»sati the next architect?«

Given that the other thread is linked here now, I thought we should give this thread a bump

I'm moving some of the posts from the old Sati thread over here by request so that this discussion can continue

intell wrote:

Her cipher. Yes, of course, pardon the omission. I think you mean Sati as the "widow" from Hinduism.

Why not the step on The Path that is named sati?

Wikipedia wrote:

The Noble Eightfold Path is essentially a practical guide of ethics, mental rehabilitation and mind deconditioning, and is believed, by Buddhists, to result in an end to dukkha, or suffering, which is a goal that has informed and driven the entire Buddhist tradition since its inception 2500 years ago... [One step on The Path is] Right mindfulness (sammā-sati), also translated as "right memory", together with right concentration, is concerned broadly with the practice of Buddhist meditation. Roughly speaking, "mindfulness" refers to the practice of keeping the mind alert to phenomena as they are affecting the body and mind. In the Magga-vibhanga Sutta, this aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path is explained as follows: And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on (his/her) body in and of itself ... ardent, aware, and mindful ... having already put aside worldly desire and aversion. (ii) (He/she) remains focused on feelings in and of themselves ... ardent, aware, and mindful ... having already put aside worldly desire and aversion. (iii) (He/she) remains focused on the mind[14] in and of itself ... ardent, aware, and mindful ... having already put aside worldly desire and aversion. (iv) (He/she) remains focused on mental qualities[14] in and of themselves ... ardent, aware, and mindful ... having already put aside worldly desire and aversion. This, monks, is called right mindfulness[15]. Bhikkhu Bodhi, a monk of the Theravadin tradition, further glosses the concept of mindfulness as follows: The mind is deliberately kept at the level of bare attention, a detached observation of what is happening within us and around us in the present moment. In the practice of right mindfulness the mind is trained to remain in the present, open, quiet, and alert, contemplating the present event. All judgments and interpretations have to be suspended, or if they occur, just registered and dropped[16].

tozy wrote:

CaptPostMod wrote: Why not the step on The Path that is named sati? Exactly! Sati, the program free from purpose...

th3 p4th wrote:

intell wrote: tozy wrote: CaptPostMod wrote: Why not the step on The Path that is named sati? Exactly! Sati, the program free from purpose... Explain, please. wylfing.net... Quote: Right after he speaks that line, Sati shows up. The new way. There are two things to note about the final set of lines. First, Sati apparently makes the sunrise. The second thing is that the Oracle says she did not know things would work out as they did, but she believed they would. About the first: I said briefly before that the new Matrix exists not to enslave but to enable. Anyone in the new Matrix will be capable of shaping it, at least for a little while. Because Sati is the symbol of all this, she is shown crafting a sunrise. What is also important is that she does it on a whim. She does not say "Oh, it was 6:27 AM, and therefore time for the sun to come up." She says only, "I did it for Neo." No particular reason, no purpose, no one telling her to do it -- just sentiment.

tozy wrote:

I am in a hurry; thus in short: What defines a program? What binds a program? Who creates a program? Thus did man become the architect of his own deminse... Is it a coincidence that Sati comes to existence and can survive at that moment? What is detachment? What is sacrifice?

th3 p4th wrote:

Capt posted before me. What do you mean Capt?

As you point out, th3 p4th, there is no sacrifice. In Hindi tradition Sati is the burning widow who is willing to die with her husband's burning corpse. But where in the films do we see the Matrix Sati sacrificed? Who is she a widow to? When do we see her on fire or caught in flames or even near a funeral pyre? So that suggests that Sati is not filling the role of the burning widow. We have to look for another correlation then.

In another tradition (Buddhism), Sati means "mindfulness." Right mindfulness (samma sati) is a step on the Eightfold Path that Buddha details to reach enlightenment. The path is right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right contemplation. Since Sati is present as Neo takes a step forward on his path (and seems to represent a step forward along the Path to peace), it seems plausible that she is representative of a step on The Path.

