»'MWAM Threory' Is Rubbish«

Not bad at all. You raise good points, and yeah, it's a lot of reading lol, so I won't go dissecting it just now. A theory well-put-together, you met my challenge (as if my challenge is that of Deux Ex Machina or something...).

I remain a devotee to the one-and-only-one theory for now, who knows, that could change with time. It all still clicks and makes more sense to me that way.

nice very nice. even things i haven't heard before.

{Morpheus} wrote:

nice very nice. even things i haven't heard before.

Well thanx, I really apreciate all that. I've been far away from this forum this last year, and now that I'm on track again, I left behind the MwM theory for too long, so I havn't been posting on that discutions for a time now.
If any one wants to dicuss about it, I'm glad to go into it in depth, I would like to share many thoughts about this theory which I support from the real beginning of the trilogy(well, really from the momento M1 was already on dvd and M2 not yet on theaters).

i like ur reasonig but i just cant seem to wrap myself around the thought of there being a MwM. i just dont c it happening. very strong stand point u have though i must admit it'll be hard to argue against it but it can be done.

To PiukNeo:

With all due respect, my friend, I am confused and confounded as to why you and others like yourself feel the need to create explanations.

This site is called 'Matrix-Explained.com'.

What I don't understand is what is not explained that apparently warrants the existence of this site's alleged cause to 'explain' the movies.

Do they have underlying subtext and philosophical themes? Of course they do.

Should they be discussed? Damn right they should.

But when the Brothers declared that their movies were open to interpretation, I don't think that they meant that it's okay to shit on dialogue that's actually been given very explicitly...and then make up your own story.

The primary explanatory piece pertaining to Neo's new-found abilities happens during the expository first act of The Matrix Revolutions.

Observe:

----

Neo: Tell me how I separated my mind from my body without jacking in. Tell me how I stopped four sentinels by thinking it. Tell me just what the hell is happening to me.

Oracle: The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from.

Neo: Where?

Oracle: The Source. That's what you felt when you touched those sentinels, but you weren't ready for it. You should be dead. But, apparently, you weren't ready for that, either.

----

Neo is connected to the Source.

In case there is any disparity, what is "the Source"?

Observe further:

----

Neo: And why would a program be deleted?

Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to the Source.

Neo: The machine mainframe?

Oracle: Yes. Where you must go. Where the path of The One ends. You've seen it, in your dreams, haven't you? The door made of light?

----

The Source is another word for the machine mainframe. The machine world.

This world is virtual like the Matrix, of course. It can be reached through the door of light (i.e. via the Architect's chamber). But where is the big-ass processor. You know, the huge processor where this entire interconnected network runs?

It is the machine city itself. The physical shell in which all these operating systems, programs and virtual worlds exist.

Neo's first dream is of the door of light, yes.

But he doesn't stop seeing the Source. His new vision are of the power lines. Power lines that lead to the machine city. The 'true' Source.

Also, if Neo "should be dead", how come he wasn't "ready" for daeth?

It's because he can't "let go" of Trinity.

----

Neo: I just have never...

Rama-Kandra: ...heard a program speak of love?

Neo: It is a...human emotion.

Rama-Kandra: No, it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies. I see that you are in love. Can you tell me what you would give to hold on to that connection?

Neo: Anything.

Rama-Kandra: Then perhaps the reason you're here is not so different from the reason I'm here.

----

Instead of dying, his love for Trinity caused him to uncover yet another ability asside from stopping squiddies...projecting his consciousness into the Matrix.

Okay, so that's straightened up.

But this still doesn't explain how a human like Neo can do all these things. How can he transcend all these planes of reality?

Is it spiritual?

Is it virtual (i.e. Matrix-within-a-Matrix)?

The answer is, neither.

Neo is a cyborg.

This is a fact. All pod-borns are cyborgs. They are mechanically augmented to receive digital signals straight into their nervous system, and their brains are also augmented to receive and interpret these signals.

Anyone seen a little movie called Ghost In The Shell? You know, one of the main influences on the Wachowskis when making this trilogy? Well, in that movie (and its manga source material) human beings have mechanical augmentations made to their brains that allow them to hook into a wireless network ("the Net").

Kinda like a Blue Tooth facility that can exist on a city-wide/national/global level.

It makes perfect sense that Neo is getting these images of the Source in all its various incarnations due to his wireless connection to the network.

That's how he gets into the Matrix without the need for a head-jack on a ship. It's how he can stop sentinels at a whim in a way that looks like a focussed EMP. It's how he can 'see' the machine world with no physical eyes. And it's how he is able to stop bullets and fly at supersonic speeds within the Matrix program that is derived from the Source itself.

When Neo is standing face-to-face with the Deus Ex Machina and declares that he "won't try and stop [the machines]" if they don't like what he has to say, he ain't kidding. He can make the prophecy come true at that moment. He can destroy the central processor of the Matrix and the machines with one final blast from his body.

But his journey since the first film has evolved his consciousness to making a different decision.

