»Dancing with the Truth – Civilization and The Matrix«

1.
Likewise, trying to decide if the “real” exists as a “matrix in a matrix” won’t help either. However, proving this will take more time than I wish to spend on this post. I’ll come back to this.

This actually is just another form of nonsense as you pointed it out earlier. Reality is reality and there is no "cogito ergo sum" about it.

2.
But if you really want to understand the Matrix Trilogy, you’ll have to move beyond the direct analogies and move to the more complicated ones that the movies actually deal with.

This is correct, just lay down the “matrix within the matrix” or the “brains-in-vats” nonsense. The movie is a fiction. Artists use lies to tell the truth as V said.

3.
I want you to understand that the Matrix Trilogy serves as a FINGER pointing to the MOON.

By using this, there could be misconception that the Matrix philosophy is pointing to ideals. This is not correct. However, in this way, human beings have always been obsessed with pointing to ideals and the miss the mark. This system created civilization as you will state the effects later on. Most are not human beings, they are simple poor imitations of their own ideals. That is why the Oracle decided to unbalance the system.

4.
Our society has trained us to constantly identify with our perceptions. But the perceptions and the thing perceived have no connection.

Reminds me of Immanuel Kant’s Noumena (the object-in-itself) and Phenomena (the object as a spectacle).

5.
Why are they stuck?

When a man is stuck in the matrix, it implies that he is stuck to an illusionary reality instead of going to a real one. If matrix is Civilization and we are stuck in it, what is the real reality above civilization?

6.
The world was made for man and man was made to rule it and derive pleasure from it.

Sounds to me that this means freedom, the very essence of man as human and above civilization already. I a man will understand this in its real sense, then he is actually free for the boundaries of civilization (that believe your number 3) have already been destroyed.

7.
Civilization is the TRUE way to live and ALL other people must live this way or be killed.

Exactly the reason why people are stuck. Civilization is made up of matrices of laws and regulations to ensure order and control--systems of control.

8.
But they are obviously absurd. They lead to the death of all life on earth, including human life, because life does not live by eating itself endlessly. We require the ecosystem to survive. Endlessly eating it kills our life support system. This is why the world of the future has no life on it. The sky has been raped, the world hollowed out, and all life dead with only robots running free. But those with eyes see it already in our world today.

But isn’t this the meaning of getting out of the Matrix? To live in a life where the only real problem, as Neo puts it, is choice.

9.
“The matrix is the wool pulled before our eyes.”

To keep you from seeing the truth and the truth is there is something terribly wrong with this world.

Excellent and extremely enlightening post, Virus_Runner 17!

This helps me to see a few things clearly.

Now a few more things are starting to make sense.

virus_runner17 wrote:

3. I want you to understand that the Matrix Trilogy serves as a FINGER pointing to the MOON. By using this, there could be misconception that the Matrix philosophy is pointing to ideals. This is not correct. However, in this way, human beings have always been obsessed with pointing to ideals and the miss the mark. This system created civilization as you will state the effects later on. Most are not human beings, they are simple poor imitations of their own ideals. That is why the Oracle decided to unbalance the system. 4. Our society has trained us to constantly identify with our perceptions. But the perceptions and the thing perceived have no connection. Reminds me of Immanuel Kant’s Noumena (the object-in-itself) and Phenomena (the object as a spectacle).

I mean exactly that distinction. However Kant didn't have a computational worldview and so the monad space got mixed with the functional space in some of the arguments that came from his writings. In essence, this means that he built a poor model for time and existence. In fact, attempting to build any model of this at all leads you into trouble, if you are an animal like humans. (Note I mean A Time here, obviously B time is well handled by physics).

I consider this key to my argument as it is the very fundamental thought structures of Civilization that we impress on our children that is the foundation of what "The Matrix" really means. With this logic, we do not fall into any "matrix in matrix in matrix" style arguments, which as you point out, miss the entire point of the movies. But to really "see" the Matrix for yourself you have to have a very objective attitude about beliefs and thoughts. By identifying the basic memitic structures that underlay all civilization, you can begin to "see the Matrix."

virus_runner17 wrote:

5. Why are they stuck? When a man is stuck in the matrix, it implies that he is stuck to an illusionary reality instead of going to a real one. If matrix is Civilization and we are stuck in it, what is the real reality above civilization?

