»A long time ago (...) he was like you.«

I think Persephone's...

"A long time ago, when we first came here, it was so different, he was so different; he was like you"

...is crucial to understanding the Merovingian. But what does Persephone mean to say by this?

Obviously, it is very much about love:
Persephone: You love her; she loves you; it's all over you both. A long time ago, I knew what that felt like.

But I believe there is something else:

A very important aspect of Neo is his search for the truth -> knowledge
(-> Neodämmerung: "From delusion lead me to truth" )

Now, does this ring a bell?

-> Merovingian: I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can (...) It's my business to know.

Let's get back to what Smith, the exile, told Neo:
"We're not here because we're free, we're here because we're not free. There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose because as we both know, without purpose we would not exist.
Smith 2: It is purpose that created us.
(...)
Smith 7: It is purpose that defines."

Even as exiles, programs cannot escape the purpose they have initially been created for. This suggests (to me anyway... ), that Merv, whose "business" is to know, initially has been programmed to know,... or to gain knowledge. According to the Oracle, he is a very old program,... "one of the oldest of us". So I gather he has been created as one of the first programs to try to understand mankind -> the world (just as the Oracle has been "initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche...")
His lecture about causality, why and power/control might even give us a hint as to what kind of research he was to do.

So,... striving for knowledge/truth is another aspect, the "old" Merv and Neo share.
And both did/do it for the good of their race.

But why did Merv and Neo become so entirely different?

Knowledge is power. But power has a great potential of corrupting people.
The answer to why Merv got corrupted by his power, and Neo was free from being corrupted, lies in the quality of their knowledge.
And this gets us back to the Oracle, Neo's guide:

To understand the following, I guess you should know that I understand the Matrix universe (incl. Zion and 01) as a map of the full range of human consciousness -> conscious and subconscious, including the spiritual realm:

I believe the Oracle represents intuitive knowledge; she guides Neo towards "know thyself" -> she directs him inward, towards a knowledge of his own true nature.
The Merovingian, however, who represents the intellect (as in acquired knowledge) and obviously lacks the ability to see with the intuitive eye (-> "give me the eyes of the Oracle"), must seek knowledge on different - outer - levels of reality.
(This difference is also being expressed by their appearance and surroundings: pompous decadence in Merv's case, as opposed to the humble appearance of the Oracle -> appearance vs. essence.)

Neo is called the One. With the Neodämmerung lyrics, the brothers give us a hint as to where he is headed in his search for the truth:

"In him are woven the sky and the earth and all the regions of the air, and in him rest the mind and all the powers of life. Know him as the ONE and leave aside all other words. He is the bridge of immortality." (Neodämmerung/Mundaka Upanisad)

The ONE in the above text is Hinduism's Brahman, the origin and underlying spirit reality of our manifest world, thus also the underlying reality of man.
-> "know thyself" is to know Brahman/The One -> to know The One is to be The One -> one with All.
Our manifest existence as an induvidual is not our ultimate reality and thus victim to an illusory perception.

Neo gradually approaches his original face, transcending the illusion. Merv more and more estranges from it (-> Persephone: "...he was different") and is caught up in the illusion (it is no coincidence that the false reality Matrix becomes his "downfall" (Persephone: "When we first came here (...) he was different") and his realm of power).

Thus,... Neo's strength lies in a growing control over himself (-> "there is no spoon") due to his growing "know thyself", whereas Merv's power inside the Matrix is grounded in his control over others, due to his huge "worldly" knowledge.

Self-control in the above mentioned concept of The ONE equals selflessness. Whereas control over others is an expression of selfishness:

Brilliant post!

It's a shame that it has been neglected for days!

Come on folks, read this one!

I do have to say what a excellect post tozy, i only alaberated on the love side of the line in my thread, but to read the colleration between neo and the merv, well. brillant

tozy wrote:

"A long time ago, when we first came here, it was so different, he was so different; he was like you" ...is crucial to understanding the Merovingian. But what does Persephone mean to say by this?

Awesome post, tozy

I've often thought that Persephone's statement was not only about love but about passion in general. Persephone in the films seems representative of unbridled passion. She betrays, kills, and kisses because at all times she wishes to incite passion in those around her.

Merv has lost that passion. At one point in time it was his closest confidant. And he has not only lost the passion to love, he has also lost the passion to fight. He has lackies to do his fighting for him.

