»The Spoon«

I'm sure this quetsion has been asked already, but I'm to lazy to look for it.

What does the Spoon mean in M1?
Potentional: Do not try and bend the spoon, thats impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth
Neo: What truth?
Potentional: That there is no spoon. Then you will realize that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

And in M2. How did this teaching of the One reach all the way to Zion to Neo?

Basiclly the spoon is a metaphor.

"That there is no spoon. Then you will realize that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. "

it means that you will or can do something, that you think that you can or could do.

well thats how i see it anyway.

Quote:

it means that you will or can do something, that you think that you can or could do.

Which, unless i havent grassed this, you cant normally do

The spoon is not important, Neo is. There is no spoon, nor any room they are sitting in. Nothing is being bent because the spoon does not exist. Only Neo's perception of the spoon exists. If Neo can realign that perception, he will find the spoon bent.

When the Kid gives him the spoon in M2 he says, "A gift from one of the orphans." So the child in M1 who imparts the lesson of the spoon has it redelivered to Neo in Zion. I take it to be a reminder to Neo. A reminder that he must continue to remember he only bends himself on this path, the world merely bends in response.

Exactly CaptPostMod.

And would you say that the W's in putting that point in Reloaded and at that part of it are giving a hint that if Neo is to really reach the end of his path, a change in perception on his part is needed/coming?

The dish ran away with the spoon....ROTFL

CaptPostMod wrote:

The spoon is not important, Neo is. There is no spoon, nor any room they are sitting in. Nothing is being bent because the spoon does not exist. Only Neo's perception of the spoon exists. If Neo can realign that perception, he will find the spoon bent.

Excellent.

Shocking to think I thought it was more complicated that that.

It is a continuation of what Morpheus was telling him in the Dojo.

"Do you think that is air your breathing?"

As soon as Neo understands there is no spoon, room, city, air, world (Matrix created) around him the better.

Now, how do the W's apply that to the real world?

CaptPostMod wrote:

Only Neo's perception of the spoon exists. If Neo can realign that perception, he will find the spoon bent

So in other words, Neo is bending his perception of the spoon, right?

There is no spoon there.

RodBell wrote:

There is no spoon there.

I know, but Neo still perceives it, like all people in the matrix percieve and experience the world around them eventhough it doesen't really exist, but perhaps saying that Neo is bending his understanding of the non-existing spoon would be a better way of putting it, I don't know.

"Changing his perception/awareness/understanding of things" is more like it.

RodBell wrote:

CaptPostMod wrote: The spoon is not important, Neo is. There is no spoon, nor any room they are sitting in. Nothing is being bent because the spoon does not exist. Only Neo's perception of the spoon exists. If Neo can realign that perception, he will find the spoon bent. Excellent. Shocking to think I thought it was more complicated that that. It is a continuation of what Morpheus was telling him in the Dojo. "Do you think that is air your breathing?" As soon as Neo understands there is no spoon, room, city, air, world (Matrix created) around him the better.

It is more complicated than that. Anyone care to explain to me then, if it simply a matter of will and knowledge then why is it that all the redpills (especially Trinity) can't do what Neo can do? Anyone?

Because it is not as simple as choice alone.

Anyone here dream of becoming an astronaut or a famous actor when they were a kid? How many people do you think live in LA and dilude themselves into thinking that if they just hang in there long enough, that they'll make it cause "God gave them the talent and the will!" I'm telling you, it's quite a few. And 90% of them or more never make it.

Common sense tells us that a legless man can not simply get up and walk out of a room just because he wills himself to. You don't get to do whatever you want in this life and neither do even the most enlightened people in the matrix. The world and each individual have their limits.

<insert trite quote from Morpheus about bending some rules and breaking others but not solving how or why a specific person can bend some and break others in differing instances>

There's something else. Sorry, wish the answer was simpler.

<<EDIT for grammar. Dilude instead of dilute.>>

The prophecy.

Sorry Aether, but I disagree slightly the road to that those follow who become truely enlightened would allow the ability within the Matrix to realise that there is nothing solid/gas/water in there.

