng it to max, well, anyhow:

Yes, she can, but are those choices of those connected to the matrix? Or she could predict anything from anyone?

intell wrote:

Of course when you believe in MWaM, it becomes the answer to almost every question you could raise, doesn't it? But there are some questions that it cannot touch.

Yes it does, but that's not the main point of bealiving it. And such questions would be?

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Yes, she can, but are those choices of those connected to the matrix? Or she could predict anything from anyone?

"the human psyche..."

Who do you take that to include?

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Yes it does, but that's not the main point of bealiving it. And such questions would be?

Let's look at it this way, you claim it does answer them and then you ask what the questions are. Does it make a difference to you what MWaM doesn't cover?

And if that's not the main point of believing it, again - Does it make a difference to you what MWaM doesn't cover?

Let Max answer in his own due time. As for me, some questions are:

What is the point of having a war, a sacrifice, and a truce if no one has escaped the matrix?

And on what basis do you conclude that there are machines controlling the yet unrevealed 'real world'? Heck, while you're at it, what is the nature of this real world anyway?

And of course there's that minor little problem of why such an integral plot development is NOTICEABLY ABSENT from the films and commentaries. You know little nagging questions like these.

that therory is one i must disagree with.

intell wrote:

What is the point of having a war, a sacrifice, and a truce if no one has escaped the matrix?

Simple, DECEPTION, that's one of the main ideas behind the matrix movies; ILLUSION.
Pd: if you havn't read my big part of the theory on this thread, go ahead, it says explicitly why it is better fro the machines to make the real world another matrix, and to why the whole war, peace thing might fit in without making it pointless.

intell wrote:

And on what basis do you conclude that there are machines controlling the yet unrevealed 'real world'? Heck, while you're at it, what is the nature of this real world anyway?

Even more simple, DECEPTION agian.

intell wrote:

And of course there's that minor little problem of why such an integral plot development is NOTICEABLY ABSENT from the films and commentaries. You know little nagging questions like these.

Well, if you were the brothers, and wanted to give away the fact that there is a MwM, would'v you done it right away?

And there are implications of it, it just dependes on how you see the movie. of course my example here to you will not be of your aprobal:

Kid: Neo! Just in time. You're gonna see the Oracle, aren't you?
Morpheus: We don't have time.
Kid: I'm sorry, sir, I just have to give something to Neo. A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand.
Neo: Thanks.

I don't belive I'm the only one who took that also as : "There is no spoon" (a.k.a "this world might not be real Neo").

So yes, there are pleanty of facts that remind us that the real world might not be real at all.

man u guys r serious about solving the secret of the matrix...or just getting to the truth behind it at least.

Yes, absolutely, till the end.

Now I'm just gona wait for Intell to answer.

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I don't belive I'm the only one who took that also as : "There is no spoon" (a.k.a "this world might not be real Neo"). So yes, there are pleanty of facts that remind us that the real world might not be real at all.

Another way to take the spoon scene is the rest of the quote. "It is not the spoon that bends, only yourself." In other words, change your perception of the way things are supposed to turn out.

I believe my interpretation (which is far from completely stated about this) is more in context of why the original remarks about the spoon was given to Neo. It wasn't to remind Neo about the illusory nature of the matrix. Neo already knew/heard/was shown it was a computer program. It was to show what changing perspectives can accomplish (the fact that it was done by someone not even unplugged yet.) So to the second time spoons come up.

If the "real world" is not real after all. When did Neo or anyone else reach that conclusion. If they didn't, then might all these facts and clues you speak of might also be misinterpreted and may in fact be trying to point you to something else?

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Simple, DECEPTION, that's one of the main ideas behind the matrix movies; ILLUSION.

If you're going to use this as a cover-all explanation, then all the events in the last two, heck all three movies, were just for no reason. And you're comfortable with that explanation? Or do you think that there might be more significance to the actions taken and the climax made in Revolutions?

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Now I'm just gona wait for Intell to answer.

Haha. I'm just waiting till Max gets back so I can pass him the mic.

intell wrote:

Revolutions came out just shy of 6 months, which may not have allowed some in the audience to "digest" Reloaded, which lead to some erroneous conclusions like this one (MWaM).

I think there is some definite truth to this. Also, I think that a lot of the disappointment in Revolutions was due to many fans really wanting a MWaM.

When I saw the first film, I was transfixed for those first 40 minutes. And when Neo pops out of his pod and sees all those pods, all I could say was "Holy shnikes!"