Right mindfulness involves focusing one's attention correctly. When rightly mindful, one evaluates: physical sensations; pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings; states of consciousness; mental contents (conceptual and emotional). Focusing on these four attributes is called in some Buddhist traditions satipatthana. Sati fits the above described state of mind. She is ever present, questioning only what presents itself to be questioned and observing only what presents itself for observation:

Revolutions wrote:

Sati: Good morning. Neo: Who are you? Sati: My name is Sati. Your name is Neo. My papa says you're not supposed to be here. He says you must be lost. Are you lost, Neo? Neo: Where am I? Sati: This is the train station. Neo: This isn't the Matrix? Sati: That's where the Train goes. That's where we're going. But you cannot go with us. Neo: Why not? Sati: He won't let you. Neo: Who won't let me? Sati: The Trainman. *whispers* I don't like him, but my Papa says we have to do what the Trainman says or he will leave us here for ever and ever.

And the state of "sati" could well describe exactly where Neo's free mind had gone to allow him to enter the train station to begin with?

Edit:

Found the wikipedia article on satipatthana en.wikipedia.org...

th3 p4th wrote:

Hm makes sense. I never liked what's written on wikipedia about Sati: Quote: Sati is named after a Hindu deity who committed suicide after her parents forbade her marriage. This is probably a reference to her prospected deletion because she does not have a purpose and not a statement about her parents, who both were willing to risk a lot for her.

tozy wrote:

What defines and binds a program? Purpose. Who creates a program? Thus did man become the architect of his own demise. It is my understanding that a program is not a new invention of the system/machine world, but rather an expression of an aspect of being a human individual. Purpose... What is detachment? To overcome all desires within the realms of individuality, thus to develop/grow ones perception. What is sacrifice? To give up something for something better/greater. To give up the lower self (ego) for the higher Self, or Buddha nature (I know, Capt....), is a sacrifice. Detachment is sacrifice. Capt/Wikipedia wrote: The mind is deliberately kept at the level of bare attention, a detached observation of what is happening within us and around us in the present moment. In the practice of right mindfulness the mind is trained to remain in the present, open, quiet, and alert, contemplating the present event. All judgments and interpretations have to be suspended, or if they occur, just registered and dropped No judgement, no interpretation. You no longer look at the world with the eyes of an individual -> detachment. And detachment is represented by a program free from purpose. I agree with you, Capt., Sati does not represent sacrifice; but her existence does. Thus did man become the architect of his own demise With each program, Neo meets an aspect of himself (mankind). Same goes with Sati. In a way, she has been created by him walking the path of the One.

intell wrote:

But it fits, doesn't it?

It? If you mean Sati as a sacrifice, then no, it does not fit. How is she a sacrifice? Who sacrifices her? Is it self inflicted like the practice or the deity? Where is there fire shown with Sati? How is she involved with fire? Who is her husband? The practice and myth both involve a husband, so she has one? Where? What does she have to do with honor?

Sati is mindful. She is ever present and focuses on the moment at hand. This is the train station, who are you? Not distant and far off things. Through this she sets Neo further along The Path and ushers him toward Right Vision. That fits, right?

Sati as the act of honorable suicide by fire is a common correlation of her name by fans of the film, but it doesn't fit anything. If it does, then how?

th3 p4th wrote:

About the fire... it could be the gold coding of her but we never get to see it. EDIT Although in the script when Neo opens his eyes.. "he sees her as a program of pure radiant energy."

CaptPostMod wrote:

Gina Rink wrote: In order for one to compromise, something has to be sacrificed. And what or who serves as that sacrifice in the films? It's not Sati as she lives through it all just fine and is never offered up for sacrifice. All she does is act in a very mindful and present way that allows her to then see things enough to change them. Somebody else is offered up as the sacrifice though... (Hint: think crucifixion)

tozy wrote:

Gina Rink wrote: In order for one to compromise, something has to be sacrificed. Why compromise? CaptPostMod wrote: And what or who serves as that sacrifice in the films? It's not Sati as she lives through it all just fine and is never offered up for sacrifice. All she does is act in a very mindful and present way that allows her to then see things enough to change them. Somebody else is offered up as the sacrifice though... (Hint: think crucifixion) But there are more aspects to "sacrifice" than just giving a life! The prerequisite for right mindfulness is detachment. Is the thought that detachment is the sacrifice (as in giving up something for something greater) of individuality for a grown perception (beyond the limits of separation), too Hindu for you? Sati is not sacrificed, and she doesn't sacrifice herself. But her "birth"/existence within the Matrix universe is the expression of looking at the world in detachment, in sacrifice of individuality.

tozy wrote:

But there are more aspects to "sacrifice" than just giving a life!

