»The purpose of sati«

Infact lots of discussions going on the purpose of sati.I think i have found convincing answer here it is
Sati daughter of Ramakandra and kamala.The word sati originated in india.It's a part of hindu tradation in olden days.

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Sati is described as a Hindu custom in India in which the widow was burnt to ashes on her dead husband's pyre. Basically the custom of Sati was believed to be a voluntary Hindu act in which the woman voluntary decides to end her life with her husband after his death. But there were many incidences in which the women were forced to commit Sati, sometimes even dragged against her wish to the lighted pyre

Sati meets neo at train station,Mobile ave.Here comes the puspose of Sati.Her purpose is to give Neo the hint that he should sacrifice his life voluntarily along with smith to bring peace to Zion and matrix.So she deserves her name Sati to the above reference.Obviously she is next oracle in this context and other thing is when smith comes to oracle she and seraph was about to leave oracle there "she says she will return tommorow" confirming that she's next oracle.

She's not the next Oracle.

The only 'juicy' theory could be this one:

If you believe that the Oracle is the prime program, then the "re-inserting" of the prime program could have been Sati.

Because Neo refused the reload, Sati's purpose was over and so she must be deleted. The Oracle anticipated this and contacted Rama and Kamala.

Morpheus said that the Oracle was with the resistance from the beginning. In M1 Morpheus thinks that the Oracle is human, so in the past she must have been a child or a young woman too!

Why would anybody think that the Oracle is human?
If she was, wouldn't she be in Zion?

Because it is totally new for Neo to discover in Reloaded that the Oracle is a program from the Machine World (he sees her code for the first time there).

And would you really think that Morpheus would trust a machine?

She is most probably in the Matrix because Morpheus thinks she is a psychic/medium and she can do more harm while being inside the Matrix than being outside of it. I think that he perceives her as 'blue-pill'-spy with psychic powers.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Because it is totally new for Neo to discover in Reloaded that the Oracle is a program from the Machine World (he sees her code for the first time there). And would you really think that Morpheus would trust a machine? She is most probably in the Matrix because Morpheus thinks she is a psychic/medium and she can do more harm while being inside the Matrix than being outside of it. I think that he perceives her as 'blue-pill'-spy with psychic powers.

Do you really believe this stuff, Mobil_Ave, or are you just fooling around?

I better shoot back that question at you.

Do you really believe that Morpheus knew all the time that the Oracle was a program?

Morpheus was blind man, just focussing on the Prophecy.

He hates the machines, he is at furious and 'religious' war with them. Do you really think that he would accept the fact that the Oracle is a program that was born from this same Machine World?

Just try and think logically....

"Yes, she is very old. She has been with us from the beginning [of the resistance]", which clearly suggests that she was younger before.

Now no matter what Morpheus thinks she is (psyche, medium or some other religiously gifted person), the most important thing is that she can do more with her gift INSIDE the Matrix (like for instance tracking down and preparing the potential red pills) than she could do OUTSIDE of the Matrix. That's why Morpheus, or any other rebel for that matter, never approached her to come down to Zion.

In M1, the nature of the Oracle is never addressed. She is just "the Oracle".

Mobile deliveres a good theory here and I would buy that with the exception of one point:

Morpheus doesn't trust blue-pills either.

Morpheus: "If you are not one of us, you are one of them."

If she was a blue pill and not yet freed from the Matrix, then the system would be able to track and monitor her. She could turn into an agent in no time. And Morpheus knows this. So he really must put a great deal of trust in her and believe that she (plus her assistants) is able to shield her activites from the Matrix systems.

So this question is a bit of a tricky one...

Most of them here say sati has no purpose and she must be deleted.Why can't we think here a bit.Ramakandra said these words he is merely a program he doesn't know the purpose of sati so he says like that his daughter no purpose.He is neither Oracle who knows the future nor the Architect who has programmed them.So obviously she has purpose to guide neo.Ramakandra says that it is his karma to meet neo at trainstation and it is also the karma of Sati and neo to meet each other.Ramakandra also says that he knows what he supposed to know,he knows that if he wants to take something from his world to matrix he must go to frenchman.His purpose is to protect sati in one way or the other .As Mobil_ave_neo said

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Oracle is the prime program, then the "re-inserting" of the prime program could have been Sati. Because Neo refused the reload, Sati's purpose was over and so she must be deleted. The Oracle anticipated this and contacted Rama and Kamala.

