»an explanation (?) please post possible snags/holes«

Ok. I'm new to these forums, but the questions the Matrix movies bring up have always intrigued me, and I have always been curious as to what other fans think of my explanation/theories. So finally, I've gotten around to posting my thoughts to see what u guys think. Here it is:

The matrix-within-a-matrix theory is the right one. Everything about this idea makes absolute sense and can explain every single aspect of the Matrix trilogy. The reason people have a hard time accepting this or feeling this is some kind of "cop out" is because it has never been taken into account that this theory is much larger and grander in scale than what people realize. Ok, you guys are gonna hate me - but try to imagine for one second that the entire story and events that take place in the Matrix movies are all a simulation. Sure, the basic idea is still there: In the future, AI enslaves the entire human race... however...

Control is absolute. There are no free humans in the real world. What is the real world? What does it look like? What is the true time frame this story takes place in? No one knows. The machines have finally gotten it right. They have created a matrix based on existence - the real world - true events. In this matrix exists a "Zion", the "real world", a dreamworld built to keep humans "under control" called the "Matrix", and of course "The Machine City". This is a matrix filled with hope - hope that no human being would question to be false. How would anyone know any better? A Matrix Within A Matrix? How or why would anyone jacked-in to this kind of reality even know to question such a theory? Thus, the machines find absolute control. A world where "The Ones" and "Zions" and dreamworlds called "Matrixes", etc. go 'round and 'round in a never ending cycle. Never-ending and flawless - only possible because of two things: hope and choice. A "war" ends and humans accept their virtual "freedom" ... the mind rests and a human being is kept under control.

Does this make sense? Of course. Did the W. Bros even acknowledge and recognize that this very fundamental aspect is what the story they are trying to tell is based on? I'm sure they did. There is no way the matrix-within-a-matrix theory can be ignored when trying to tell this story. I'm sure it was a possibility people theorized about even after the first Matrix movie. It was then obvious and emphasized more in the second and third film... but not obvious to everyone. You guys get this - I get it... the general audience however... is a different story. I'm sure this was foreseen and taken into account by the makers of these films. There's no way implications such as these aren't considered.

And so the verdict: The W. Bros. aren't trying to tell the story of "Matrix-Within-A-Matrix" theories. A story of that magnitude goes beyond three sci-fi/action films on the big screen. The story being told is about the human race ending the war and regaining their freedom from the machines who have enslaved them. The "Matrix" dreamworld concept is what kicks off this fantastic tale of Neo and the lives of these characters fighting an ongoing war of man and machine. There is a begining and there is an end.

Was the whole thing a simulation inside another matrix? Yes - but we are not meant to dwell on that. That is not the point of these films. Aside from the obvious "hollywood touches" (yes, as a fan that pissed me off too), the mere point of the movie is symbolism - aspects of spiritualism, religion, philosophy and even mythology all symbolizing and resembling machines, technology and every aspect of the computer world. That and "sit back and just enjoy the ride".

wow! I wrote a book!

now, think about it: u really think the average movie-goer would get all this? ..exactly.

Things that make no sense with MWaM:

Choice to leave the Matrix to go to the Real World poses problems with the Matrix?

Exiles leaving the Real World going to the Matrix! For what?

Who controls the outer matrix (real world)?

Where are the exits?

Sati changes both worlds? What for?

If you die in the matrix within a matrix, ok Morpheus, I know you said we die in the Real World but do we also die in the real Real World?

intell wrote:

Things that make no sense with MWaM: Choice to leave the Matrix to go to the Real World poses problems with the Matrix? Exiles leaving the Real World going to the Matrix! For what? Who controls the outer matrix (real world)? Where are the exits? Sati changes both worlds? What for? If you die in the matrix within a matrix, ok Morpheus, I know you said we die in the Real World but do we also die in the real Real World?

I don't understand your first statement/question.

Exiles assume the "real world" is real. What they do/think doesn't matter because they are still bound by logic and reasoning of this matrix (real world) -They don't know they're in an other matrix.

Who controls the outer matrix (real world)? who do you think?

Where are the exits? ok, u keep forgetting that the Real World Matrix is something people don't know they're in. The machines can make the RWM anything they want. Exit? what the hell is an exit? how or why would anyone know to question this in the real world? how do I awake from THIS matrix? ...first u must realize you're IN another matrix. Something not so easily done.

