»"Your Predecessors had more respect"«

loudbark wrote:

mrbrown950 wrote: I dont understand why The Merovingian Makes his thugs fight him if Neo stopped their bullets? I mean, why would he think that his thugs will have a chance fighting Neo? Apparently The Merovingian didnt know that This Particular Anomaly could stop Bullets. Maybe the Previous Anomalys couldn't, which is why he makes this statement " Okay you have some skill "

I think the only reason why Neo can do this is because he became the one through love. It inevetably was the love of trinity that set him free (sort of speaking)

were as the prevvious one were created to fasilate the function of the one, meaning they were dumb shits that did the basic thing.

I never looked at Neo as being a Different Anomaly. But your right he is Different then all the rest, because of his Specific Love, while the others had General Love.

Since he has a Different mindset, I guess its no suprise he can do different things

*nods*

Maybe the predecessors had he same potential as Neo did, only they couldn't 'excersize' this from their minds because they lacked the mental motivation of pure love.

Linking this to the Anti One, being Neo's exact reflection, it might be possible that the 'Anti One' in the previous cycles was just the main agent of the threesome and nothing more was needed to outbalance the equation.

I have always seen the anomalys as starting on the same level, logically it makes more scense

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Maybe the predecessors had he same potential as Neo did, only they couldn't 'excersize' this from their minds because they lacked the mental motivation of pure love.

There are more factors to Neo's powers than love.

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Linking this to the Anti One, being Neo's exact reflection, it might be possible that the 'Anti One' in the previous cycles was just the main agent of the threesome and nothing more was needed to outbalance the equation.

How does this work exactly. This explanation, that is. The equation?

or maybe it is the case that no past One was as powerfull as Neo, thus Neo forced the system to try harder then before to balance the stupid equation which may have helped create Smith. Personally, I still think the idea of an anti-one all the time is off, but to each his own.

I have to agree with Hexediter, Neo was definitly Unique.

No one was as powerful as this Anomaly, The architect had try even harder to keep this Anomaly or Eqation balanced

intell wrote:

There are more factors to Neo's powers than love.

Then please share them with me.

The One carries a combination of code that makes him able to break every rule within the Matrix. The question is however, is he able to free his mind to such an extend that he can truly break all of these rules? It is just like God giving us talents but we do not always excersize or discover our talents to the full maximum.

Being in love gives you a very special euphoric feeling. You really feel that you can deal with the world, that nothing can stand in your way (that's why Neo has no respect for the Merovingian). The point is that love is feeding Neo's mental power, making him able to free his mind to the maximum.

I do think that previous Ones could stop bullets. They had to at least have beaten an agent-threesome including their guns. I think it's the first time that the Merovigian personally observes the skills of the One; the others had respect so they didn't need to fight.

The difference with Neo and the previous Ones is that he can mentally deal with more things in the world of the mind: he can beat dozens of Smiths, he can beat the Mero-crew, he can fly faster than time, etc. These little extra powers are all due to his love for Trinity.

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How does this work exactly. This explanation, that is. The equation?

I think it works like this...

You have systemic anomaly versus the soldiers of rational order aka the agents.

The agents are an integral component of the Matrix system and their job is to fight anything that is anomalous, or in other words: not complying to the system or purpose.

So maybe with the previous Ones, while all of them didn't reach their full potential, the 'normal' agents were probably enough to bother them over and over again while they were on their missions in the Matrix. But with Neo, who reached the full potential of the One, the system needed a stronger counterpart.

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The One carries a combination of code that makes him able to break every rule within the Matrix.

That's just the Architect's way of putting the fact that Neo's powers come from somewhere else. Oracle said the same thing but put it a different way. The One is a title.

Love plays a major role in the Path of Neo. This is true. But so is his increasing awareness of how things work. Including what I just said in the above paragraph.

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You have systemic anomaly versus the soldiers of rational order aka the agents. The agents are an integral component of the Matrix system and their job is to fight anything that is anomalous, or in other words: not complying to the system or purpose. So maybe with the previous Ones, while all of them didn't reach their full potential, the 'normal' agents were probably enough to bother them over and over again while they were on their missions in the Matrix. But with Neo, who reached the full potential of the One, the system needed a stronger counterpart.

This explains part of the "hows" from the technical aspect of it. But the "equation" as the Architect puts it also involves choices. So your explanation may need to encompass "why" an agent became "abnormal" not just in powers but also in the course the Smith took.

Whose system needed a stronger counterpart?

intell wrote:

That's just the Architect's way of putting the fact that Neo's powers come from somewhere else. Oracle said the same thing but put it a different way. The One is a title.