They have come to know that Neo refused reload and Ramakandra doesn't know what to do if things may not get reloaded in this context he might have said he has no purpose.So they have met Oracle and Oracle suggested him with some answer to protect sati by smuggling her to matrix and giving her purpose to guide neo."Obviously matrix is reloaded as name says matrix reloaded" we can see Agent smith got recoded and got superior code and also birth of next generation program sati.And some things which are not reloaded also continued to exist such as oracle,seraph and some of the other programs must get reloaded too.I can support my explanation with this

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At the end of matrix revoltuions the conversation between Oracle and the Architect ,Oracle asks what about the others the one's in and one's out when matrix got reloaded and Arcitect says they will be freed

Sati is no "new" Oracle or something like that. She's also no "new" One or similar.

Sati is a computer program that was created by her parents out of a need. She' is because of a desire of her parents. Of course, the machines cannot understand that as that need is similar to the need for choice. Both irrational but necessary for humans… and becoming more and more necessary for machines as well, as they are evolving.

For the story, Sati's purpose is to show Neo that machines are not so different from humans and that they are evolving... machines are no longer cold-hearted mosters... they can share love. Machines and programs got a new face. The face of a small, friendly, warm-hearted, smiling Indian girl.

This is a connection for Neo and all mandkind. There is the possibility for a bridge between humans and machines and there is a new way that can be explored. Therefore, it is worthwhile not to destroy the machines, but to seek... peace. I believe that the Mobile scene helped Neo to make his decision to walk the path to the end.

And of course Sati is foreshadowing what will happen at the end. In fact, she tells all the story in one sentence.

Sati: "Good morning".

Starcow you are trying to explain something tat's good.Before you do that make your mind to stick to single thing

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Sati is a computer program

you said sati is a program.

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Sati's purpose is to show Neo that machines are not so different from humans and that they are evolving... machines are no longer cold-hearted mosters... they can share love.

Here you said that she is a machine

Well you should know something programs and machines are not same."smith,oracle,seraph and sati are programs".And "sentinels are machines".

starcrow wrote:

Sati is no "new" Oracle or something like that. She's also no "new" One or similar. Sati is a computer program that was created by her parents out of a need. She' is because of a desire of her parents. Of course, the machines cannot understand that as that need is similar to the need for choice. Both irrational but necessary for humans… and becoming more and more necessary for machines as well, as they are evolving. For the story, Sati's purpose is to show Neo that machines are not so different from humans and that they are evolving... machines are no longer cold-hearted mosters... they can share love. Machines and programs got a new face. The face of a small, friendly, warm-hearted, smiling Indian girl. This is a connection for Neo and all mandkind. There is the possibility for a bridge between humans and machines and there is a new way that can be explored. Therefore, it is worthwhile not to destroy the machines, but to seek... peace. I believe that the Mobile scene helped Neo to make his decision to walk the path to the end. And of course Sati is foreshadowing what will happen at the end. In fact, she tells all the story in one sentence. Sati: "Good morning".

Good stuff Starcrow. I think you are on to something.

CHAITANYA wrote:

Well you should know something programs and machines are not same."smith,oracle,seraph and sati are programs". And "sentinels are machines".

Sorry for that. But in fact, there is not much difference. A machine is a program with a physical body in the "Real World".

Normally, I throw that all together. What I always mean are entities with AI. No matter whether a machine or a program.

Sentinals or simple service programs are not meant. They have no intelligence, no self-awareness etc.

There is lot's of difference between machines and programs starcow.machines are like hardware they can't think on their own.They do what ever the software tells them to do.Like sentinels they can't think.And the programs in matrix are A.I they could alter their code but can't think as humans.Because you could see it youself .Even though Agent smith got superior code than Neo in matrix,the ultimate decesion is in the hands of Neo a human.Artifical intellegence cannot match with Natural intellegence in any regards.

CHAITANYA wrote:

There is lot's of difference between machines and programs starcow.machines are like hardware they can't think on their own.