But then it happened... Morpheus comes in dressed in rags and explains that Neo really lives in a 2099 "Terminator-verse" instead of a 1999 "Anime-verse"... For five/ten minutes of film around that moment I was bored to tears. You mean that's it? The real world is just a machine run Skynet-esque distopia. Thanks, I've already seen Terminator 1 & 2 ten thousand times, maybe this isn't so kewl. Then we get back in the dojo and there's so much amazing Kung Fu with a lot of fun free your mind philosophy and I totally forgot about all that Zion junk which was never really focused on again in M1.

Then Reloaded featured more of Zion. A lot of which came off as hokey sci-fi. That whole ship docking sequence just about bores a person to death. The sets and dialogue in Zion are fairly un-remarkable (except that scene with Hammon). Morpheus' speach (which you'll notice is hardly ever quoted in this forum) is a centerpiece that takes whole minutes of film and amounts to little more than hot air.

So why MWaM? Because it was nice to reach the end of Reloaded and think "Oh, all that Zion crap was just another illusion, even hokier than the Matrix itself." Zion being such a stupid worn down sci-fi cliche was the point exactly, if it was another simulated illusion.

Then Revolutions comes. And Zion is a huge part of the film. We see the machine attacking sequence, which is done bigger than ever but is totally old hat. Commander Lock and Mifune are complete jokes with their non-stop spouting of "God damn it." The whole Zion world is just as hokey as ever, and it threatens to overwhelm the philosophical world of the Matrix. I think this is why Revolutions was so polarized as well. It's like those old illusion pictures which are drawn in such a way that some people see a young woman facing left and others see an old woman facing right. Some people see Revolutions and their focus draws to the crappy Zion "sci-fi Die Hard in the future" movie. Others of us see it and focus on the Mulholland Drive meets philosophy 401 movie.

So, to make a long story short... I can see the appeal in MWaM because I can see the aversion to the Zion story line. (Though I think MWaM is ultimately not the "correct" theory).

Good post, Capt.

i concure, good post man!

Ok, I started asking questions of the oracle, so I shall conitnue with them.

Right here I'm trying to get to my point by asking questions ehich I already know the answer of (they might be wrong, who knows that), but nevertheless, here they go:

I asked before how the prediction system worked right? Then some people answered, correctly. It is primarly by the two things that people sayed here in this thread: 1) The oracle initialy stuied the human phyque(spell?) , thus she know the problem of choice and how it deals with humans. 2) She is part of the main system(the matrix) she is the mother of the matrix, and she knows many many things of its functioning.

So, the next question was; Does the prediction work for connected humans to the matrix, or all? The answer was given. Again, there is a next question directly linked to it:

If the Oracle studies the human phyque(spell?), then how can she predict events related to Smith (a rouge program)? We see this perfectly in M3, when she knew that Smith would come to her apartment, to assimilate her, she was there "deliberatly, purposefully" waiting, cuz "she knows everything, how can she be surprised"?

neo and smith r connected.

{Morpheus} wrote:

neo and smith r connected.

So? It does not let her know which choices smith will make, as hard as it can be do understand this, programs have free will to, they choose (in the movies of course). She can not know a programs future choices, they do not have a mind.

that is what makes them predictable. they dont have a mind....which means that the choice they make is based on their programing. so i believe.

{Morpheus} wrote:

that is what makes them predictable. they dont have a mind....which means that the choice they make is based on their programing. so i believe.

Nice! Look, for the moment I really going to seem an ass, I'm gonna have to ask stupid questions,and all to get to my point.

I'm not denying also the capability the Oracle has to predict Smith, cuz as max314 says, "it is in the movies", so more clearly it han not be. I did know how she does that, yes, you hit it, it is in their programing, they are easier to predict.

BUT, and this really important, it is not just that which makes the prediction plausible, but rather this: They are inside the matrix, a computer program simulation, which is a trafic of information all over the network, but only some have access to it (Merv, Oracle, Arch). So in other words, that is how the merv knows so much, he works in that, it is his buisness to know, he gets the info right from his programing, so is the Oracle and the Arch (the parents of the matrix), they are watching every step of everything inside it, so they know every posible variable, every single posible event, calculated by really complex mathematics I suppose, algorithms, integrals (even there could be new maths the machines have descovered to calculate better thing).

But, you and me might be wrong, cuz Smith is no longer a program of the system, he's a VIRUS so, he's got no programing, he's free inside the matrix, corrupting everthing, nevertheless, let's leave it there, cuz I agree that the Oracle can predict him just by the fact that he is inside the matrix, and thus under some sort of control. Now, when neo goes to the machine city, he tells the machines that they can not stop him, that he would spread to the machine city, just as he did through the matrix, therefore if that happened, they would not hav him under some sort of control inside the matrix.
But that's another topic of discussion.

The thing is I agree on that the Oracle can predict Smith inside the matrix.

hmm....