That the rules set in place via the Matrix cannot just be broken, but the pieces thrown upon the floor and danced upon unitl they are nothing but green dust.

One of the main examples of this is that Neo has the ability to fly, sans plane, handglider or the use of a trebuchet. Neos journey was showing that you could achieve anything knowing that nothing in there was physically real.

Perhaps Morpheus came out with his speech for this is however as his road to true enlightenment had taken him to what he believed the end (as he had found 'The One'), he stopped with this belief that some rules cannot be truely broken within the Matrix.

Aether wrote:

It is more complicated than that. Anyone care to explain to me then, if it simply a matter of will and knowledge then why is it that all the redpills (especially Trinity) can't do what Neo can do? Anyone?

Not will and knowledge, rather perception.

When Neo returns to the Matrix he knows that it is a virtual world, but still he perceives it as real; will cannot change that.
But realigning his perception can.

Think of the Matrix as similar to the mind.
You feel attachment to your parents, your partner, money etc? Buddism teaches that there is no attachment,... it's a matter of perception.

RodBell wrote:

Sorry Aether, but I disagree slightly the road to that those follow who become truely enlightened would allow the ability within the Matrix to realise that there is nothing solid/gas/water in there.

Yeah, that's true. Did you disagree with me yet?

RodBell wrote:

That the rules set in place via the Matrix cannot just be broken, but the pieces thrown upon the floor and danced upon unitl they are nothing but green dust.

There was only one person shown to have the ability to do that though. Did you disagree with me yet?

RodBell wrote:

One of the main examples of this is that Neo has the ability to fly, sans plane, handglider or the use of a trebuchet. Neos journey was showing that you could achieve anything knowing that nothing in there was physically real.

Well, it is a metaphor for that BUT you're ignoring the fact that only two people was shown to able to do ANYTHING and Smith (who's one of them) didn't even get to that level until he had assimilated numerous other people/programs into his own program.

So back to my original question... Then why is it that certain other red pills (and even Smith) who KNEW it was actually possible to break these rules (they didn't just perceive they knew) by seeing Neo do it, couldn't do the same things themselves?

Is it because they all believed he was The One and hence they believed they were not capable? The answer to that question is "no." It was hammered in, time and again, that not all of them believed he was truly The One but no one else was shown flying around. Hell, even Smith (interstingly) couldn't do it until the end of Revelations. Care to explain any of that?

RodBell wrote:

Perhaps Morpheus came out with his speech for this is however as his road to true enlightenment had taken him to what he believed the end (as he had found 'The One'), he stopped with this belief that some rules cannot be truely broken within the Matrix.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with your statement. That is definitely possible. I would argue that enlightment is not necessarily found at the limit of one's perceived purpose but Morpheus definitely could have felt that way. I don't necessarily think influenced his speech at all but might, all the same, have just been an extension of his belief in his own abilities.

tozy wrote:

Not will and knowledge, rather perception. When Neo returns to the Matrix he knows that it is a virtual world, but still he perceives it as real; will cannot change that. But realigning his perception can. Think of the Matrix as similar to the mind. You feel attachment to your parents, your partner, money etc? Buddism teaches that there is no attachment,... it's a matter of perception.

I agree with the basic premise but you're focusing in too narrowly on the a single aspect. You didn't answer my question. Many red pills realigned their perception, so why weren't they able to do the same things he was? You are correct about Buddhism but remember that EVERY SINGLE RED PILL was aware of that distinction yet still could not do the same things as many other people/programs in the matrix.

Moreover, why even have the concept of The One? Is that another control mechanism created to make red pills think that Neo is special so they believe they are not capable of the same things? Because if it's simply a matter of perception realignment then literally ANYONE in the matrix should have been capable of doing what Neo does.

Even so, wouldn't it stand to reason that if this were true, Smith (once disconnected from the system) should have been able to do everything Neo could ever even dream of doing immediately? Why even bother with assimilating everyone and everything if all people/programs are capable of all things in the matrix? He doesn't have a perception problem, in fact, his perspective is clearer from the beginning than Neo's.