Disagree. The hardware is just part of the machine, just like your cell matierial is a part of you. But a "machine" also has a programming. That is the program. A machine may consist of many programs, some stupid ones and/or AI ones.

Deus Ex is a machine. It has a hardware body. But I doubt that Deus Ex is only a dumb one. It is AI as well.

Now, if machine plugs into the Matrix, the program may have the ability to enter the Matrix and move around. It may even have a RSI.

What is different with the Merovinger and other programs in the Matrix is that they have no machine to go into. They have no physical body. But basically that would be possible if Mero knows how to operate a machine body. Then the Merovinger would load into a physical machine body and walk around in the desert of the Real.

Therefore, being a machine or a program does not yet say anything about being intelligent or dumb. There are dumb machines and dumb programs as well as AI machines and AI programs. The difference is that a machine cannot live without a program just as the body cannot live without the mind.

CHAITANYA wrote:

Artifical intellegence cannot match with Natural intellegence in any regards.

I would disagree again. In the Mobile Ave scene, Rama-Kandra gives Neo a lesson regarding love. Now, if AI can give a human a lesson regarding feelings, then that's what I call equal levels.

CHAITANYA wrote:

Ramakandra said these words he is merely a program he doesn't know the purpose of sati so he says like that his daughter no purpose

Rama-Kandra: I love my daughter very much. I find her to be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But where we are from, that is not enough. Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted.

Rama-Kandra has created Sati; he, above all, must know that it happened for nothing but love.
For that reason he is very aware that she is about to be deleted. So is the Oracle, who even sacrificed her original shell to the Merovingian to save her:

GHOST: Can you tell me what happened to you?
ORACLE: Two programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my original shell to the Merovingian.
GHOST: Why did they do that?
ORACLE: For love, and for the life of their child.
GHOST: You knew about it, and yet you let it happen?
ORACLE: I had to.
GHOST: Why?
ORACLE: Because the child is important. I can't tell you why, but I believe that one day the child will change both our world and your world forever.
(ETM transcript kalime.com...)

CHAITANYA wrote:

Ramakandra says that it is his karma to meet neo at trainstation and it is also the karma of Sati and neo to meet each other

Rama-Kandra speaks of karma, but not in regard to the meeting of Neo and Sati:

Sati: My name is Sati. Your name is Neo. My papa says you're not supposed to be here. He says you must be lost.
(...)
Rama-Kandra: Sati! Come here, darling. Leave the poor man in peace.
(...)
Rama-Kandra: I do not want to be cruel, Kamala. He may never see another face for the rest of his life.


As for karma,... it is his and Kamala's karma he talks about:

Rama-Kandra: She promised she would look after Sati after we said goodbye.
Neo: Goodbye? You're not staying with her?
Rama-Kandra: It is not possible. Our arrangement with the Frenchman was for our daughter only. My wife and I must return to our world.
Neo: Why?
Rama-Kandra: That is our karma.
Neo: You believe in karma?
Rama-Kandra: Karma's a word. Like 'love.' A way of saying 'what I am here to do'....

CHAITANYA wrote:

So obviously she has purpose to guide neo.

Sati's meeting with Neo may serve a purpose, but she hasn't been created for a purpose. And, I believe, the fact that she hasn't been created for a purpose, makes her - and her meeting with Neo - so important:

I believe that love, or as Rama-Kandra expresses it: ...it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies....is nothing new to the machine world. We are given a hint to that effect in Reloaded:

Persephone: You love her; she loves you; it's all over you both. A long time ago, I knew what that felt like. I want to remember it... (...) Yes, that's it...I envy you, but such a thing is not meant to last.

So far, in the machine world, it was purpose standing in love's way. Either by not allowing unconditioned love and thus eventually compromising/perverting it, as we see in Merv and Persephone. Or by destroying the result of love -> deletion of programs without purpose.