The decsion is "peace".

Phew...I need a drink.

Max, you're being pretty derisive for someone who couldn't figure out that Deckard is a replicant.

Now, that was a solid counter-argument. It makes me happy to "fight" in dialogues, just like Goku likes to fight better opponents? jaja Forget it

Look man, it is as simple as this. I think I'm not the only one here that thinks similar to me, so I don't feel lonely in my thinking. The thing is that for whatever reasons anyone wants to give, and want to state originally from the matrix scripts, IT IS NOT SHOWN IN THE MOVIES. I mean, if you want me to just acept the fact that the Oracle's words were the best explanation for neo's new powers in the real world, I am positive, real positive that an army of people would come at any one who is saying what you are, and tell you(you all) " That explanation is the lamest, weakest, and most incomplete one I had ever expected of the matrix revolutions for all the answers to neo's new powers in the real world".(refering to the Oracle's explanation), Period. Cuz that's the truth man, it lacks of answers many people in this forum expected from the Oracle/Movie, and start to "inform"facts just as the noes that you were just adresing(very good by the way); like the wireless connection (that by the way I can not accept, cuz were in the movies is it clearly said, or even IMPLIED that Neo had a wireless connection besides the Oracle's words of "a connection to the source", "your powers extend form the source, to the real world"? Never) and the cyborgs (this one is very good, but it only gets as far as that WE KNOW ONLY FROM THE MOVIES THAT A CONNECTION TO THE MATRIX CAN BE MADE ONLY WITHOUT WIRELESS CONNECTION, or in others words with a cable).

So, I can't just see it like you man.
On the other hand, the MwM theory,while not mentioned in any part of the trilogy (which is exaclty the point of it, being a surprise and a deception), it has many implies and references to it throught the trilogy, making it really posible, and also a answer to all of the questions that were left unaswered by the movie/Oracle.

i could have sworn it said some where that this site was open to any and all matrix opinios. or did i read wrong?

{Morpheus} wrote:

i could have sworn it said some where that this site was open to any and all matrix opinios. or did i read wrong?

Maybe you forgot to put on your glasses kiding. Nop, you read well.

ha! ur funny bro. but answer me this what exactly did happen to neo at the end of revolutuons?

{Morpheus} wrote:

ha! ur funny bro. but answer me this what exactly did happen to neo at the end of revolutuons?

In my opinion? And when he asimilated Smith, or when?

Well, as I posted before, I have a theory of my own regarding The One's importance to the matrix functioning (my post):

I got another theory referring to Neo's importance in the matrix:

"I believe that when the Architect stated that he was frustrated by failure when trying to make a stable matrix, he said that maybe he needed a "lesser mind". This makes me think that maybe he NEEDS to use Neo's mind. Let me explain myself; He inserts the PRIME PROGRAM OR CODE of the matrix in him, he uses his mind and the code to "reflect" the reality of the matrix to all the other minds inside the system, thus this way a imperfect mind reflects like a mirror the reality and he serves as a "FILTER" for everyone's perception of the illusion world. If this were to be true, then Neo is UNDOUBTLY NEEDED to RELOAD and "REFLECT" the matrix in an "imperfect"(or less perfect mind) way, thus making it possible for a computer generated world to be stable and going on. "

So, in others words, I believe that Neo (and every One) is kept in the machine world (in the machine mainframe) to make the matrix function in a "unperfect" way, a way the Architect is not able to understand and perform, thus he needs the One (and his prime code). If not, why else do you all think after the end of the trilogy (in The matrix Online) the machines are refusing on returning Neo's remians, the One's remains? I also think he might not be dead too, as they might need him for the whole matrix to function.
Just some thoughts.

{Morpheus} wrote:

ha! ur funny bro. but answer me this what exactly did happen to neo at the end of revolutuons?

I'll answer PuikNeo tomorrow (time is running short this evening), but in answer to this question, Neo quite simply connected Smith to the Source allowing the Deus Ex to delete him using Neo's body as a sacrificial conduit.

Morpheus is right. This site is basically set up for whatever whoever want to discuss, and however they please. Furthermore, there are obvious times when explanation requires creation based on non-hard data. It's called theory.

Theorize away, I say I say.

a sacraficial conduit, well those were my thoughts but what of Neo's mind?

CaptPostMod wrote:

Max, you're being pretty derisive for someone who couldn't figure out that Deckard is a replicant.

PiukNeo wrote:

Now, that was a solid counter-argument. It makes me happy to "fight" in dialogues, just like Goku likes to fight better opponents? jaja Forget it Razz

Um...okay?

PiukNeo wrote:

Look man, it is as simple as this. I think I'm not the only one here that thinks similar to me, so I don't feel lonely in my thinking.

Well, I don't personally look for validation of my views. If I did, I'd probably be on the 'Revolutions sucked' camp.

Still, I respect your right to believe what you want.

