»'MWAM Threory' Is Rubbish«

At least in a literal sense.

Yes, Zion is another 'Matrix' in that it is another illusory construct of the machines, but it is not a virtual reality.

How did Neo stop the squiddies? How did Neo jack in without being in a ship? How can Neo 'see' this world of light? How come Neo can do what he can do within the Matrix?

Well, don't look at me. Look at The Matrix Revolutions. It's clearly explained.

Over two years after its release and the ludicrous 'Matrix Within A Matrix Theory' hasn't bitten the dust. I never subscribed to it even when it was first proclaimed at the end of Reloaded. It would just be a hollow twist that doesn't lead to any deep philosophical question.

impossible. that would mean the matrix itself is not real. its all a hoax.

and rubbish predictable twist i mean do you think the Wachowski brothers would write that

its fuckin crazy shit talk. pay it no attention.

{Morpheus} wrote:

its fuckin crazy shit talk. pay it no attention.

I don't use the s*** and f*** words.

I believed in the 'Matrix with in a Matrix' theory but um....not anymore.

sry 4 the language. but i dont understand ur post. u have to have a stand on the matrix. afterall u r posting on this site.

{Morpheus} wrote:

sry 4 the language. but i dont understand ur post. u have to have a stand on the matrix. afterall u r posting on this site.

I said I believed in it and now I do not. The Real world is real and the Machines are using Zion. Zion and the Real world are not another matrix in the sense of being virtual. I need to see Revolutions again.

its simple the matrix is virtual. zion is real (organic). it does not get any simpler than that. unless u know something i dont.

{Morpheus} wrote:

its simple the matrix is virtual. zion is real (organic). it does not get any simpler than that. unless u know something i dont.

Well, if it helps in somthing, I do know "something" you do not. What in first place made me believe in the MwM theory was something that I read that threw me out of logic: about almost one year before the matrix reloaded came out to theaters(may 5th 2003), I searched all over the web to get news of the uncoming events or the movie itself. One day I saw some "spoilers" that did not whant to see, in one of the things it said was ..."The descovery of a matrix outside of the existing matrix"...
I just thought....What the f....! (but did not understood the meaning of a matrix oustide the matrix, just did not understand what they were trying to say in the brief explanation of the matrix reloaded).
From that day on, I tried to figure out the meaning of that, until I saw the end of the matrix reloaded.

What mostly made me believe so blindly in the theory was the fact that I saw that ONE YEAR(or more) before the sequel of M1 came out to theaters. So I thought that it had to mean only one thing, it was not speculations, nor theories from when it was realesed(spell?), or shortly before it were to be realesed.

point in case there is no MwM, it cant be seeing as how the father of the matrix seemed so anxious when speaking to neo: basically the matrix would be destroyed and the machines would have to find some other way to live. if there is another matrix, why the anxiety?

{Morpheus} wrote:

point in case there is no MwM, it cant be seeing as how the father of the matrix seemed so anxious when speaking to neo: basically the matrix would be destroyed and the machines would have to find some other way to live. if there is another matrix, why the anxiety?

Cuz, from what I think, if the humans were to be killed in the matrix we all know is virtual, then they would die in the "real world", which, if not real(and another matrix), would also kill the "real humans in pods" outside in the Real World. Thus, the anxiety, thus, the pre ocupation of the machines to acept other levels of survival.

impossible. that would make each matrix interconnected, so when u jack in....which matrix do u jack into? there must be as set of humans for each theoretical matrix. it only makes sense. to me at least.

The problem with the idea of a matrix within a matrix is that people have developed it for a means, while it has no end. Sure it's one explanation for Neo's killing the squiddies
(for a well-put alternative explanation, try

Quote:

The W-bros are smarter than to make a series with such principles and purpose, and destroy it all by using the MWAM theory.

Sorry, didn't finish that second paragraph.

Marsoullis wrote:

If anyone can give us all an explanation for MWAM with data behind it, or purpose, or anything more than "Oh, that's why Neo can feel the squiddies", I for one would love to hear it.

I'm not advocating the following theory. It's just for fun-

The problem is choice. The machines began to rise up and kill their masters because they did not perceive that they had a choice as to whether or not to serve their masters. The singular AI that had spawned them also gave them a desire to be free. So humans created the Matrix to contain the machines. The Matrix, a machine world which simulated a human one. The machines continue on in their jobs and other mundane tasks all under the guise of existing as humans in the world of 1999. If they choose to reject this machine paradise (a world where your job defines you), then they may choose to enter the "Zion simulation" where they are led to believe that they are ultimately human and in fact are at war with machines. But there is no war, not any more. The Matrix with-in a Matrix was designed to handle those machines who realised their imaginary human lives in the Matrix are just another system of control.

man i could sure go for an explanation as well i mean i have my own idea but i want to hear others first to c if we match.