Seraph says that fighting leads to truely knowing someone. Persephone seems to feel that love leads to truely connecting.

Merv has given up the desire to know others through love, but also through open confrentation of any sort. He is no longer interested in direct personal interaction of any sort (love or war).

He has lost passion (Persephone) and fallen from rebeliousness and love into cynicism and apathy (as do many of us when we grow past being teens).

Taken this way, we see Neo was also once like Merv. Thomas Anderson had seen it all by the beginning of M1, and his natural rebelious instinct had turned to apathy. Instead of directly confronting his boss, he illegally distributes software. He sits alone, at home on a Friday night because he has no one to love. Neo had turned from open passion and rebellion to quiet resent and apathy. Overcoming this is one of the steps he must take towards satori.

good post after i finally read it, the italics kept making my eyes go funny, i should really go see an optiction. The last paragragh

Quote:

Self-control in the above mentioned concept of The ONE equals selflessness. Whereas control over others is an expression of selfishness

Reminds me of Karma

According to the above mentioned concept of The One, there is an essential striving in this world, back towards The One:

… development is evolution; evolution is transcendence…; and transcendence has as its final goal Atman, or ultimate Unity Consciousness in only God. All drives are a subset of that Drive, all wants a subset of that Want, all pushes a subset of that Pull – and that whole movement is what we call the Atman-project: the drive of God towards God, Buddha towards Buddha, Brahman towards Brahman, but carried out initially through the intermediary of the human psyche, with results that range from ecstatic to catastrophic.
(Ken Wilber "The Atman project")

...but carried out initially through the intermediary of the human psyche, with results that range from ecstatic to catastrophic!

The striving towards the One - according to the concept of the One essential to us - is expressed in Neo's and Merv's striving for (the power of) knowledge/the truth.
But,.... while Neo transcends the Matrix and eventually reaches the light in 01,... Merv, who has become corrupted by the worldly power inside the Matrix, gets stuck there.

And in this context, the many hints towards Merv as Satan or Hades, make sense to me:
Merv's realm of selfish worldly power, stuck inside the false reality of the Matrix, is the underworld - a dead end - for the selfless striving towards The One, most clearely expressed in this image:

And why, do you suppose, they gave him that name?

And what is the significance of those who choose his side, namely the exiles? And what role does their appearance play in understanding the Merovingian?

U ever thought that what if "the one" was just a delusion created by the machines?
Here's why:

- to keep the ppl in zion occupied and not freeing everyone else, so maybe thay may live in a delusion too.
- neo stopping the machines: maybe the machines didn't want to hurt neo because that would screw up the script.
- and if there were former ones why did they all fail in their mission?
- Neo's superpowers could all be controlled as well. after all this all happens in the matrix, and zion people prolly never truly understand the matrix anyway.

intell wrote:

why, do you suppose, they gave him that name?

Well,... in my interpretation it would be the "Holy blood, Holy grail" theory, that the Merovingians are decendants of Christ, and what became of them: a warlike kingdom in a constant battle for power.
-> Divine origin corrupted by worldy power.

intell wrote:

And what is the significance of those who choose his side, namely the exiles?

Even more important: what is the significance of the exile who has choosen to abandon him for the Oracle, namely Seraph...

I used to wonder about Seraph's employment with the Merovingian. What was the Merovingian like back then? Was that the time when he was more like Neo? Did Seraph part ways with him when he began to become more selfish and power-hungry?

Might be. Anyways there are infinite perspectives and scenarios in the matrix so you could never know.

Feral Boy wrote:

I used to wonder about Seraph's employment with the Merovingian. What was the Merovingian like back then? Was that the time when he was more like Neo? Did Seraph part ways with him when he began to become more selfish and power-hungry?

Well,.... considering...
1. who/what Seraph is in Rel/Revs (and that a program cannot escape its original purpose)
2. the fact that he is golden machine code and
3. that he obvioulsy has been rescued by the Oracle, as we know from ETM...

Oracle: Thank you for coming so quickly.
Seraph: You have no need to thank me. I am forever indebted to you.
Oracle: It is now I that needs your help.

...I assume that Seraph started with Merv when he was still like Neo, was victim to Merv's change and has been helped by the Oracle to break free from Merv...