You cannot have experience outside of time. Civilization is a method of training human animals to become efficient "time-binders." So we cannot say that any "reality" exists beyond civilization because outside of the time-binding structures, "existence/experience" doesn't happen. This isn't to say that an "unplugged human" doesn't have a physical body that continues on, only that we can never KNOW anything about that world. Our knowledge should be in service to whatever that "reality" is. Instead, we put the cart before the horse and expect reality to fit into our expectations. This is the fundamental cause of "the desert of the real"

virus_runner17 wrote:

6. The world was made for man and man was made to rule it and derive pleasure from it. Sounds to me that this means freedom, the very essence of man as human and above civilization already. I a man will understand this in its real sense, then he is actually free for the boundaries of civilization (that believe your number 3) have already been destroyed.

An endless struggle against nature does not sound like freedom to me. I personally doubt that a "left hand path" exists whereby you can free yourself by using the rules of "the matrix" to disprove the matrix. *grin* Anyway, the idea is much more basic than the point I think you wanted to make. People feel better and more important than nature. People feel that they should get to choose which species live and which species die. I mean "rule over" in this sense.

virus_runner17 wrote:

7. Civilization is the TRUE way to live and ALL other people must live this way or be killed. Exactly the reason why people are stuck. Civilization is made up of matrices of laws and regulations to ensure order and control--systems of control.

Exactly. These systems of control have basic, unspoken premises as their foundation. These premises permeate the civilized culture. But we have a hard time of understanding how these things can also be part of our worldview at the same time. This is because we mistake our selfish experience as reality.

virus_runner17 wrote:

But isn’t this the meaning of getting out of the Matrix? To live in a life where the only real problem, as Neo puts it, is choice.

We already live in a place where choice is the only problem. *grin* Life doesn't have choices. It has action/reactions. We could say it is a stimulus/response that has no space or time between it. As soon as a "choice" arises we have a problem. We have this problem because a "choice" could only arise by us separating ourselves from the universe, then from us looking back in to play a symbol game.

That you think "getting out of the Matrix" has meaning says to me that you haven't fully come to grips with the actual situation you are in. By definition, "getting out" has no meaning at all. If it did have a meaning, then we would have found "the meaning of life." But as I point out, life is just a action/reaction and meaning comes from symbolic manipulation, which takes time. The universe will always race ahead of meaning, because it happens before meaning. Meaning only takes place inside the universe, through what we call time. There are lots and lots of things that are true for no reason. Any true "meaning of life" must contain those things to fully explain life. However, these things have no meaning and must be expressed in infinite form. Hence, we can create no finite theory of everything. Life has no meaning. Nor does getting "out of the Matrix."

However, when you are "in the Matrix," you do a terrible disservice to your body and you harm the living ecosystem. So we have a paradox. We can see the "meaning" behind all the good things that would happen to the living community if "we unplugged." However, we also know that we will not find any meaning through this act either. In fact, we won't get anything out of it at all.

virus_runner17 wrote:

“The matrix is the wool pulled before our eyes.” To keep you from seeing the truth and the truth is there is something terribly wrong with this world.

I very much agree.

I just read entropyfails orignal post starting this thread and as others have commented ~right on!
"those with eyes see it already in our world today."
However, what you didn’t mention, so I will is that the Movie portrays an answer: Neo

It’s the question that drives us:
Essentially it points toward a bright and hopeful future, sure & certain based on what Neo achieved ~he’s the Reason people are now freed (if they want it). But to understand that freedom we must first understand Him, i.e. ‘The Matrix Path of Neo’ ~he’s the model/pattern etc.

For us to begin to understand we are in a matrix, a False World, we must first begin to recognise there is a Real One. Those waking are waking ~to something, the Feeling & conviction of which grows stronger than mere senses that entrapped us, previously robed of Spirit.

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In fact, deletion of information is the only process in a computer that actually requires energy. Properly configured physical systems do not require energy to run computations themselves.

Excuse me? Why are CPUs rated at power consumption when idle and power consumtion when maxed out then? How is it that only deletion requires energy? There are two basic types of RAM, static and dynamic. Static RAM involves alternate states of a set of transistors which are always drawing current. Dynamic RAM uses microscopic capacitors that leak and must be recharged, so there are circuits constantly running to do these periodic recharges. Most likely if the RAM is filled with zeroes it draws the least power but never zero.

Quote:

Of course, modern computers are entirely based on the deletion of information

I don't understand that statement at all. The computers are almost all variations on von Neumann Machines.

psikeyhackr wrote:

Excuse me? Why are CPUs rated at power consumption when idle and power consumtion when maxed out then? How is it that only deletion requires energy?