Correct. In this title lies both a function (rational) and a potential to step out of this function and follow the individual path by heart (irrational).

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Love plays a major role in the Path of Neo. This is true. But so is his increasing awareness of how things work. Including what I just said in the above paragraph.

True, Neo enlightens himself more and more and that's also why his powers increase. But isn't this enlightment process directly coupled to his love for Trinity?
Only after his visit in Mobil Ave station Neo becomes 'enlightenened' to the fact that love isn't reserved just for him and Trinity; even programs emphasize love and this strenghtens/enlightens Neo to do what he really has to do.

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This explains part of the "hows" from the technical aspect of it. But the "equation" as the Architect puts it also involves choices. So your explanation may need to encompass "why" an agent became "abnormal" not just in powers but also in the course the Smith took. Whose system needed a stronger counterpart?

Neo represents the sum of the 1% non-accepters by choice.

The agents represent the 99% accepters by choice, because they can inhabit any participant of the program.

Now this '1powerfull-versus-99conformers'-equation must outbalance itself. Maybe with the previous Ones, the normal agents were enough to put the One under pressure.

But Neo is a much more powerfull expression of the 1%-counterpart, so the system needs a stronger entity on the 99%-counterpart --> Smith is taking over all the blue pills in order to put pressure on Neo.

But one thing that keeps 'bothering' me is the cataclismic system crash with which the Architect threatens Neo. I still think he is talking about Smith the 'virus' here. So that still makes me think that there was a 'virus'-like Anti One at the end of each cycle.

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But one thing that keeps 'bothering' me is the cataclismic system crash with which the Architect threatens Neo. I still think he is talking about Smith the 'virus' here. So that still makes me think that there was a 'virus'-like Anti One at the end of each cycle.

I think that's pretty dead on, Mobil_Ave_Neo. Both the Architect and The Oracle agree that the Matrix is going down hard. However, only the Oracle addresses "the end" as Smith. She gives it a personal touch. Actually, the Oracle and the Architect, throughout the sequels, more or less tell Neo the same information in different ways (rational and intuitive).

As for the Smith-Virus ,I think you're half-right Mobil.

I'm still pretty confident in the notion that there were no Smith-like "viruses" in the past iterations. With the little substantial evidence we have, it is pretty much fact that the previous Ones were not as skilled as Neo. Not only in physical prowess, but in wit and development of consciousness (through love, experience, etc.). This is addressed by the Merovingian, The Architect, and the Oracle. He surprises every one of them.

If The One must always have some sort of counterweight (which makes perfect sense, since the Architect is always trying to balance the equation), then there needs to be someone or something that is an equal opposite to The One of that interation. However, if The One follows the "system of control" (door of light, return to source), then he is just as much a part of the normal functions of the Matrix as, say, an Agent! In other words, an Agent such as Smith would not have to posess any virus-like abilities in a previous iteration if he is simply following protocol like The One.

However, Neo doesn't follow protocol. Like the Oracle told Neo, he had already made the choice to save Trinity (-> the choice of and for love), even before he met with the Architect. In other words, this version of the Matrix and its fate was set into motion from the moment Neo destroyed Smith in M1. Smith said it was "impossible", what Neo had done to him. This coming from an Agent who has been around for quite some time, possibly in past versions of the Matrix. If The One is changing in drastic ways, so must his opposite.

However, and I think you probably know this already, there is one giant achilles heel to this entire theory. If there is no virus in the previous iterations of the Matrix, then what is the Architect's bargaining chip with the previous Ones? Truth be told, we just can't know as of yet. We could theorize all day regarding this very subject, but the subject in and of itself was not mentioned in any of the films save for the Architect mentioning an "escalating probability of disaster". Though that doesn't mean we can't guess in the meantime ....

If my theory were right regarding the Smith-Virus being a counterweight to Neo's powers, then perhaps the Architect gave the previous Ones a completely different reason to return to the Source. Maybe he showed the previous Ones the long-term ramifications of what would happen if Zion continued to exist (after all, he isn't exactly happy with how things worked out at the end of Revolutions). At present, this is my best theory. If The One continued to free minds, then the system itself (the Agents, etc.) would have to step up to the challenge. In the end, they would end up destroying the Matrix and, consequentially, each other. Like Brian Takle said in his Revolutions essay, the machines and humans were always on equal footing. I like to think that's true.

Nice response Vanexel!

Another option could be this...