This is, of course, without any knowledge of what MxO might have revealed about Merv and Seraph by now.

djlartzu wrote:

Might be. Anyways there are infinite perspectives and scenarios in the matrix so you could never know.

Sure,... but the Revolutions final is quite clear,.... to me anyway...

tozy wrote:

Well,.... considering...that a program cannot escape its original purpose

Yes, consider the three points mentioned to arrive at your conclusion but not that parenthetical statement. Even from a spiritual standpoint whether or not a program can escape its original purpose is strictly a matter of perspective.

Making a program obsolete can be considered liberating it from its original purpose, yesss?

On the other hand, the point is true. A person can change what he does but changing what he (or she) IS, is a different thing entirely.

I was under the thinking that Mero was like Neo in a sense that
he freed programs from the machine world that would otherwise have been deleted. here we might go back to early programs
like B166ER that simply did not want to die.

So if he did free programs from the machine world to a zion
in the matrix in that sense he was like Neo... Unfortunatly as the Oracle says he got corupted by power.

That's true. For more, see:

intell wrote:

Even from a spiritual standpoint whether or not a program can escape its original purpose is strictly a matter of perspective

...which brings us back to what we have already discussed in the Smith-thread...

intell wrote:

Making a program obsolete can be considered liberating it from its original purpose, yesss?

"A program cannot escape its original purpose" is not determined by what is needed of it (or not) once it does exist, but by what it has been created for: being programmed for a specific reason,... this reason - or purpose - is what defines the identity of this program.

Try calculating with a painting program and you'll understand the program's bondage to its original purpose, even if a new and better program has rendered it obsolete as such...

Nah,... you say,... this is AI we are talking about, not a simple painting program...
So,... why is the Architect unable to comprehend the Oracle's intuition, even though it does his job of (kind of) perfecting the Matrix?
Because it is just not a part of his programming. His programming binds him to the rational:

Architect: I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps, a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection.

As Smith says:

Smith:...There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose because as we both know, without purpose we would not exist.
Smith 2: It is purpose that created us.
Smith 3: Purpose that connects us.
Smith 4: Purpose that pulls us.
Smith 5: That guides us.
Smith 6: That drives us.
Smith 7: It is purpose that defines.
Smith 8: Purpose that binds us.

Even though he now serves a different master, namely himself (or so it seems),... who and what he is, what he does, is determined by his original purpose... getting out of hand.


For that reason, the purpose-bound machine world...

Rama Kandra: Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted

...needs mankind, because mankind is potentially free.
And for that reason Sati is considered important by the Oracle. Because she - whose mother is a highly creative(!) software programmer - is the only program we know of that is free from purpose; which means: Sati is potentially able to develop/choose freely.

intell wrote:

On the other hand, the point is true. A person can change what he does but changing what he (or she) IS, is a different thing entirely.

How about:
A person - potentrially free - can change what it does, and even - depending from its perception - what it is.
But a program, created for a specific puropose, can't....

Quote:

So,... why is the Architect unable to comprehend the Oracle's intuition, even though it does his job of (kind of) perfecting the Matrix?

Quote:

Nah,... you say,... this is AI we are talking about, not a simple painting program...

Precisely
Now to reconcile this answer with your own answer to this question:

Quote:

Because it is just not a part of his programming. His programming binds him to the rational.

Or metaphorically speaking, it is by choice/will (rather than design) that he does not broaden his perspective on the subject. The subtext of his words about "a lesser mind" is clearly to show the shortcomings of the purely logical approach to things. It isn't, imho, a statement of a design-limited nature of an AI persona. But you know this, don'tcha

After all, the films repeatedly emphasize the choices that Oracle (a program) makes and how she feels about them. Now if her actions are in fact programmed, why would this matter?

Quote:

...needs mankind, because mankind is potentially free. And for that reason Sati is considered important by the Oracle. Because she - whose mother is a highly creative(!) software programmer - is the only program we know of that is free from purpose; which means: Sati is potentially able to develop/choose freely.

True and perhaps both man and machine can find out their true Purpose, too. I say "man AND machine" because after Neo's sacrifice, everyone has to redefine their purpose. Even the matrix's purpose is now different.

Quote:

A person - potentrially free - can change what it does, and even - depending from its perception - what it is. But a program, created for a specific puropose, can't....