I don't understand your Sati question.

"your mind makes it real." "the body cannot live without the mind." -this is true no matter how many "realities" your mind is trapped in (MWM). if the brain believes it - your body accepts it - wherever it may be...

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I don't understand your first statement/question.

I know. It is a pivotal thing to know to understand the trilogy. It's funny how mwam thinkers gloss over it or just plain ignore it.

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Exiles assume the "real world" is real.

So instead of seeking release, they run further into the interior? We should call them, "iniles"

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Who controls the outer matrix (real world)? who do you think?

No. Who do you think?

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I don't understand your Sati question.

The Oracle saves Sati because she believes one day the girl will "change both worlds forever". Why would this be important if both worlds are fake ones? And why is there no mention of the third allegedly real world?

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Where are the exits? ok, u keep forgetting that the Real World Matrix is something people don't know they're in.

No. I'm not. That's the point. If the real world is fake, who has awakened from it? And where are the "awakened" jacking in to save/free/teach anybody? Their not there perhaps because they don't exist and mwam is untrue?

I don't get why people would believe that Zion isn't part of a real world, there is no evidence that backs this, not even a hint what so ever. Just because this isn't denied by the movies doesn't mean that it's true, you could just as well argue that it's all a dream, the whole story was just a dream that Thomas A. Anderson dreamt.

That scenario isn't denied by the movies either, so why not? Well because it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't add anything at all to the movie, if the MWM thing was true, it would totally trash everything else the movie is about.

And Sanejack, you keep forgetting that the people in the Matrix doesn't know either that they are in a fake world, but some still break free, as they would from the fake fake world, if it was true, even more so since the idear of fake worlds would already be in there head, and then they would be more aware of such a thing.

So that theory doesn't hold water, first off all, no evidence to back it, no idea behind it and last but not least a ton of holes in it.

Lol. I wish knn would show up to defend the theory too. "It ends tonight" lol!

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if the MWM thing was true, it would totally trash everything else the movie is about.

Meaning: It would be duplicious because we already are introduced to the Matrix as only being part of the story in a system of control. If there is more than one matrix on top of that, that is just ridiculous.

The appeal of MWaM is because the viewer knows something else is going on here but they can't quite put their finger on it.

Hehe thanks Intell, nice to have someone to make me understandable.

Everyone keeps missing the point.

Yes, the MWM theory is ridiculous. It raises even more questions, yadda yadda yadda. But that doesn't matter -
*sigh* ok, let me see if I can explain it a bit better.

Take dreaming, for example. Pretend someone is making a movie about you having a dream. In that dream, you dream that you are dreaming (hey, it happens). Then the story begins: In this dream within a dream, you win the lottery, make out w/ your best friend's girlfriend, you fly, etc. These amazing and unrealistic things happen and it's cool. Then you wake up in bed and it was all a dream. You get up, get dressed, got to work etc. A week goes by and one day you are in a car accident. Your car is totaled but u are miraculously unharmed. You discover that you have special powers, etc. It's the "real world" (or so u think) but something is not quite right - but you accept it.

Ok. Stop right there. Aside from the fact that the entire thing is a dream itself, wasn't that a pretty interesting series of events? Does it matter that the whole thing was a dream itself? If I hadn't told you that you were dreaming in the first place, would you still have found it interesting?

I think that's the point the W. Bros were trying to get across. Is everything that happened in the Matrix movies really all just inside another matrix? Sure. Then, are there any free/unplugged humans in the TRUE real world? Probably not. Everyone is under control.

Does that really matter? No. That's looking to deep into it. Most people are simply enjoying a story about Neo saving humanity from the machines and something called the matrix. That's where it ends. The story itself is pretty amazing and very cool - whether it's real or not.

So I'll say it again - MWM makes perfect sense - but who cares. It's not what the matrix films are about or even their point. We aren't meant to dwell on or dissect the MWM theory. I think that goes without saying.

Danakaz wrote:

And Sanejack, you keep forgetting that the people in the Matrix doesn't know either that they are in a fake world, but some still break free, as they would from the fake fake world, if it was true, even more so since the idear of fake worlds would already be in there head, and then they would be more aware of such a thing.

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dreamworld and the real world?"

Ever thought of this applying this to Zion and IT"S reality?


I know alot of you don't want to accept the MWM theory because you think it's stupid - but I'm sure a machine thinks it's genius and makes perfect sense.