True, but, as intell would say, does it fit? Sati is mindful and present and lacking purpose. Is she a sacrifice of any sort, let alone a self-sacrifice by fire? A concept of "sacrifice" could be applied to her, but of the two possible meanings of Sati (Hindi or Buddhist) which fits more easily? Mindfullness or self immolation for honor?

tozy wrote:

Sati is not sacrificed, and she doesn't sacrifice herself.

EDIT:

Think about what Rama says, and then read this--

intell wrote:

Just because you or I may find a particular practice or custom...how should I say...reprehensible, that doesn't mean that it didn't have some positive significance at its roots. Heck, even Coca-Cola started off as just a good drink.

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: Just because you or I may find a particular practice or custom...how should I say...reprehensibie, that doesn't mean that it didn't have some positive significance at its roots. Heck, even Coca-Cola started off as just a good drink. But what is the good at the Hindu Sati's roots? CaptPostMod wrote: Another of my favorite movies, The Thirteenth Warrior I have that one in my shelf, but I haven't watched it yet because the reviews were quite bad. Thanks for the hint!

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: intell wrote: Just because you or I may find a particular practice or custom...how should I say...reprehensibie, that doesn't mean that it didn't have some positive significance at its roots. Heck, even Coca-Cola started off as just a good drink. But what is the good at the Hindu Sati's roots? The key to understanding is recognising that customs and beliefs are started and taken up by people just like you or me. That said, you will have to do your own research into the roots of the idea behind this practice. Find out (for yourself) for example, whether the idea was meant as a metaphor that was later turned into a practice due to misunderstanding. Or consider the contextual beliefs during that time. If, for instance, we are talking about a belief system that states that life continues after death in a "better" condition, it may be easier to understand the practice or idea in that context. And thus, in that context, one may understand the W's use of the symbolism. Keep in mind that some may find the idea that a movie with so much death in it has religious or spiritual significance disturbing or irrational if they don't have your exposure, Tozy.

intell wrote:

...one may understand the W's use of the symbolism.

They used the Hindi practice of Sati as a symbol in the film. Where and when?

intell wrote:

Keep in mind that some may find the idea that a movie with so much death in it has religious or spiritual significance disturbing or irrational if they don't have your exposure, Tozy.

You've got a point there. It was tozy's constant defense of the violence in the Trilogy that helped me relax my view of the Bible. I never did like the Bible much because of the constant slaughter that occurs through out much of the stories in the Old Testament. But then if I remember that like the Trilogy it is all allegory, it makes it much easier to digest. The Philestines are not a people that get physically slaughtered in battle, they are symbols/stand-ins for psychological/theological issues that one traveling the Path to the Promised Land/Source must face.

CaptPostMod wrote:

I'm moving some of the posts from the old Sati thread over here by request so that this discussion can continue

Now Capt you became a moderator?


"Clouded this boy's future is."

Heh maybe she's sacrificing (suicide) her complete freedom at the end with the sunrise (fire), I mean finally submitting to the role of her new purpose for Neo (the love). Just a shot in the dark though heh...

I'm guessing her purpose before that was just to persaude Neo to die for all sentient life which someones already said, but I'm guessing that's the end of that purpose for her for a while. Maybe she'll come into it later for the same reason as helping people understand sentient life in general, but I wouldn't have a clue whats going on with the story with MxO.

well, here is my opinion. I think Sati is just a program who can reprogram like Visual Basic for instance. and as you know in the hindu mythology when Sati died here husband
Shiva the god of destruction had shatred here body all over the sacred land (India) and in every place where Sati's body pieces fall there were be a new reborn

for more info you can look at Return to the source one of the ultimate matrix boxest dvd's

see ya