PiunNeo wrote:

The thing is that for whatever reasons anyone wants to give, and want to state originally from the matrix scripts, IT IS NOT SHOWN IN THE MOVIES.

You know, not everything has to be explained in black and white. There are plenty of visual cues that support my argument, and - let's be honest - there is a lot less conjecture in what I am saying than in what you are. At least that's what I think.

PiukNeo wrote:

I mean, if you want me to just acept the fact that the Oracle's words were the best explanation for neo's new powers in the real world, I am positive, real positive that an army of people would come at any one who is saying what you are, and tell you(you all) " That explanation is the lamest, weakest, and most incomplete one I had ever expected of the matrix revolutions for all the answers to neo's new powers in the real world".(refering to the Oracle's explanation), Period. Cuz that's the truth man, it lacks of answers many people in this forum expected from the Oracle/Movie, and start to "inform"facts just as the noes that you were just adresing(very good by the way); like the wireless connection (that by the way I can not accept, cuz were in the movies is it clearly said, or even IMPLIED that Neo had a wireless connection besides the Oracle's words of "a connection to the source", "your powers extend form the source, to the real world"? Never) and the cyborgs (this one is very good, but it only gets as far as that WE KNOW ONLY FROM THE MOVIES THAT A CONNECTION TO THE MATRIX CAN BE MADE ONLY WITHOUT WIRELESS CONNECTION, or in others words with a cable).

Okay, let's break your arguments down:

1. - "The explanation given by the Oracle is not satisfactory to me, therefore it can't be the explanation."

This is how I interpreted one of your sentiments.

Assuming that this claim is correct, then I must say that this is an argument based on nothing but an assertion. "It's not the explanation because...because...it just can't be!"

I'm afriad that that's not an argument.

Personally, I think that the Oracle says a lot with very little. She doesn't sit there with a block of text like the Architect. She is his opposite. She explains things in a very informal, colloquial-yet-wise manner.

That's her style, and each program we encounter has a unique and distinctive style of speech that relects their character and their programming.

So, the Oracle explains it sufficiently, and we can use the rest of the events in the trilogy to back this up without having to have the Oracle sit down with a block of facts.

2. - "Neo can't have a wireless connection! There's no proof! There's nothing to suggest that!"

Nothing except the Oracle's explanation.

You see, the same day I was planning to see Reloaded, I a friend who had already seen it was just popping with excitement at having already seen it the night before.

I asked him what was up? He said, "oh, man, Matrix Reloaded was wicked!"

I asked him why?

He goes, "dude, it's like a total mindfuck! You just find out so many things! It's incredible! And then, at the end...it's like there's a Matrix within a Matrix or something!".

I was stunned.

Another Matrix within the Matrix?

I wasn't sure how I felt about that.

Anyway, I went along to watch Reloaded and I had just gone through two hours of the most mind-bending cinema I had ever had the pleasure of seeing. And then came the finale with the squiddies approaching Neo. So I thought, "okay, so this must be where the Matrix within a Matrix" revelation happens...

Only I saw Neo take down three squiddies with what looked oddly like the EMPs from the first movie. And then he fainted.

I don't think that an entity with power over a computer program would faint. After all, we saw Neo stopping the bullets at the end of the first movie, and he was literally on top of the world.

Whatever had happened to Neo was obviously something physical. Something real.

After the incredible effect Reloaded had on me, I started signing up on internet forums, and I started encountering more of this conjecture that there was another Matrix that existed...but it just didn't add up. The months between Reloaded and Revolutions I spent guaranteeing people that there was no second Matrix and that Neo's abilities came from something else. Something physical.

Now, when Neo is asking how these new abilities...all of which involve some form of electromagnetic projection/reception...and the Oracle says that he is connected to the Source... Well, whoop-dee-doo, but that sounds like the perfect explanation! Neo is directly connected to the machine mainframe.

That makes Neo more of a 'God' than any ill-conceived Matrix-within-a-Matrix claim.

Neo is the true machine God.

And as for the wireless connection...it makes perfect sense. How else does Neo project an EMP-looking event onto those squiddies?

EMP means 'electromagnetic pulse'. The body picks up electromagnetic frequencies, and those that we can physically interpret include infra-red ('heat') and visible light (via our eyes).

Is it such a grand gesture to think that Neo - who is a mechanically augmented human - is designed with a predisposed electromagnetic connection to the Source? The visual cue of the electromagnitic pulse-looking event says as much.

And here's the other thing: using the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theme actually fucks up a lot of the underlying subtext of the movies that pertain to cyberpunk issues of man and machine becoming increasingly intertwined, that pertain to Neo grappling with his Existentilist journey against the Nihilistic void of Smith, and the whole relevence of these philosophies (and others, such as the Übermensch or that determinism versus free will).

PiukNeo wrote:

So, I can't just see it like you man. On the other hand, the MwM theory,while not mentioned in any part of the trilogy (which is exaclty the point of it, being a surprise and a deception), it has many implies and references to it throught the trilogy, making it really posible, and also a answer to all of the questions that were left unaswered by the movie/Oracle.