Neo is the expression of the ever growing systemic anomaly. The One has to return to the Source eventually, because if the Matrix doesn't get 'corrected' / 'reloaded' then it would crash. The systemic anomaly would gain towards an unhealthy weight within the equation and it would make the Matrix crash.

So the cataclysmic crash is going to happen anyway; either by natural course of the equation or by the doings of Smith.

Now that Neo had a different course, the 'cataclysmic crash' was speed up by the system in order to put more pressure on the 'disfunctional' One of this cycle.

Normally it's the function of the One to reload the Matrix, correct the equation and let the 99% live out another happy cycle. But now that this particular One was stepping out of this function ("you already made the choice [when you fell in love with Trinity]"), the 99%-counterpart in the equation became desperate and subconsciously used Smith as a shell to fight/force Neo into submission.

I don't agree with you about Smith being around for longer than one cycle. Otherwise he wouldn't believe in the 'illusion' that he can destroy Zion with the codes from Morpheus. The only possibility could be that Smith gets reloaded also and he loses his memory from the past cycle.

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Nice response Vanexel!

Thanks!

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Another option could be this... Neo is the expression of the ever growing systemic anomaly. The One has to return to the Source eventually, because if the Matrix doesn't get 'corrected' / 'reloaded' then it would crash. The systemic anomaly would gain towards an unhealthy weight within the equation and it would make the Matrix crash. So the cataclysmic crash is going to happen anyway; either by natural course of the equation or by the doings of Smith.

Completely agree here. If this weren't the case, then the Architect would have no reason to complain.

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Now that Neo had a different course, the 'cataclysmic crash' was speed up by the system in order to put more pressure on the 'disfunctional' One of this cycle. Normally it's the function of the One to reload the Matrix, correct the equation and let the 99% live out another happy cycle. But now that this particular One was stepping out of this function ("you already made the choice [when you fell in love with Trinity]"), the 99%-counterpart in the equation became desperate and subconsciously used Smith as a shell to fight/force Neo into submission.

Well, I wouldn't want to go that far with it, saying it was the work of the 99% counterpart. It's an interesting theory, but not one I personally feel is justified within the films themselves. Maybe I need some more detail on your part to really understand it.

I will say this, however: you could be onto something greater with that theory. The Architect tells Neo that "the choice" (to stay plugged in or unplug) must be accepted on a near unconscious level. Near unconscious? Could the Architect be alluding to some some form of higher consciousness? After all, this is the Oracle's discovery. Decoding the Archiitect's words into Oracle-speak could mean that "all humans within the Matrix intuitively know they are plugged in at some point in their life, but they make the choice to stay in or reject the system". It would also explain the growth of consciousness/powers of all the unplugged characters. They are, in a sense, closer to their own Self (or soul, etc.). And, with a more freed consciousness, they are able to exercise their abilities more freely within the Matrix. Even moreso, the previous iterations of the Matrix are no place for the emergence of Spirit within the system, and for that reason the 1% are compelled to unplug.

It's basically Takle's explanation, but with a more Ken Wilber-esque approach.

Another idea that sort of ties in with your theory a bit better is saying that Neo is, in a sense, a representative of all humanity, for both Zion and the bluepills. When he destroys/resurrects Smith, this could be seen as humanity on both sides of the fence evolving Smith.

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I don't agree with you about Smith being around for longer than one cycle. Otherwise he wouldn't believe in the 'illusion' that he can destroy Zion with the codes from Morpheus. The only possibility could be that Smith gets reloaded also and he loses his memory from the past cycle.

I see what you mean here. But now I need to pose another question. Lets just say Smith did exist in the previous iterations and never had his mind wiped, etc. If Smith were aware of the continuous reloading of the Matrix, the previous "Ones", etc, then he is also aware that The One only pops up when Zion needs to be exterminated. IF an Agent were to obtain the codes to Zion's mainframe, hack the system, and destroy Zion before the emergence of The One, would the Matrix itself stay stable? Maybe that's Smith's reasoning.

I'd like to touch on, but not go too off-topic, regarding Brian Takle's theory on machines having the inability to grow. It came to mind when you mentioned the possibility of Smith having his mind wiped with every iteration, and I feel the topic has relevancy here. To be perfectly honest, I've never really been able to get my head around this idea. Maybe it's because I'm human, and growth is a natural thing .