What I'm saying overall though is that the mind can not explain all things in the Matrix just as it can not in the real world. Morpheus's speech is spot on: some rules can be bent, some can be broken and quite frankly, you'll never know the difference until you try to push the boundaries. But as Merv accruately pointed out, Morpheus's speech is completely without knowledge of the "why" some rules have differing levels of breakability amonst differing levels amongst differing people, which is where TRUE POWER comes from.

My bad I miss read, I thought there was a disagreement.

I see the fact that others cannot fly around due to those that believe, see the fact that there is only one 'One' so the put in the rule that all be it the Matrix is not there only the One can achieve such feats.

There only belief is stopping their growth and ending their own path.

Those that believe in the One believe only the one can achieve such lofty (sic) heights, whilst those that don't have the belief , they see it but for some reason do not believe it or see it as a trick (methinks)

Edited due to me leaving something in

aether wrote:

I agree with the basic premise but you're focusing in too narrowly on the a single aspect. You didn't answer my question. Many red pills realigned their perception, so why weren't they able to do the same things he was? You are correct about Buddhism but remember that EVERY SINGLE RED PILL was aware of that distinction yet still could not do the same things as many other people/programs in the matrix. Moreover, why even have the concept of The One? Is that another control mechanism created to make red pills think that Neo is special so they believe they are not capable of the same things? Because if it's simply a matter of perception realignment then literally ANYONE in the matrix should have been capable of doing what Neo does.

Honestly, this is a good focal point, I believe.

What is the matrix? And, What is NEO/the One? (For Tozy to answer you, she will need to get into part 2 of the essay in her signature.)

RodBell wrote:

My bad I miss read, I thought there was a disagreement.

I think the only way in which we might disagree is that this explanation is the only logical or plausible one that fits the facts.

I believe this is one possible explanation of many. Especially when one takes the Buddhism metaphor to its furthest possible extreme.

Buddhists believe that not only is there no world but also that you can not escape from the trap of the world until you accept that even the self is an illusion and not just the world around you. Letting go of the self is the only way to move onto Nirvana. This is also part of the basics of stoicism (the only western mindset to feel this way me thinks).

With that in mind, I believe another possible explanation (and one that I'm not sure I've seen anywhere else but may exist somewhere cause I haven't done my due dilligence) goes beyond the Matrix in a Matrix theory to just say that Neo is the only human being in the entire thing. Everything else is a program.

The power plant as well as the matrix and everything else may actually be true and the world of Zion may actually occur but that potentially "The One" is a metaphor for a seperate instance of the software running in a disconnected mode for each and every person in the Matrix.

Cause let's face it, why would the computers be stupid enough to network all of the humans together when they can just fool everyone into thinking they're not alone. (anyone watch Battlestar Gallactica?)

The purpose of the "The One" simulation is to get everyone to struggle and expend more mental and (try to expend) more physical energy so that they remain healthy, do not atrophy and produce more body heat than if they were just idle in the pod.

Given I've just advanced that theory though, it doesn't mean that many MANY other explanations are not as plausible. I'm just illustrating the point that there are many explanations which fit the facts - just as in real life. Some people are Buddhists, some are Aetheists, some are Agnostics and even other are Christian. It is the intent of the material to make all of these explanations possible.

EDIT: for spelling and grammar that stood out

aether wrote:

Some people are Buddhists, some are Aetheists, some are Agnostics and even other are Christian. It is the intent of the material to make all of these explanations possible.

To show what all these have in common is more likely.

The mistake of people today, is to believe that all these are different explanations and that theywere just pulled out the air just to have something no one else thought up (like your explanation). It's like people who tell you that we are smarter than the ancients because they didn't have cell phones and toaster ovens LOL!

I read some creative ideas above, I'd like to add to it by saying I think the kid is saying it is the individual who changes perception overcomes the impossible. What I find true brilliance of this dialog is the fact that what the boy says is somewhat in line with scientific principle. There is no spoon! Only billions and billions of atoms clustered together! It has no importance, it is the individual that is of importance!