I strongly advise that you re-read that statement and try and realise the self-contradictory nature of it.

What you are basically doing is creating your own premise (namely, 'Matrix-within-a-Matrix') and using the fact that its mere presence makes any extraordinary feat potentially explicable. But that doesn't make it the story of the trilogy. It just makes it a side-story or a piece of fan-fiction...and, to me, "that explanation is the lamest, weakest, and most incomplete one I had ever expected of the matrix revolutions for all the answers to neo's new powers in the real world".

It's a cop out.

And a hollow one at that.

I understand that you've obviously invested much in this theory, and you can believe whatever you want to believe.

I'm just letting you know that it's wrong

{Morpheus} wrote:

a sacraficial conduit, well those were my thoughts but what of Neo's mind?

The Oracle says that she suspects they will see Neo again "some day".

Neo's physical body is obviously as dead as a doornail, but notice that the machine city and the squiddies have had their red lights replaced with green ones...just like at the end of Matriculated.

I think that Neo's mind now penetrates the entire machine world, starting from the Source, all the way into the Matrix.

It may not be completey 'conscious', but it is there.

And Neo may indeed appear as a metaphysical incarnation within the Matrix again.

well no doubt i will be getting in contact with the W. Bros on the subject of a 4 Matrix movie to expound more on this subject.

max314 wrote:

PiunNeo wrote: The thing is that for whatever reasons anyone wants to give, and want to state originally from the matrix scripts, IT IS NOT SHOWN IN THE MOVIES. You know, not everything has to be explained in black and white. There are plenty of visual cues that support my argument, and - let's be honest - there is a lot less conjecture in what I am saying than in what you are. At least that's what I think.

Well, yes, I get the point in what you mean by not everything having to be in black an white and on screen, but for the ULTIMATE ORACLE'S EXPLANATION OF NEO'S POWERS IN THE REAL WORLD? I think it should've.

max314 wrote:

PiukNeo wrote: I mean, if you want me to just acept the fact that the Oracle's words were the best explanation for neo's new powers in the real world, I am positive, real positive that an army of people would come at any one who is saying what you are, and tell you(you all) " That explanation is the lamest, weakest, and most incomplete one I had ever expected of the matrix revolutions for all the answers to neo's new powers in the real world".(refering to the Oracle's explanation), Period. Cuz that's the truth man, it lacks of answers many people in this forum expected from the Oracle/Movie, and start to "inform"facts just as the noes that you were just adresing(very good by the way); like the wireless connection (that by the way I can not accept, cuz were in the movies is it clearly said, or even IMPLIED that Neo had a wireless connection besides the Oracle's words of "a connection to the source", "your powers extend form the source, to the real world"? Never) and the cyborgs (this one is very good, but it only gets as far as that WE KNOW ONLY FROM THE MOVIES THAT A CONNECTION TO THE MATRIX CAN BE MADE ONLY WITHOUT WIRELESS CONNECTION, or in others words with a cable). Okay, let's break your arguments down:

First of, I don't really intend to make arguments, for the reason that this languaje is my second one (I speak spanish), and therefore try my best on it, so they were already "broken down"(not that you need to break them down).

max314 wrote:

1. - "The explanation given by the Oracle is not satisfactory to me, therefore it can't be the explanation."

Then again, this weren't my own words. I just said that the oracle's explanation for me, and for many people was incomplete of answers. For many.

max314 wrote:

This is how I interpreted one of your sentiments. Assuming that this claim is correct, then I must say that this is an argument based on nothing but an assertion. "It's not the explanation because...because...it just can't be!" I'm afriad that that's not an argument.

And, well, again, it wasn't an argument. Thus no comments. Even so I repeat(spell?), many think the Oracle's explanation lacked of answers.

max314 wrote:

Personally, I think that the Oracle says a lot with very little. She doesn't sit there with a block of text like the Architect. She is his opposite. She explains things in a very informal, colloquial-yet-wise manner.

Well, you said it, you personally think, an oppinion.(and yes I know this forum is made for those, but this only makes the arguments less objective, more subjective).

max314 wrote:

So, the Oracle explains it sufficiently, and we can use the rest of the events in the trilogy to back this up without having to have the Oracle sit down with a block of facts.

Yes, that is correct, she can exprese herself in a opposite way the arch does, cuz`she's his opposite, nevertheless she has no exuse to hold on behind more answers we expected.

max314 wrote:

2. - "Neo can't have a wireless connection! There's no proof! There's nothing to suggest that!" Nothing except the Oracle's explanation. You see, the same day I was planning to see Reloaded, I a friend who had already seen it was just popping with excitement at having already seen it the night before. I asked him what was up? He said, "oh, man, Matrix Reloaded was wicked!" I asked him why? He goes, "dude, it's like a total mindfuck! You just find out so many things! It's incredible! And then, at the end...it's like there's a Matrix within a Matrix or something!". I was stunned. Another Matrix within the Matrix? I wasn't sure how I felt about that. Anyway, I went along to watch Reloaded and I had just gone through two hours of the most mind-bending cinema I had ever had the pleasure of seeing. And then came the finale with the squiddies approaching Neo. So I thought, "okay, so this must be where the Matrix within a Matrix" revelation happens... Only I saw Neo take down three squiddies with what looked oddly like the EMPs from the first movie. And then he fainted.