Because our current systems do not run at their quantum theoretical maximum. Current computers delete information EVERY TIME they perform any other operation. However, if you design a computer cleverly, you can make it in such a way that it never required energy unless you delete information.

Google link below

Quote:

I realize you do not understand this. Your lack of understanding does not change its truth however.

Your claim to understand it doesn't make it true either. At best it is theoretical never never land nonsense. The data is manipulated in the CPU. Energy is required to transport it to and from the CPU.

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I see no difference between the Islamic system and the Western ones.

Explain that to people willing to kill each other over the differences. Since the matrices are in their minds their's is the only perception of difference that matters. NOT YOURS!

Quote:

My hope is that by pointing directly to the meme's that run the real world "matrix", we can "unplug" people and get them living their own lives, instead of the ones that were "coded" for them.

What does living their own live mean? How do they unplug from the economic matrix? How do they pay their rent or mortgage? How do they "unplug?" Morpheus already said it:

Quote:

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

psik

psikeyhackr wrote:

Your claim to understand it doesn't make it true either. At best it is theoretical never never land nonsense. The data is manipulated in the CPU. Energy is required to transport it to and from the CPU.

So as opposed to reading the material you decided to post your poorly formulated ideas?

I didn't come up with any of this. The best physicists of our time (you know, the ones who helped make computers) said this. And it makes sense if you have a through understanding of computation and thermodynamics. I guess you don’t want to understand these things. Your loss.

To everyone else, psi's ideas about computation couldn't be more wrong. In fact, I believe they qualify for the most insulting of scientific comments, "Not even wrong."

psikeyhackr wrote:

Quote: I see no difference between the Islamic system and the Western ones. Explain that to people willing to kill each other over the differences. Since the matrices are in their minds their's is the only perception of difference that matters. NOT YOURS!

People love to kill each other over superficial differences. It doesn't make the difference any less superficial. I agree that the perception of difference does matter. But the fundamental point in my view is that the 'engine' that they run on is exactly the same.

I'm not explaining this to a group of Islamists or Christians. I thought I was explaining this to people who want to see beyond the matrix. Maybe I was wrong about people here.

psikeyhackr wrote:

Quote: My hope is that by pointing directly to the meme's that run the real world "matrix", we can "unplug" people and get them living their own lives, instead of the ones that were "coded" for them. What does living their own live mean? How do they unplug from the economic matrix? How do they pay their rent or mortgage? How do they "unplug?" Morpheus already said it: Quote: Morpheus:You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged.

Well, one day you may wish to unplug yourself. In that case, I hope that my words can help provide some light to you. If you wish to throw them out, feel free! They were given freely and they can be tossed just as freely.

And as long as we are quoting The Matrix, let me respond to your questions, "I didn't come to tell you how this will end. I came to tell you how it will begin."

Quote:

The best physicists of our time (you know, the ones who helped make computers) said this.

Next year von Neumann will have been dead for 50 years.

If you think everyone with a physics degree is brilliant, that is your business but why does stuff like this happen then?

In February of 1999, the month before The Matrix came out, I first posted this on a website:

spectacle.org...

It didn't have the first 2 paragraphs at the time because I couldn't think of anything to write. A computer scientst who agreed with it called economic wargame a metaphor and inspired what I wrote. Let the games begin since we are stuck in the Roman cultural matix.

psik

PS - I've added a little more detaiil since then.

discussions.pbs.org...

psikeyhackr wrote:

Next year von Neumann will have been dead for 50 years. If you think everyone with a physics degree is brilliant, that is your business but why does stuff like this happen then? We have this publish or perish problem. People will come up with stuff that requires PhDs and 50 tons of brain sweat to figure out is wrong. I'm a show me kind of guy. Mathematics ain't enough.

I feel sad that you didn't even attempt to read and understand the papers. As for experimental verification, the early quantum computing devices that we have made have proven the theory. More verification will come over time. But if you think deeply as to why information happens inside an entropic universe, you'll find some VERY interesting ideas.

I never said all physicists have a brilliant mind. You put those words into my mouth. I'm saying that the people who really pushed computation forward all agree on the thermodynamic basis of information. And if you research the ideas, you find that they make good sense.

These are really fascinating and wonderful papers that can help us understand our world, computation, and even our own minds. I hope you reconsider studying the foundations of Computer Science. Otherwise, you can repeat the name von Neumann another 30 times like the repetition of his name means something. *grin* I know all about von Neumann, he was an awesome guy.

psikeyhackr wrote:

It didn't have the first 2 paragraphs at the time because I couldn't think of anything to write. A computer scientst who agreed with it called economic wargame a metaphor and inspired what I wrote. Let the games begin since we are stuck in the Roman cultural matix. psik

I agree with you there! As Philip K Dick said, "The Empire Never Ended."