How many levels of control are necessary (how MWM's are needed)? As many as it takes... until human beings finally accept the reality they're given - and stop trying to "wake up" from it.

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"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dreamworld and the real world?" Ever thought of this applying this to Zion and IT"S reality?

But the thing is, that we know for at fact that people is able to awake from the matrix, and that some people can bend the rules of the matrix, none of this happens in Zion therefor there is no reason to believe that Zion should be another matrix.

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Ok. Stop right there. Aside from the fact that the entire thing is a dream itself, wasn't that a pretty interesting series of events? Does it matter that the whole thing was a dream itself?

Do you yourself live in a dream world? Because yes, the fact that it was a dream mathers, it's not real, and has no effect on the real world, if you live in your dreamworld you'll accomplish nothing in the real world, as would the Matrix trilogy be pointless if the whole thing was a dream, let alone MWM.

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So I'll say it again - MWM makes perfect sense

You must be living in a dream world.

sanejack wrote:

So I'll say it again - MWM makes perfect sense - but who cares. It's not what the matrix films are about or even their point.

What in the world does that mean? If you're saying that it (the theory) is not what the movies are about, I have to agree.

I give up. u guys are hopeless.

-take a blue pill

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I give up. u guys are hopeless.

Translation: The evidence is stacked heavily against me but it's your fault for not ignoring it and believing what I say.

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-take a blue pill

Translation: Join me in my bliss. Go back to sleep.

Intell responds: "No. You, there. Take a red one!

I'm new to these forums as well, but I agree with the MWM theories in general.

intell wrote:

Things that make no sense with MWaM:

I'll give my answers to your questions.

First of all, when you say "Real World" do you mean the real real world, according to the MWM theories, or do you mean the "'real" world in the movies; what the MWM theories say is the second matrix? You're not clear, but I think you mean the latter. That's part of the confusion the original poster had understanding your response.

intell wrote:

Choice to leave the Matrix to go to the Real World poses problems with the Matrix?

Yes. You didn't understand the problem. It was the desire to leave the matrix and be unable to that was causing the problems. Where they were leaving to was not important; all that was important is where they believed they were leaving to.

intell wrote:

Exiles leaving the Real World going to the Matrix! For what?

It still makes sense for the exiles to be comming from the real real world into the Matrix. That doesn't conflict with the MWM theories.

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Who controls the outer matrix (real world)?

The Architect obviously. He controls both. He built both worlds to control the humans.

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Where are the exits?

Who says there have to be any exits?

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Sati changes both worlds? What for? The Oracle saves Sati because she believes one day the girl will "change both worlds forever". Why would this be important if both worlds are fake ones?

The reasons don't change just because both worlds are "fake". "Reality is what you can see and touch". Both worlds exist and have to interact with each other; it doesn't matter that they're both virtual.

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If you die in the matrix within a matrix, ok Morpheus, I know you said we die in the Real World but do we also die in the real Real World?

Probably, but it's an irrelevent issue anyway.


Here's a repost of my theory that I came up with a while ago and posted somewhere else (with some editing). It's in the middle of a thread, but I think you can follow it:

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Quote: Number 2 has been already answered: Neo has supernatural powers, which transcend the Matrix/real world boundaries. As Oracle said, he is The One, and not only in the matrix. Supernatural powers huh? There is no conclusive evidence of this. It is much more logical to conclude that the 'real world' is a second Matrix. First, the Oracle didn't say ".. not only in the Matrix", she said "not only in this world". "This world" could mean this Matrix versus the other Matrix. She also said something cryptic about "his powers reaching back to the source", which doesn't explain anything. Second, it is the best explanation for how Neo could enter the Matrix without being plugged in. You may be able to come up with wacky supernatural explanations, but the conclusion that the 'real world' is another Matrix is the best logical explanation. Then they're always 'plugged-in' in the real real world, and everything makes sense. Third, his Matrix powers were not necessarially supernatural in the first place. During the Architect's speech in Reloaded he says something like "You must return to the source for a dissemination of the code you carry". At no other time (even in Revolutions) is there any reference to Neo "carrying code". The logical explanation is that this code is what gives Neo his powers. There need be nothing supernatural about it. He's half program. This fits nicely with the MWM theories. Fourth, there is a constant theme about free will versus the illusion of free will. The idea of the Matrix prison itself exemplifies this. But the movie expresses it more subtly in other ways, such as the Oracle saying: "You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it". Neo believes he has free will, but he doesn't. Even before any questions arise, the choices were made subconsciously, emotionally, based on who he is, not out of free will. The idea shows up in the first Matrix, when Neo was choosing between the red pill and the blue pill. Ofcorse he will choose the red, it's not a real choice. It's the same thing at the end of Revolutions with Niobe choosing to "help Neo, or not". That's not a real choice, her decision was guranteed; it's the illusion of free will. Even less subtly, is the scene with the Merovingian in Reloaded. He rips into them for not understanding why they're doing any of the things they're doing. They believe they're exercising free will, but they're not; they're just doing what the Oracle tells them. The Oracle, and the Architect, are exericising a level of control over these people in a way similar to how Isaac Asimov's psychohistorians guided the fate of the Foundation. If you haven't read Foundation then you should; it's excellent. The point is, that it's all about the illusion of free will. One of the themes is that true free will doesn't exist. People don't need to actually have free will, they just need to believe that they do. The same thing is true of escaping the Matrix (which is a metaphor for gaining free will). People don't need to actually escape the Matrix, they just need to believe that they've escaped. That's all that's requried in order for "the equation to balance", and the Architect and the Oracle know this, and that's how they've engineered everything.

I've had some more thoughts that I need to post while they're fresh.

Smith's speech about "purpose" bugged me for a little bit because it seemed like an important concept that was demanding to be worked prominantly into my theory but I couldn't figure out how.

Then I realized I was looking at the problem from the wrong point of view.

Step into the Architect's shoes for a minute. You've built this virtual world to control the humans, but there's a problem. Some people develop an unconscious awareness that the wolrd is fake and and unconscious desire to leave. Left unchecked, this problem grows and eventaually causes a total system crash.

So how do you fix it?

You could allow them to leave, but then you'd lose control and that's not necessary. All you need to do is allow them to believe that they've left (I'm not going to duplicate my previous argument on this, see my other post, just accept it for now).

So now, you've built this second world for the 'unhappy' to escape into. Great. But you're not done yet. You can't just leave them there and expect them to twiddle their thumbs all day. You need to give them purpose. They need to be occupied. Given the proper purpose they can be guided, controlled, managed.

That purpose is "The One" and the Prophecy. They were both created by the Architect (and the Oracle) as a mechanism for giving purpose to the humans so they could be controlled.

"Free will is an illusion created between those with power and those without".

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First of all, when you say "Real World" do you mean the real real world, according to the MWM theories, or do you mean the "'real" world in the movies; what the MWM theories say is the second matrix? You're not clear, but I think you mean the latter. That's part of the confusion the original poster had understanding your response.

Is there a difference? The confusion would be cleared up by considering what the Wach's said in the interview I posted the link to above.

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It was the desire to leave the matrix and be unable to that was causing the problems. Where they were leaving to was not important; all that was important is where they believed they were leaving to.

Kool. They are allowed to go to a part of the same system according to MWaM. No problem. So why the need to destroy that part from time to time? (Zion)

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It still makes sense for the exiles to be comming from the real real world into the Matrix. That doesn't conflict with the MWM theories.

The conflict arises when considering why the exiles have to hide out in one part of a program when they can hide out in any part of it according to MWaM. A Mobil Ave. is a real plot hole if the exiles could just enter the "world" that includes Zion. But we don't see squiddies coming after any "renegade" machines.

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The Architect obviously. He controls both. He built both worlds to control the humans.

This is assuming a great deal. Since we clearly see machines in the real world, if this is a matrix too, one must consider what and who is actually "plugged" into it and how. How can the Architect "build" anything? He's a program, right?

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Who says there have to be any exits?

What other proof could the movies provide of an outer world?

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Both worlds exist and have to interact with each other; it doesn't matter that they're both virtual.

Think about how you answer this question: Neo's death accomplished what, then? If you say peace, then the peace is fake sense the war is fake because there are no free humans just those that think they are. Then the movies emphasis of the war and ending it make no sense any more does it?

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Probably, but it's an irrelevent issue anyway.

How so? If you don't die then what? You wake up? It's only an irrelevant issue if you do die but we're going way beyond the script with the theory anyway so we might as well keep going.