Ok, I really loved your a friend's story, but man, again trying to have a little respect for the "not on screen, nor in black or white", I again say: It is you, and many people, who believe neo's powers at the end of M2(or M3 also) are EMP's. Who ever said they were? Where in the movies did any character ever commented "Hey, did you see that? That look just like an EMP (refering to Neo's powers in the real world)". Sorry, but I havn't.

max314 wrote:

I don't think that an entity with power over a computer program would faint. After all, we saw Neo stopping the bullets at the end of the first movie, and he was literally on top of the world.

Now, this is different. First, supposing the MwM were right (so the real world is another matrix simulation), then Neo, even though being the One, he is the One (or has physical powers) only inside a computer program (because the CP has its own laws within, but written, thus can be broken, bent, etc by him), while in the real life, he has no power over the laws of physics (cuz they are written by God, if he exists, but not from a computer), thus he can not fly there, can not dodge bullets, can not break the rules. He is still the One, but has no powers in it.
So, as I was just saying, If the whole theory were to be true, then Neo's powers in the "real world" would be a manifestation of him becoming aware of another reality, but (and most importantly this but), HE'S NOT BEING LIBERATED YET from that simulation (still in the IF), thus the fainting (as the Oracle said clearly: "You weren't ready for it"), cuz, he was using powers from inside his pod in the Real World, therefore overpowred it, who knows why. If he were inside another simulation, he could even be controled by the machines from outside, cuz' if they wanted, they could make him die when ever the pleased(just as god), so, they could easily make him faint after his demostration of powers, cuz' maybe they did not want him to keep on doing that (yes, afterwards in M3, he's doing that and is not fainting, but that must have a reason too).

The point here is, that not because he's fainted, it means that he is not in another simulation, he could have easily been done that by the machines themselfs in the Real World in a way of control measure.

max314 wrote:

Whatever had happened to Neo was obviously something physical. Something real.

Well, not obviously, and maybe to YOU.

max314 wrote:

Now, when Neo is asking how these new abilities...all of which involve some form of electromagnetic projection/reception...and the Oracle says that he is connected to the Source... Well, whoop-dee-doo, but that sounds like the perfect explanation! Neo is directly connected to the machine mainframe.

Again, what does a connection to the source mean to you people? Cuz, it doesn't just solve the problem by just saying those words, they sure are simple, but more surely bring a lot of questions and problems here.

max314 wrote:

That makes Neo more of a 'God' than any ill-conceived Matrix-within-a-Matrix claim.

Neo's not a God, he's just a person. So i rather think it has a better meaning in the MwM theory than in your "Neo-being-a-God" one.

max314 wrote:

Neo is the true machine God.

He's not a machine, maybe a cyborg, not a machine, he's human for whatever it might bring counter-arguments.

max314 wrote:

And as for the wireless connection...it makes perfect sense. How else does Neo project an EMP-looking event onto those squiddies?

Bringin out again the EMP, not heard of it.

max314 wrote:

EMP means 'electromagnetic pulse'. The body picks up electromagnetic frequencies, and those that we can physically interpret include infra-red ('heat') and visible light (via our eyes).

Thanx, I did know what EMP meant, but thanx again. Just not on topic now. No need to bring EMP on stage now.

max314 wrote:

Is it such a grand gesture to think that Neo - who is a mechanically augmented human - is designed with a predisposed electromagnetic connection to the Source? The visual cue of the electromagnitic pulse-looking event says as much.

Mmmmm, I had to say that....yes! It is a huge gesture to do so! Not to mention that those phrases were not even implied by the Oracle's words, so, in a sense, yes, they are.
On the other side, even if it were right, then how do you RATIONALLY(try to read it right here, cuz it's important) explain the fact that a "human being" can stop by thinking it 4 flying machines, just beacuase he has a connection to a source(a super ultra computer system, where all the energy of another computer system[matrix] gets to) and can by some way[(explain here)] control BY HIS THOUGHTS AND WILL and eletromagnetic pulse. Wow, that must be great to do. All that, in a real world.

max314 wrote:

PiukNeo wrote: So, I can't just see it like you man. On the other hand, the MwM theory,while not mentioned in any part of the trilogy (which is exaclty the point of it, being a surprise and a deception), it has many implies and references to it throught the trilogy, making it really posible, and also a answer to all of the questions that were left unaswered by the movie/Oracle. I strongly advise that you re-read that statement and try and realise the self-contradictory nature of it.