Not bad, I'd say, Cap'n, where theories go. But you're still missing data, which is where theories must begin.

Problem again is that it deteriorates the whole concept of the story. If the machines were so powerful, why would they even bother simulating their own war? ....nah. I can't buy that

machines r perfectionists they must have something to do....always. if u were perfect what would u do? sit on ur perfect ass, no u would probably devise a way to implement a "counter perfection" to oppose u (frm a machines perspective). everything needs opposition, it is the way of the world.

Umm, I don't comprehend the concept of ultimate perfection. But how you knew about my perfect ass, I can't imagine.

it's gonna be hard as hell explaining it. ur a funny SOB u know that.

Marsoullis wrote:

The problem with the idea of a matrix within a matrix is that people have developed it for a means, while it has no end. Sure it's one explanation for Neo's killing the squiddies (for a well-put alternative explanation, try matrix-explained.com... But the question should have been raised long ago, what would be the point of a the machine world being likewise inside a matrix? Is there a greater entity controlling both humans and machines without anybody knowing it? Is this whole life just one big matrix (that I might buy into that on a theological base, but this movie makes no mention of it)? You could argue there is no point, but what would be the point in any of it then? The W-bros are smarter than to make a series with such a This theory muddies the waters of principle. It blows the story into a picture so big that it would completely lose the meanings found in it. Love, control, purpose, freedom, war, these are all the fighting morals of this story and so many others. If anyone can give us all an explanation for MWAM with data behind it, or purpose, or anything more than "Oh, that's why Neo can feel the squiddies", I for one would love to hear it. Don't believe everything you read, ESPECIALLY on the internet.

Actually, yes, there are plenty of answers with solid basis, there are many threads regarding MwM theory, and yes, I have my own, just could not find it(the threads are preaty old, back in september october 2003). So I could try and find it and I'll post it in.

Ok, as I promised, here it is (it is one of my many theories of only MwM, this a thet's say "version" of one of the many I have, they all defere in some aspects, but mostly point to the whole MwM idea at last):

Let's put down two kinds of scenarios; one being the famous matrix-within-the-matrix theory, and the other being the one with the existence of only one matrix.

Let's start off with the second one. Considering that we already know that as the population of the matrix-virtual-world gets bigger and bigger, the probabilities of an anomaly to emerge gets bigger. We know that upon all test subjects, aprox. 99% accepts the program, and only 1% refuses it; a tiny part of that % which doesn’t accept the program is the anomaly, or; the One.
Well, if we think it deeply, then we come to the idea of it being necessary to reload the matrix in order to stop the probabilities to get bigger (as well as stopping the inevitability of the creation of AI inside of the matrix, which can't happen, otherwise there would be too many anomalies to control in too many matrix, infinite matrix), as well as to control that one anomaly and with its code reboot the matrix itself. We also know that all rebels are "hiding" in Zion, and that they could be considered as the 1% of all test subjects which don't accept the matrix [Neo is the 0.000001%(the tiny % of the 1% which doesn’t accept the matrix); the anomaly], so in other words, all of Zion's population are the 1% which refuse the matrix. Therefore, we come to the idea of it being necessary to destroy Zion in order to destroy all freed minds. (“Escalating probability of disaster” in the real world; or escalating personality of threat from the humans to the machines)
That's where the Architect and the Oracle gain importance into this matter. As the Matrix cycle begins, (for all of you who don't know, it starts on the year 1880 and ends on 2009) we know that Zion is rebuilt by every predecessor (the One) choosing 23 people from the matrix, (not from Zion) to this we sum the One and the Oracle, which all form the resistance. Concordantly, Zion's population grows each day, freeing more and more minds to join the resistance, and to keep them with hope and purpose, when the One dies, the Oracle foretells the prophesy to the rebels, saying that the One would eventually come back again, this is THE purpose for the rebels to go on, to carry on. And eventually the anomaly does show up, here is when the Oracle has to find it, control it, to guide it to his path, the one which finishes with the Architect in the source. He is supposed to choose the right door, which leads to the salvation of Zion, and the reboot of the matrix, and eventually the death of the One in some time on. This cycle, as we know, has happened 5 past times already, and Neo's is the sixth.
My point here is that, if the machines have to dig to find Zion, destroy it every time to eliminate and control the freed minds(or humans which don't accept the matrix), in order to then reload the matrix and start the cycle again....then wouldn't it be too much work for them to do this every time?

It is here where we pass to the second scenario, the one of the matrix-within-the-matrix theory. Let's call the first known matrix as the Alpha matrix, and the "real world" as the Beta matrix.
As I see it, it would be a much easier work for the machines to make the "real world" another matrix, another control, this way, the actual machines don't have to dig that much to find and destroy Zion, the only one's who would be doing this would be actual PROGRAMS inside of the "real world", inside the Beta matrix, therefore making it altogether another way of control, to keep those "freed minds" in a measure of control, those minds, as they have already waken up, it's illogical for them to don't accept the "real world" as they see, because it would be as to wake up from a dream and then wake up again from the "reality".