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Supernatural powers huh? There is no conclusive evidence of this. It is much more logical to conclude that the 'real world' is a second Matrix. First, the Oracle didn't say ".. not only in the Matrix", she said "not only in this world". "This world" could mean this Matrix versus the other Matrix. She also said something cryptic about "his powers reaching back to the source", which doesn't explain anything. Second, it is the best explanation for how Neo could enter the Matrix without being plugged in. You may be able to come up with wacky supernatural explanations, but the conclusion that the 'real world' is another Matrix is the best logical explanation. Then they're always 'plugged-in' in the real real world, and everything makes sense. Third, his Matrix powers were not necessarially supernatural in the first place. During the Architect's speech in Reloaded he says something like "You must return to the source for a dissemination of the code you carry". At no other time (even in Revolutions) is there any reference to Neo "carrying code". The logical explanation is that this code is what gives Neo his powers. There need be nothing supernatural about it. He's half program. This fits nicely with the MWM theories. Fourth, there is a constant theme about free will versus the illusion of free will. The idea of the Matrix prison itself exemplifies this. But the movie expresses it more subtly in other ways, such as the Oracle saying: "You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it". Neo believes he has free will, but he doesn't. Even before any questions arise, the choices were made subconsciously, emotionally, based on who he is, not out of free will. The idea shows up in the first Matrix, when Neo was choosing between the red pill and the blue pill. Ofcorse he will choose the red, it's not a real choice. It's the same thing at the end of Revolutions with Niobe choosing to "help Neo, or not". That's not a real choice, her decision was guranteed; it's the illusion of free will. Even less subtly, is the scene with the Merovingian in Reloaded. He rips into them for not understanding why they're doing any of the things they're doing. They believe they're exercising free will, but they're not; they're just doing what the Oracle tells them. The Oracle, and the Architect, are exericising a level of control over these people in a way similar to how Isaac Asimov's psychohistorians guided the fate of the Foundation. If you haven't read Foundation then you should; it's excellent. The point is, that it's all about the illusion of free will. One of the themes is that true free will doesn't exist. People don't need to actually have free will, they just need to believe that they do. The same thing is true of escaping the Matrix (which is a metaphor for gaining free will). People don't need to actually escape the Matrix, they just need to believe that they've escaped. That's all that's requried in order for "the equation to balance", and the Architect and the Oracle know this, and that's how they've engineered everything.

I think I posted a question about what is so supernatural about using a remote control on machines? That's essentially what Neo does with the sentinels and at the end of the movie and jacking in without a plug.

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Some people develop an unconscious awareness that the wolrd is fake and and unconscious desire to leave. Left unchecked, this problem grows and eventaually causes a total system crash. So how do you fix it? You could allow them to leave, but then you'd lose control and that's not necessary. All you need to do is allow them to believe that they've left (I'm not going to duplicate my previous argument on this, see my other post, just accept it for now). So now, you've built this second world for the 'unhappy' to escape into. Great. But you're not done yet. You can't just leave them there and expect them to twiddle their thumbs all day. You need to give them purpose.

Wait. Didn't the people wanting to leave the Matrix have a purpose already in that context? But they still developed an 'unconscious awareness that it was fake and an unconscious desire to leave it'. So how can the unconscious awareness (which we both agree is part of the movie/message) be fixed by just giving them purpose? Heck, ya did that already in the Matrix right?

MWaM still answers nothing of substance in the films. But it is not too far from the truth. Meditating on the last two questions I just posed should push you in the right direction.

intell wrote:

Quote: First of all, when you say "Real World" do you mean the real real world, according to the MWM theories, or do you mean the "'real" world in the movies; what the MWM theories say is the second matrix? You're not clear, but I think you mean the latter. That's part of the confusion the original poster had understanding your response. Is there a difference?

Huh? The difference is the entire point of this discussion. If you don't understand the difference then you don't understand the point we're supposed to be debating.

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Quote: It was the desire to leave the matrix and be unable to that was causing the problems. Where they were leaving to was not important; all that was important is where they believed they were leaving to. Kool. They are allowed to go to a part of the same system according to MWaM. No problem. So why the need to destroy that part from time to time? (Zion)

Because that's the only way to deal with them. What would be the alternative? Just leave them there to do what they please? That wouldn't work for at least two reasons. First they might eventually develop again that same subconcious awareness that they are in a virtual world. And second, they would simply be a pain in the ass because the machines would have to fight a constant war with them; It's much simplier to irradicate them and start the cycle again.