When Smith is torturing Morpheus, he doesn't seem to be the type of guy that is doing this on a whim. He justifies to Morpheus the reasons why he is so tired of up-keeping "this zoo". Actually, Smith seems like he's been stuck in the Matrix for what seems like an eternity. If his mind was wiped with very iteration, and machines themselves cannot grow, why would Smith ever get tired of his duties within the Matrix? Like Ken Wilber says, the previous Ones are just recycling the same crap every iteration. If Agent Smith just did his job in every iteration, there would be no need for him to have his mind wiped. But with the sixth version, enough is enough for both him and the Oracle. Interesting how much mother and son see eye to eye on the matter. But I do wonder what compels them to act on their impulses, if it is not growth.

Vanexel711 wrote:

Well, I wouldn't want to go that far with it, saying it was the work of the 99% counterpart. It's an interesting theory, but not one I personally feel is justified within the films themselves. Maybe I need some more detail on your part to really understand it.

Do you remember what Morpheus said in M1?

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see. Business men, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it"

I think that this saying could be linked to Smith. Normally the blue pills will let them be taken over by an agent --> willing to fight to protect the system. But now, a greater 'army' is needed so more blue pills will allow Smith to fight for them.

It's just like the kid on the schoolground who refuses to join the mass. He has his own clothing style, his own music taste, etc. So he gets bullied at school and he often has to fight to stand for his right. That's the way I see the burly brawl: the expression of the 99% mass trying to force the special kid on the schoolground to either join them or 'die'.

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I will say this, however: you could be onto something greater with that theory. The Architect tells Neo that "the choice" (to stay plugged in or unplug) must be accepted on a near unconscious level. Near unconscious? Could the Architect be alluding to some some form of higher consciousness? After all, this is the Oracle's discovery. Decoding the Archiitect's words into Oracle-speak could mean that "all humans within the Matrix intuitively know they are plugged in at some point in their life, but they make the choice to stay in or reject the system". It would also explain the growth of consciousness/powers of all the unplugged characters. They are, in a sense, closer to their own Self (or soul, etc.). And, with a more freed consciousness, they are able to exercise their abilities more freely within the Matrix. Even moreso, the previous iterations of the Matrix are no place for the emergence of Spirit within the system, and for that reason the 1% are compelled to unplug.

I agree fully with you here! It's indeed the allowance of intuition that creates the systemic anomaly. The intuition is nagging, mostly at a near unconscious level: "this is not who you really are! You are not using your real talents! Wake up man!"

With the first two versions of the Matrix the humans were not allowed to follow their intuition so that made the Matrix crash. Now they are free to follow there intuition, but this still creates unwanted fluctuations simply because the machine world cannot deal with denial of original purpose/function.

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Another idea that sort of ties in with your theory a bit better is saying that Neo is, in a sense, a representative of all humanity, for both Zion and the bluepills. When he destroys/resurrects Smith, this could be seen as humanity on both sides of the fence evolving Smith.

Yes in a way he is. He is the ultimate expression of what goes on in a human mind. With most people these things take place in the subconscious part of the mind or they supress these thoughts/feelings altogehter. But with Neo it is all made on a very conscious level:

-He has to literally fight with his own darker side: Smith
-He has to make the choice on a 100% conscious level: accept the program or not. The choice he has to make at the Architect is the full conscious expression of the choice that each human in the Matrix has to make. In more simple words: it's the full exposure of the 'bug' aka the systemic anomaly. The Architect is the responsible programmer who finally has exposed his 'bug' and tries to deal with it.

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I see what you mean here. But now I need to pose another question. Lets just say Smith did exist in the previous iterations and never had his mind wiped, etc. If Smith were aware of the continuous reloading of the Matrix, the previous "Ones", etc, then he is also aware that The One only pops up when Zion needs to be exterminated. IF an Agent were to obtain the codes to Zion's mainframe, hack the system, and destroy Zion before the emergence of The One, would the Matrix itself stay stable? Maybe that's Smith's reasoning.

Then either Smith is dumb or he is being held in the dark about the rules. No matter if he succeeds to destroy Zion in an early stage, the One will always need to emerge! It's inevitable within the equation of the system.

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I'd like to touch on, but not go too off-topic, regarding Brian Takle's theory on machines having the inability to grow. It came to mind when you mentioned the possibility of Smith having his mind wiped with every iteration, and I feel the topic has relevancy here. To be perfectly honest, I've never really been able to get my head around this idea. Maybe it's because I'm human, and growth is a natural thing .

Machines cannot grow indeed. That's why they need the symbiose with humanity; only when they interact with humanity their AI can grow. Smith has been 'tasting' humans for about 100 years now, by simply taking over their brain on his missions. He has tasted 'the stink' for too long now and he doesn't like it. It has turned him into a 'human' too: his experiences with the human symbiose gave him feelings of frustration and hatered.