Well, you should re-read your statments, cuz I did not self contradict in any way(just re-read it, anyone makes mistakes).
What I just wanted to say was simple:
The MwM theory(as opposed to the one matrix theory) is NEVER shown in the movies (for example Morpheus could have sayed this: "Could you run a search into the matrix for Neo now? I think we might be in a place we think it's real, but might not"-->yes it' s the beginning of M3, when he thinks he's jacked in); while the it might be better for some of you people for this to have happened, it is even better to keep it a surpise event, to some day, tell the crowds by any meduim (books, MxO, comics, etc): "the whole thing you were believing in, was a lie"
And damn it, isn't the whole matrix trilogy all about DECEPTION? Of reality v/s Illusion? Choice v/s predestination(not on topic, but even so)?

max314 wrote:

What you are basically doing is creating your own premise (namely, 'Matrix-within-a-Matrix') and using the fact that its mere presence makes any extraordinary feat potentially explicable. But that doesn't make it the story of the trilogy. It just makes it a side-story or a piece of fan-fiction...and, to me, "that explanation is the lamest, weakest, and most incomplete one I had ever expected of the matrix revolutions for all the answers to neo's new powers in the real world". It's a cop out. And a hollow one at that.

Again, this languaje is not my own, I speak Spanish, and I'm really trying my best to improve it every day, I just can not make the same arguments you can max.
Thank you very much.

max314 wrote:

I understand that you've obviously invested much in this theory, and you can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm just letting you know that it's wrong

I aldo thought this was a forum with open minded for opinions, and not facts, right and wrong.

{Morpheus} wrote:

well no doubt i will be getting in contact with the W. Bros on the subject of a 4 Matrix movie to expound more on this subject.

Oh, I heartily disagree!

I reckon that a fourth Matrix movie made about Neo would totally mess up the...uh...'trilogy' vibe?

Any other movies should be made on parallel struggles/stories (e.g. the lot in Matriculated).

max314 wrote:

Any other movies should be made on parallel struggles/stories (e.g. the lot in Matriculated).

You mean like my Matrix 4 script?

Shameless plug!

matrix-explained.com...

I'm mad. When I borrowed The Animatrix, Matriculated was scratched, so I couldn't see the end when the machine's eyes change, and other details found therein.

Any further movie installment would ruin the whole thing. It'll never happen.

well maybe but somehting must be done to to publicly determine the fate of Neo...u cant disagree there its true.

no matter what anyone says i believe that something should be done to finally set the fate of Neo to rest let us know exactly what happened. but thats just my point of view

PiukNeo wrote:

Well, yes, I get the point in what you mean by not everything having to be in black an white and on screen, but for the ULTIMATE ORACLE'S EXPLANATION OF NEO'S POWERS IN THE REAL WORLD? I think it should've.

It did.

PiukNeo wrote:

First of, I don't really intend to make arguments, for the reason that this languaje is my second one (I speak spanish), and therefore try my best on it, so they were already "broken down"(not that you need to break them down).

Please note: when I use the word 'argument', I mean it as in 'the reasoning behind a point'. It seems that you are taking it in an aggressive, confrontational sense. If this is so, then I assure you that this is not my intention.

Oh, and you're doing a great job with the English, by the way...my Spanish sucks, so you're definitely a lot better than me on the multilinguilism front

When I say "break down", what I mean is that I wish to simplify what I feel is the root of your argument. This enables me to form my response a lot more easily.

PiukNeo wrote:

Then again, this weren't my own words. I just said that the oracle's explanation for me, and for many people was incomplete of answers. For many.

Yes, I was paraphrasing (i.e. quoting approximately - I did this in order make it easier for me to form a response).

Also, I can assure you that the explanations given in the trilogy hold up perfectly without having to resort to a theory that has no precedence whatsoever within the story.

PiukNeo wrote:

And, well, again, it wasn't an argument. Thus no comments. Even so I repeat(spell?), many think the Oracle's explanation lacked of answers.

Just re-itterating what I mean by the term 'argument'...

Also, regardless of your view of what "many think", my concern is to what the facts of the trilogy are as presented within the trilogy.

PiukNeo wrote:

Well, you said it, you personally think, an oppinion.(and yes I know this forum is made for those, but this only makes the arguments less objective, more subjective).

Not really, since my opinion of the Oracle's style of speech this is not the root of my argument. It's just a side-thought.

PiukNeo wrote:

Yes, that is correct, she can exprese herself in a opposite way the arch does, cuz`she's his opposite, nevertheless she has no exuse to hold on behind more answers we expected.

Um...okay, here is the thing. Just because the "answers" you "expected" didn't turn up...that doesn't mean you just disregard the ones that did come up just because you don't feel like it.

If you don't like the explanation of The Matrix Revolutions and it annoys you, then maybe you should just say that Revolutions wasn't for you.

It sounds to me more as though you had this whole little 'MWAM' thing all worked out in your head and you went into Revolutions thinking that your stroke of personal genius was about to be patted on the back...and you were told that your theory was wrong.