But from my viewpoint, those are the systems ON TOP of the basic civilization vision. Unless we change the basic premise, we just end up with different versions of the same thing.

Hmmmm.

intell wrote:

Hmmmm.

Heya intel!

Did you have a question or a comment on the topic? Please chime in!

Just finding the interchange interesting. Long time, EntropyFails. And Hello to Psikeyhackr.

As an aside, I might add that the reason memes permeate and influence society is because (1.) People really feel they don't have a clue as to how to live their lives and what is really important. And they probably don't. (2.) Most, if not all, memes are based on an egocentric focus. Example...if you talk this way, dress this way, you're more of a man, important, or successful, etc.

The pressure to conform includes punishment or rewards that exist only in the ego. And thus the focus is already in the "wrong" place. So I guess the question is, do you think helping people to break free from these things will require a serious shift in focus?

Greetings intell, how's life in the Big Matrix?
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That is the curious thing about von Neumann. In four years at IBM I never saw the term "von Neumann machine" on any documentation. I never heard anyone use it. I didn't learn it until years after I quit. Since I had built my first computer in '78 and spent hours pouring over the schematics I understood how they worked. And all of the different brands and models did basically the same thing. When I finally learned there was a already a specific name for it I found it very strange that I hadn't run across it already. I have asked plenty of poeple in the computer biz about it since then. Most don't recognize it. It is like the industry is mostly composed of people that have memorized a certain range of info and are just interested in making money with that.

I have searched a number of times on the internet and though it is easy to find the term used if you search on it, I haven't found a single site with a good explanation and what I regard as a good diagram. I had to make my own.

psikeyhackr wrote:

There is too much deliberate mystification in computing. I have heard about quantum computing for years and haven't heard anything firm enough to nail down yet. If you can trust people that put out stuff like this that is your business. psik

Hey Psi!

I don't see how my posts mystify anything. I'm talking about real world equations and solid explanations of entropy. These are not in dispute.

As for quantum computers, we have only created ones of a very few bits so far. But the fact that even the 1-bit versions of these machines operate along the laws of thermodynamic information adds substantial validation to the theory.

And it really makes sense if you understand information in the Shannon sense!

As for von Neumann, you cannot get a computer science degree anymore without understanding him and his contributions to computers. I'm surprised that he wasn't talked about more during the early period of computers, especially seeing as he made the map!

Anyway, the current configurations of von Neumann engines do require lots of energy. The datapaths from your figures delete the quantum information contained in them every time they move any data around. But this doesn't mean that all computation requires energy.

Computation is some very wierd stuff, however. Turing and Godel show that well! *grin*

intell wrote:

Just finding the interchange interesting. Long time, EntropyFails. And Hello to Psikeyhackr. The pressure to conform includes punishment or rewards that exist only in the ego. And thus the focus is already in the "wrong" place. So I guess the question is, do you think helping people to break free from these things will require a serious shift in focus?

Intel,

I agree that the reason that "memes" have gone astray is due to our egocentric focus. Ultimately, the foundations of civilization is the meme of the ego! (I'm perfect and should live forever) They are the same thing!

So by removing the civilized memes we can start to root out the DEEPER memes of what we call "the human experience." Getting through that will definitely require a shift from the mundane focus in life to a sense of wonderment about reality. I saw "Adaptation" last night and I think that movie shows that point very well.

I'm not certain that our "want to be free" alone is enough. It will probably take a worldwide understanding of how close we are to killing off all life on Earth to "wake people up." It is one of those things that is beyond the ego's power to accomplish. (Ego hates things it cannot control!)

Ultimately, in my view, Ego is the computational result of a quirk in the human brain. It is not a "natural" quirk, you have to be taught it inside of civilization. (see the "wild children" who can never learn recursive logic to understand why) Eventually, it destroys itself because it cares only for itself. Nothing in nature is separated no matter how much the ego protests otherwise!

entropyfails wrote:

Ultimately, in my view, Ego is the computational result of a quirk in the human brain. It is not a "natural" quirk, you have to be taught it inside of civilization. (see the "wild children" who can never learn recursive logic to understand why) Eventually, it destroys itself because it cares only for itself. Nothing in nature is separated no matter how much the ego protests otherwise!

That being the case, what do you think the movies are saying about how to overcome this, and what does the overt spirituality of the movies indicate?