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Quote: It still makes sense for the exiles to be comming from the real real world into the Matrix. That doesn't conflict with the MWM theories. The conflict arises when considering why the exiles have to hide out in one part of a program when they can hide out in any part of it according to MWaM. A Mobil Ave. is a real plot hole if the exiles could just enter the "world" that includes Zion. But we don't see squiddies coming after any "renegade" machines.

You're drawing conclusions that MWaM doesn't. Just because the two worlds are both virtual doesn't mean that the exiles have acces to enter the second matrix. They can't even get to the first Matrix without going via that train.

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Quote: The Architect obviously. He controls both. He built both worlds to control the humans. This is assuming a great deal. Since we clearly see machines in the real world, if this is a matrix too, one must consider what and who is actually "plugged" into it and how. How can the Architect "build" anything? He's a program, right?

Are you serious? Being a program means he couldn't have designed the matrix? Are you suggesting maybe the matrix was designed by a human then? All machines are programs, ofcourse he could build it. I'm sure he exists outside the matrix the same way the exiles did before they were exiled.

I don't think it's assuming too much at all. The matrix must have a designer; a machine ofcourse. And if that designer wanted to interact with the people in the matrix it's perfectly logical for him to represent himself as the Architect does.

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Quote: Who says there have to be any exits? What other proof could the movies provide of an outer world?

The movie doesn't provide proof of anyhing, one way or the other. If it did then this whole discussion would be moot. What the movie does provide is significant evidence that the "real" world is actually a second virtual world.

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Quote: Both worlds exist and have to interact with each other; it doesn't matter that they're both virtual. Think about how you answer this question: Neo's death accomplished what, then? If you say peace, then the peace is fake sense the war is fake because there are no free humans just those that think they are. Then the movies emphasis of the war and ending it make no sense any more does it?

Just because the world is virtual doens't mean the war is fake. The war is as real as any war. Just being played out in the matrix doesn't change that.

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Quote: Probably, but it's an irrelevent issue anyway. How so? If you don't die then what? You wake up? It's only an irrelevant issue if you do die but we're going way beyond the script with the theory anyway so we might as well keep going.

Fine. You're right, it's only logical that you also die in the real real world.

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I think I posted a question about what is so supernatural about using a remote control on machines? That's essentially what Neo does with the sentinels and at the end of the movie and jacking in without a plug.

No, it's not supernatural but it is extremely stupid. What is this remote control? Where did he get it? Why does he have it? What does it look like? Does he carry it around in his pants? How does it let him jack in? I'm sorry but I can't stop laughing.

intell wrote:

Wait. Didn't the people wanting to leave the Matrix have a purpose already in that context? But they still developed an 'unconscious awareness that it was fake and an unconscious desire to leave it'. So how can the unconscious awareness (which we both agree is part of the movie/message) be fixed by just giving them purpose? Heck, ya did that already in the Matrix right?

You missed the point. The problem of the unconscious awareness was solved by allowing them to believe they had escaped. After that point they needed to be given a purpose in order to be controlled.

I had a quick look at that interview you linked to. There was one very interesting part. In fact it was the part you quoted, though for different reasons.

intell wrote:

Quote: Starr22 says: Are all the religious symbolism and doctrine throughout this movie intentional, or not? WachowskiBros: Most of it is intentional. One of the things we tried to do with the Neb for when we were shooting "in the real world" was use long lenses to separate the humans from the backgrounds, as opposed to when we shot the Matrix we used short lenses to place the humans in specific deep spaces. We also tinted all of the lights blue in the "real world" and green in the Matrix.

Interesting how both times that they refer to the "real world" they put it in quotes. Now why would they do that I wonder?

No, it's not proof of anything, but it is suggestive.

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Quote: I think I posted a question about what is so supernatural about using a remote control on machines? That's essentially what Neo does with the sentinels and at the end of the movie and jacking in without a plug. No, it's not supernatural but it is extremely stupid. What is this remote control? Where did he get it? Why does he have it? What does it look like? Does he carry it around in his pants? How does it let him jack in? I'm sorry but I can't stop laughing.

Ok, I'll admit I hadn't read about the details of the wireless connection theory when I replied. I just have and I still think it's silly. It feels way too much like a 'hacked' explanation. The MwM theory is much more consistant with the themes of the movies.