You then responded by thinking "oh, to hell with the explanation the movie gives...I don't much like it, so I'll just go and stick to my old one!".

And you did this despite the fact that the Oracle's explanation makes sense: the Matrix is rooted at the Source, and Neo is connected to the Source, and that's how he can do what he can do.

Neo is connected to the Source.

I didn't hear anything about another Matrix. And while there is an official explanation in the film, I see no need to go completely out of the movie and create a completely separate one...just because you don't like it

PiukNeo wrote:

Ok, I really loved your a friend's story, but man, again trying to have a little respect for the "not on screen, nor in black or white", I again say: It is you, and many people, who believe neo's powers at the end of M2(or M3 also) are EMP's. Who ever said they were? Where in the movies did any character ever commented "Hey, did you see that? That look just like an EMP (refering to Neo's powers in the real world)". Sorry, but I havn't.

I never said it was explicitly stated, but I did say earlier on in the thread that visual cues are used. I said this on the forums way back in 2003 before Revolutions even came out.

My point is not that Neo produced EMPs, but that the fact that it resembled an EMP (moreso than it resembled Neo stopping bullets at the end of the first Matrix...) meant that something was happening on an electromagnetic frquency.

It wasn't virtual.

It was physical.

If it was a program, why would Neo faint? Why doesn't he just stop the squiddies and...I dunno...start flying? Why is it that all of his new abilities are only ones that have to do with transmitting and receiving signals (stopping squiddies, self-destructing bombs, seeing the machine world's energy signature, broadcasting his signal into the Matrix independent of a ship, etc).

Coincidence?

Combined with the Oracle's explanations...I most certainly think not.

PiukNeo wrote:

Now, this is different. First, supposing the MwM were right (so the real world is another matrix simulation), then Neo, even though being the One, he is the One (or has physical powers) only inside a computer program (because the CP has its own laws within, but written, thus can be broken, bent, etc by him), while in the real life, he has no power over the laws of physics (cuz they are written by God, if he exists, but not from a computer), thus he can not fly there, can not dodge bullets, can not break the rules. He is still the One, but has no powers in it. So, as I was just saying, If the whole theory were to be true, then Neo's powers in the "real world" would be a manifestation of him becoming aware of another reality, but (and most importantly this but), HE'S NOT BEING LIBERATED YET from that simulation (still in the IF), thus the fainting (as the Oracle said clearly: "You weren't ready for it"), cuz, he was using powers from inside his pod in the Real World, therefore overpowred it, who knows why. If he were inside another simulation, he could even be controled by the machines from outside, cuz' if they wanted, they could make him die when ever the pleased(just as god), so, they could easily make him faint after his demostration of powers, cuz' maybe they did not want him to keep on doing that (yes, afterwards in M3, he's doing that and is not fainting, but that must have a reason too). The point here is, that not because he's fainted, it means that he is not in another simulation, he could have easily been done that by the machines themselfs in the Real World in a way of control measure.

A fun idea, but not conclusive at all.

I'll tell you why.

You use one quote from the Oracle: "...you weren't ready for it".

But you're referring to "it" as meaning "manipulating another Matrix", when the Oracle explicitly states that "it" refers to Neo touching "the Source".

To repeat my excerpt from earlier:
----
[b]Oracle: The Source. That's what you felt when you touched those Sentinels. But you weren't ready for it.
----
I mean, Jesus Christ, how much more obvious can I make it?

I'm not making this shit up. It's not 'a theory' when it's this bloody obvious.

Just read that quote and tell me how many 'alternative interpretations' you can offer! You can't just take one part of the quote, take it out of context, stick it into a new context concocted by your wishful thinking and say "hey, look - there's a new theory!".

I'm sorry, but that's just rubbish...

PiukNeo wrote:

Well, not obviously, and maybe to YOU.

Ugh...

PiukNeo wrote:

Again, what does a connection to the source mean to you people? Cuz, it doesn't just solve the problem by just saying those words, they sure are simple, but more surely bring a lot of questions and problems here.

It's like saying that your penis is connected to your body.

Neo is connected to the Source.

I don't see the "questions and problems here".

PiukNeo wrote:

Neo's not a God, he's just a person. So i rather think it has a better meaning in the MwM theory than in your "Neo-being-a-God" one.

I meant it as a metaphor...

PiukNeo wrote:

He's not a machine, maybe a cyborg, not a machine, he's human for whatever it might bring counter-arguments.

By 'machine God' I mean that he can kick any machine's ass at a whim. He can hook into their network with a mere thought. He can pop into the Matrix for a quick vacation whenever he wants.

He's got the machine world on lock down...almost. With a bit more practice, he could do whatever the heck he wanted.

Shit, he was standing face-to-face with the Deus Ex Machina and could have shut down their entire system with a fucking fart.

It's metaphorical, but it's so applicable, it's one pubic hair away from being literal.

P.S. - Neo being a cyborg is not a "maybe". It's a fact. The dude has metallic ports that are designed to send electrical signals into his nervous system, which is in turn equipped to receive and interpret those signals.