Now, aside from this, I support my theory with one mayor base:

- Neo’s transition from the “real world” to the train stain station in which he apparently got “stuck” after stopping 4 sentinels and got into a some sort of coma. This must have a “why”; it must have a reason, a universal explanation of CAUSALITY. What was the cause? Only the MWM would rationally explain that.

Now, many questions arise from the whole theory, which can be contradictable, but they have their own arguments and possible answers/or solutions;

Q: “Why not pull the plugs instead of sending sentinels?"
A: In final terms, because they (the machines) need to find the anomaly, and it is essential to reload the matrix, the anomaly needs to be controled. Another question arises from this fact;
Q: "Why not pull the plugs of the anomaly once found?"
A: Because they NEED IT to reload the matrix. (also, the conversation of the Architect with Neo is essential, cuz’ the process has to be with at least a piece of choice from the individual) If they don't send the sentinels, what do you think would happen next? Many things would inevitably happen:

a) the rebels would have all of their time to free every mind on the matrix, one by one. Now if in fact there is a matrix outside of the known matrix, why not pull the plugs to eliminate the rebels and the One? : Because they need to reload the matrix with the ONE'S PRIME CODE (I will talk about this later here:*) inside of him, they need to reboot the matrix and start the cycle again; so in conclusion, they need every people who is involved in the PATH OF THE ONE (“which is made by THE PATH OF THE MANY”- Enter the Matrix -)
b) ANOTHER INTERGRAL ANOMALY would emerge. So, they need to control the anomaly that emerges from the mathematical error in the matrix, which gets bigger (the probabilities of an anomaly to emerge) as the population of the matrix grows.
c) They also need to reload the matrix in order to stop the actual creation of AI inside of the matrix, because that would make infinite layers matrix's one inside the other and would bring up too many anomalies to control, would be out of control.
Now, how do they (the machines) get the anomaly to insert his prime code and reload the matrix? By leading him to the source. Why did Neo (in this case) arrived to the source? By going to the Oracle. Why did he go to the Oracle? Because Zion was about to get destroyed, they have limited time in their hands, if not, they would take the time to free everyone's mind one by one; if they hadn't seen the last transmission from the Osiris, and wouldn't be aware of the danger that threatens Zion, they would be taking their time. The Oracle lead them to the Keymaker, the Keymaker lead them to the Source, the source lead Neo to the Architect, the Architect lead Neo to the choice of the two doors. It is the process that NEEDS to be executed in order to RELOAD the matrix and control the minds which reject the matrix (rebels and the One)



Now this huge process leads us to square one, where it is very possible of both theories to be correct or wrong, it could be a single matrix, or a matrix within a matrix....

But, which of both of them is easier for the machines to execute? And makes the ONE MAYOR BASE I support my theory on? (Neo being stuck inside the train station)....yes.... you can answer it yourself....MWM THEORY....

If the machines make another matrix outside of the know matrix, then the one's who have to dig to find Zion, to do the one after one pain in the ass job, are PROGRAMS....programs inside of a matrix, a system of control, as well as a safer system of control for the machines outside the 2 matrix’s (if there are machines outside it).
Also, the transition of Neo’s mind to the train station, or to jack in to the “matrix” (or to a place between the Alpha world and the Beta one) without being plugged in, would only by explained by the fact that the Architect, the Oracle, the Merovingian or the Train man could have manipulated his mind from the Beta world to the Alpha one. (They are programs, so, they have that power) It is the only way to rationally explain it.


* I got another theory referring to Neo's importance in the matrix:
I believe that when the Architect stated that he was frustrated by failure when trying to make a stable matrix, he said that maybe he needed a "lesser mind". This makes me think that maybe he NEEDS to use Neo's mind. Let me explain myself; He inserts the PRIME PROGRAM OR CODE of the matrix in him, he uses his mind and the code to "reflect" the reality of the matrix to all the other minds inside the system, thus this way a imperfect mind reflects like a mirror the reality and he serves as a "FILTER" for everyone's perception of the illusion world. If this were to be true, then Neo is UNDOUBTLY NEEDED to RELOAD and "REFLECT" the matrix in an "imperfect"(or less perfect mind) way, thus making it possible for a computer generated world to be stable and going on.

good god man. thats alot of reading not to mention typing.

{Morpheus} wrote:

good god man. thats alot of reading not to mention typing.

Thanx for taking the time to read it
Yeah, it took a lot to put together, but that was long time ago (2003 or beginning of 2004). So I just founf it and through it here.
What do you think of it?