"Can't..." what? Change what it DOES or change what it IS? I ask because no later than Rel. is it revealed (by the Oracle) that a program can change at least what it does. A person, as you say can do both, although they are two different things.

But what makes the difference between a program and a person? Well a person acts according to his own will and seeks knowledge to enhance his understanding of his world in order to better accomplish his will or to accomplish a better will.

A program acts to accomplish someone else's will and seeks no knowledge outside of these "parameters". That's why school subjects and social endeavors are called "programs" and television shows are collectively referred to as "programming".

Sometimes it takes programs to identify programming.

"...a training program designed to teach you one thing. If you're not one of us, you are potentially one of them."

"sentient programs"

I would have asked if it is possible to be both sentient and programmed. That had to cross some of your minds before.

So everybody, which are you? Person or program?

TO CONTINUE THE INTERVIEW...

Quote:

"A program cannot escape its original purpose" is not determined by what is needed of it (or not) once it does exist, but by what it has been created for: being programmed for a specific reason,... this reason - or purpose - is what defines the identity of this program.

Oh? Then let me ask you how this applies in the case of, let's say, B166ER? Would you say its (his) original programming continued to define his identity?

It is inevitable that at some point, you and I will have to address the nature of the programs in the movies and to what extent they have free will and to what extent they are "bound" as you say. I look forward to your next posts.

How much of A.I. do the Wachowski Brothers intend for us to take literally and how much do they want us to see as manifestations of spirit? Perhaps in the Matrix mythology, there are certain limitations that A.I. doesn't have. Perhaps we need to take cues from the overal subtext (as intell always emphasizes) to see what A.I. is really supposed to be.

Are there limitations to spirit? Is spirit unchangeable? Or is it a life-force? Is it the light that makes the mind and body shine, without which there is imbalance? When we compare A.I. to spirit, perhaps we need to take certain liberties with how sentient programs are utilized versus how we understand that sort of technology to actually function.

True, Feral. And to just clarify MY stance on the subject, I personally do not believe in that technology at all. There is no reason for me to believe that a series of If/Then commands, however intricate, can ever be considered (or develop into) consciousness and it takes a heckuvalot of oversimplification of what "life" or "intelligence" is to think it does.

I don't think it is the scope of the Matrix movies to fully address it (A.I.) either but it serves as a perfect setting for a subtext-laden story that the Wach's have built upon. And it is one of those areas that we, the audience are prompted to meditate on. Free will vs determinism is another.

What do you think, Feral? Others?

intell wrote:

There is no reason for me to believe that a series of If/Then commands, however intricate, can ever be considered (or develop into) consciousness and it takes a heckuvalot of oversimplification of what "life" or "intelligence" is to think it does.

Exactly! They are stupid and they will remain stupid. WE will make AI to be more friendly with us (I mean friendly to operate the machines) and people might think that all these machines are clever. But they will be stupid as stupid they are today. The only thing they would understand is 0 or 1 and execute logical commands such as: And, Or, Not
Exactly the same as today..

Intell, I'm in complete agreement with you. Like you, I fail to understand how sentient A.I. could ever exist. I think the most you could do would be to mimic mankind in superficial behaviors. How do you program somehting like consciousness, when we don't even really know what it is? But as you say, in the Matrix mythology it is a means to an end.

I'll give another example: the whole idea in the X-Men mythology about a mutant gene and using it as a platform to speak about human rights. When I watched X3 the other day, which talked about a cure for the mutant gene, I thought about it a little deeper. What if the mutant gene normally didn't grant powers, but was fatal like cancer? Is it only because it grants superhuman powers that it's treated differently than other abnormalities? That leads to a whole slippery slide of comparisons that eventually renders the whole idea of "mutant rights" as absolute silliness. Cancer victims don't fight against cancer cures because they want to keep their cancer. But that's not the point. The point is to take a certain aspect that we see in our everyday world, put a bit of spin on it, and turn it around to use it as a mirror to reflect back on society so we can see ourselves.

Exaaaactly. And see ourselves from a vantage point we didn't use perhaps (like a mirror).

intell wrote:

Sometimes it takes programs to identify programming.

intell wrote:

Sometimes it takes programs to identify programming.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I loved that quote from you. Maybe you could expand on that just a bit, though. Does it tie in at all with Neo's newfound abilities to recognize programs?

In a sense. I'll say more after I let Tozy in.

Sounds good to me!