First of all, thanks for taking the time out to consider the key parts of the interview. At least now you see where I'm coming from. Now let's proceed accourdingly:

lazy wrote:

intell wrote: So why the need to destroy that part from time to time? (Zion) Because that's the only way to deal with them. What would be the alternative? Just leave them there to do what they please? That wouldn't work for at least two reasons. First they might eventually develop again that same subconcious awareness that they are in a virtual world. And second, they would simply be a pain in the ass because the machines would have to fight a constant war with them; It's much simplier to irradicate them and start the cycle again.

First of all I'm assuming you believe the humans that fled from the matrix to the "real world" never really woke up and are still in pods (or something like that) and are still being used as batteries. If so read next paragraph. If not stop here and post a clarification.

You seem to think the machines are worried more about the people in the "Zion/01 matrix" than those in the "Megacity matrix" and about their 'doing as they pleased' and that they might "develop that same subconscious awareness". To this, I will say that this "subconscious awareness is not something that is developed and then put aside until it is needed again. Subconscious awareness means just that - that the person having it is aware of the difference between true and false. Have you ever noticed that as real as a dream seems, when you do wake up, it is hard to remember most of the actual details of the dream? The mind knows the difference.

Secondly, killing 250,000 of those who are still batteries makes no sense unless they are killed upon trying to disconnect themselves. If you want to keep them distracted use a phony war or a seemingly endless struggle and don't say it wouldn't work because its been working since the winter of 2001 and on ppl who aren't even fighting in it

Meaning of all of this: Wasting so much resources for no apparent danger does not sound "exactly like the thinking of a machine to me."

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Just because the two worlds are both virtual doesn't mean that the exiles have acces to enter the second matrix.

What I'm saying is that the presence of exiles poses trouble for the MWaM theory if you think about it for a minute. Why would a program fleeing from a real "real world" still not be safe in the "simulated 01"? No they are only safe in the Matrix. Now if all of it is a Matrix, would not all of it be safe territory? I think both of us will have to talk more about exiles before this is over.

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What the movie does provide is significant evidence that the "real" world is actually a second virtual world.

Let's have an examination of this significant evidence.

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Just because the world is virtual doens't mean the war is fake. The war is as real as any war. Just being played out in the matrix doesn't change that.

Going with the assumptions I made above, I can't see how you can believe this. Let's say I have you in a VR program, like a video game. I'm afraid you will get bored and wake up so I run a war program for you.
You are fighting and trying to survive.
I'm having dinner with friends and drinking wine.
You are getting cornered and feeling hopeless.
I just finished taking a shower.
A character on "your side" of the war proposes a truce to save your life and everyone else.
I've been asleep for about 2 hours.

What war? Yes the war is fake and that character's proposal, the truce, and the war itself means nothing to me. You are in VR and I'm using your body heat to save on gasoline, LOL!

Meaning of all of that is: If MWaM is true then most of the actions in Revolutions especially Neo's sacrifice was just silly and unnecessary.

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both times that they refer to the "real world" they put it in quotes. Now why would they do that I wonder?

I understand where you're going with that but what they actually said about "real world" goes against what you're trying to imply with the quotes. I'll just say they did that because the whole movie is about the "real world" - society today. So to those who realise this, they didn't want to infer that only Zion and 01 were about this.

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The problem of the unconscious awareness was solved by allowing them to believe they had escaped.

If so, no need to kill 'em, right? But the point is: "unconscious" or "subconscious awareness" can't be solved by conscious beliefs. That's why you take the red pill, dude!

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I hadn't read about the details of the wireless connection theory when I replied. I just have and I still think it's silly. It feels way too much like a 'hacked' explanation. The MwM theory is much more consistant with the themes of the movies.

What themes are those? But if you say so. You MUST know more about it than those Wacho's. haha.

matrix within a matrix is something interesting to think about, but it's impractical, and also entirely conjecture. You can't prove it, and you can't with absolute certainty (I know you are certain Intell, but hang with me) disprove it. And this is the problem with the MWAM. This also opens up a whole new can of worms, where does it stop. Is it an endless abyss of realities one after another? Why would someone design such a thing? How many worlds are they operating? Infiniate worlds possibly, which is most likely impossible even for super smart machines, seeing as how the matrix itself has "stability" issues. Think of what stacking matricies on top of each other does for stability... you'd have matricies imploding on each other, which is not only hard to immagine, but the consequences of such an act seem to be unknowable, at least to me... maybe you know what happens?