He is a cyborg.

From the guys that cited Ghost In The Shell and 'Neuromancer' as being among their most prominent influences, would you really expect anything less?

PiukNeo wrote:

Bringin out again the EMP, not heard of it.

Again, I'm not saying that Neo produced an EMP...merely that Neo produced something that resembled the EMPs from the first movie, which would be a visual indication that whatever Neo did happened on the electromagnetic level. The fact that human beings already pick up signals from specific parts of the EM spectrum such as infra-red ('heat') and the visible region (which we see as visible light that allows us to see) indicates that a cyborg human with sufficient modifications would be able to harbour in internal wireless connection. Cell phone companies are already developing the technology, for Christ's sake...and it makes an appearance in relevent literature such as Ghost In The Shell.

PiukNeo wrote:

Thanx, I did know what EMP meant, but thanx again. Just not on topic now. No need to bring EMP on stage now.

Um...Neo being able to manipulate electromagnetic frequencies is the core of all his abilities, dude.

It's "on topic" as hell.

PiukNeo wrote:

Mmmmm, I had to say that....yes! It is a huge gesture to do so! Not to mention that those phrases were not even implied by the Oracle's words, so, in a sense, yes, they are.

If:

1 + 1 = 2

Then:

'Neo connected to the Source'
+
'Neo does what only an electromagnetic wave could do'
=
'Neo is connected to Source on electromagnetic frequency'

...

[quote"PiukNeo"]On the other side, even if it were right, then how do you RATIONALLY(try to read it right here, cuz it's important) explain the fact that a "human being" can stop by thinking it 4 flying machines, just beacuase he has a connection to a source(a super ultra computer system, where all the energy of another computer system[matrix] gets to) and can by some way[(explain here)] control BY HIS THOUGHTS AND WILL and eletromagnetic pulse. Wow, that must be great to do. All that, in a real world.[/quote]

That's because Neo is not a pure "human being", Piuk.

He is cyborg.

This is a fact.

Read through what I've said above.

Plus, the premise of the movie is science fiction, and the premise of a mechanically augmented human being having a connection to a computer network is as old as the '80s my friend.

If you read/watched just a little more cyberpunk, you would know this and we probably wouldn't be having this 'debate'.

PiukNeo wrote:

Well, you should re-read your statments, cuz I did not self contradict in any way(just re-read it, anyone makes mistakes).

Um...you said:
----
On the other hand, the MwM theory,while not mentioned in any part of the trilogy (which is exaclty the point of it, being a surprise and a deception), it has many implies and references to it throught the trilogy, making it really posible, and also a answer to all of the questions that were left unaswered by the movie/Oracle.
----
You say that this 'MWAM' theory is "not mentioned in any part of the trilogy", and yet there are somehow "references to it throughout the trilogy".

You really can't have it both ways, Piuk...

PiukNeo wrote:

What I just wanted to say was simple: The MwM theory(as opposed to the one matrix theory) is NEVER shown in the movies (for example Morpheus could have sayed this: "Could you run a search into the matrix for Neo now? I think we might be in a place we think it's real, but might not"-->yes it' s the beginning of M3, when he thinks he's jacked in); while the it might be better for some of you people for this to have happened, it is even better to keep it a surpise event, to some day, tell the crowds by any meduim (books, MxO, comics, etc): "the whole thing you were believing in, was a lie" And damn it, isn't the whole matrix trilogy all about DECEPTION? Of reality v/s Illusion? Choice v/s predestination(not on topic, but even so)?

Yes, the trilogy is about illusions.

But you're only looking at the first layer of the depth that the trilogy offers.

In [i]Reloaded, the Wachowskis go beyond virtual illusions to an illusion based on ignorance ("either no-one told me...or no-one knows").

In Revolutions, the Wachowskis go beyond the barrier of gnosis, and say that even the very emotions and values we take for granted - peace, truth, love, etc - are nothing more than self-imposed illusory constructs.

By the time the crater scene comes around, the Brothers have effectively stripped away every layer of illusion and presented you with the ultimate question: "what's the point if it's all an illusion?".

The answer, of course, is that we simply "choose to" accept them. We have to. We have no other choice. We are all small parts of a vast cosmos, and the only way we can find peace is not to change our environment, but to change how we interact with our environment ("it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself").

And then...after all of that...to say that the Brothers stuck another Matrix in there just for the heck of it?

C'mon, don't tell me you don't see how none of this fits the bill!

PiukNeo wrote:

Again, this languaje is not my own, I speak Spanish, and I'm really trying my best to improve it every day, I just can not make the same arguments you can max. Thank you very much.

Dude, like I said, my Spanish is nowhere near as good as your English, so I am much humbled by your skills!

PiukNeo wrote:

I aldo thought this was a forum with open minded for opinions, and not facts, right and wrong.

That's fine, but when Neo's cassock is black, there's little ground for saying that it's pink!