Then their is the other problem... the brothers struggle with the idea of whether choice exists or not throughtout the films. The ending does suggest that Neo achieved Satori, Nirvana, which if you examine those things, is like escaping the perceptional reality we are all living in. So Neo I suppose does escape the entire matrix of everything, and we are all yet to join him in accomplishing such a feat, but you are not speaking of this kind of matrix, you are talking about layer after layer, this is not Nirvana, Nirvana is no layer, it is nothing.

While I am a big fan of 1984, the matrix does not end with the system of control as the winner, Neo does not love the matrix and accept it as reality because the machines did nasty things to him in room 101. It carries with it a spiritual message beyond the social and political ones, which are still important, but they don't define the matrix by themselves, they are only a part. Perhaps if you try integrating all of these elements into your experience rather then elevating one and negating the others, you will see where others are coming from here.

Hex, you always know what to say, very good post, man.

Hex... wrote:

You can't prove it, and you can't with absolute certainty (I know you are certain Intell, but hang with me) disprove it. And this is the problem with the MWAM.

No. You're absolutely right, Hex. I guess the only thing that will be definitive enough is a statement by those involved in the story itself.

intell wrote:

You seem to think the machines are worried more about the people in the "Zion/01 matrix" than those in the "Megacity matrix" and about their 'doing as they pleased' and that they might "develop that same subconscious awareness". To this, I will say that this "subconscious awareness is not something that is developed and then put aside until it is needed again. Subconscious awareness means just that - that the person having it is aware of the difference between true and false. Secondly, killing 250,000 of those who are still batteries makes no sense unless they are killed upon trying to disconnect themselves. If you want to keep them distracted use a phony war or a seemingly endless struggle and don't say it wouldn't work because its been working since the winter of 2001 and on ppl who aren't even fighting in it Meaning of all of this: Wasting so much resources for no apparent danger does not sound "exactly like the thinking of a machine to me."

You do have one point. If the world is virtual then it doesn't make sense to say maintaing the war would be a 'pain in ass' as I had said before. I take that back.

But I stand by my first point. Maybe I wasn't clear on it. I'll rephrase. I'm suggesting that the subconcious awarness is temporarily suppressed by the conscious belief that they've escaped. However, given enough time it will eventually resurface. That's why they need to be killed.

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What I'm saying is that the presence of exiles poses trouble for the MWaM theory if you think about it for a minute. Why would a program fleeing from a real "real world" still not be safe in the "simulated 01"? No they are only safe in the Matrix. Now if all of it is a Matrix, would not all of it be safe territory? I think both of us will have to talk more about exiles before this is over.

I never said that the exiles wouldn't be safe in simulated 01. MwM doesn't imply that.

I don't believe they're there, but that's because I don't believe they have any way to get there, not because it's not 'safe'. Assuming they could get there, what makes you think that MwM says it's not safe?

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Let's say I have you in a VR program, like a video game. I'm afraid you will get bored and wake up so I run a war program for you. You are fighting and trying to survive. I'm having dinner with friends and drinking wine. You are getting cornered and feeling hopeless. I just finished taking a shower. A character on "your side" of the war proposes a truce to save your life and everyone else. I've been asleep for about 2 hours. What war? Yes the war is fake and that character's proposal, the truce, and the war itself means nothing to me. You are in VR and I'm using your body heat to save on gasoline, LOL!

You're half right. From the machines point of view the war is fake, yes. But not for the humans. For them it's real; they are dying. The peace means something to them.

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Quote: both times that they refer to the "real world" they put it in quotes. Now why would they do that I wonder? I understand where you're going with that but what they actually said about "real world" goes against what you're trying to imply with the quotes.

Could you quote exactly what it is they said that you claim goes against MwM.

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Quote: I hadn't read about the details of the wireless connection theory when I replied. I just have and I still think it's silly. It feels way too much like a 'hacked' explanation. The MwM theory is much more consistant with the themes of the movies. What themes are those? But if you say so. You MUST know more about it than those Wacho's. haha.

That comment implys that the W Brothers support your position on this and reject mine. Not only is that arrogant but it's wrong. You should support you position with logical arguments, not childish insults.

Re-read my first post. Specifically the quoted part at the bottom of my original theory. The themes are explained.