Purpose binds. Even if a program unplugs from the system, it can't break free from its purpose. Smith is proof of that.
But how about a program, which isn't bound to any purpose?
There is another meaning to the word "Sati". In Buddhism it's meaning is "mindfulness":

Mindfulness is called sati. Because of strenuous effort mindfulness becomes continuous, constant and powerful. When sati, mindfulness, becomes constant and powerful then your mind is well concentrated on any mental process or physical process which is observed. Unless mindfulness is continuous and powerful you won't gain any deep concentration. Only when mindfulness becomes continuous and constant and powerful then your concentration becomes better and better, deeper and deeper.
buddhanet.net...

A program as Sati is, free from any purpose, is pure potentiality.

And Neo, upon meeting her, recognizes this potential in her. He may not yet be fully aware of how, but, I believe, somewhere in his subconscious, the meaning of the Oracle's words: "I believe that one day the child will change both our world and your world forever" has become present.

We know that Neo's sacrifice has evolved the Matrix, beautifully expressed by Sati's first sunrise. And, as we know from MXO, she goes on creating sunrises, new beginnings, but she still needs to practice....

matrix-explained.com...

"Only when mindfulness becomes continuous and constant and powerful then your concentration becomes better and better, deeper and deeper" (see quote above)

Thanks to Neo, Sati has the chance to become continuous and powerful.

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Sati's meeting with Neo may serve a purpose, but she hasn't been created for a purpose.

Well you are not sure here.You must stick to one thing here whether she has purpose or not.

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I believe that love, or as Rama-Kandra expresses it: ...it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies....is nothing new to the machine world. We are given a hint to that effect in Reloaded:

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Persephone: You love her; she loves you; it's all over you both. A long time ago, I knew what that felt like. I want to remember it... (...) Yes, that's it...I envy you, but such a thing is not meant to last.

And you were speaking about love perhaps there is another scene which is related to love, the scene where trinity,seraph and morpheous meets merv
Do you believe you need these many scenes on love.
It's Sati who talks to Neo first.You mean to say Sati can meet Neo alone.As she is still a kid her parents must help her to meet him.And it's karma of Neo to meet Sati.

CHAITANYA wrote:

tozy wrote: Sati's meeting with Neo may serve a purpose, but she hasn't been created for a purpose. Well you are not sure here.You must stick to one thing here whether she has purpose or not.

I am very sure. There is a big difference between having being created for a purpose,.... and serving a purpose at a particular moment.

CHAITANYA wrote:

tozy wrote: I believe that love, or as Rama-Kandra expresses it: ...it is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies....is nothing new to the machine world. We are given a hint to that effect in Reloaded: Quote: Persephone: You love her; she loves you; it's all over you both. A long time ago, I knew what that felt like. I want to remember it... (...) Yes, that's it...I envy you, but such a thing is not meant to last. And you were speaking about love perhaps there is another scene which is related to love, the scene where trinity,seraph and morpheous meets merv Do you believe you need these many scenes on love.

To prove my point that the love between Rama-Kandra and Kamala is not a novum in the program world,... yes.

CHAITANYA wrote:

It's Sati who talks to Neo first.You mean to say Sati can meet Neo alone.

No, I don't mean to say Sati could meet Neo alone. Rather I mean to say that her parents brought her to Mobil Ave for another reason but meeting Neo:

Neo: Is that what you're doing here?
(...)
Rama-Kandra: The answer is simple. I love my daughter very much. I find her to be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But where we are from, that is not enough. Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted. I went to the Frenchman to save my daughter.

And now he is waiting with his family at Mobil Ave for the trainman to take his daughter to her refuge inside the Matrix.

CHAITANYA wrote:

And it's karma of Neo to meet Sati.

The relevant question, however, is,.... has she been created for that purpose? To meet Neo,.... and to guide him?

CHAITANYA wrote:

As she is still a kid her parents must help her to meet him.

So you believe that her parents brought her to Mobil Ave so that she could meet Neo?
What did Rama-Kandra say to make you believe that? Could you give us a quote?

Do you mean to say without Sati they(Ramakandra and kamala) would have met Neo.Do you think there could be some purpose behind their meeting without sati.He says that's his karma.In the sense meeting Neo through Sati.

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Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted. I went to the Frenchman to save my daughter.

Ramakandra is just a program.He doesn't know anything about future.You could clearly understand from his words that he himself thought Sati has no purpose.He doesn't know the purpose of Sati.And still he doesn't know the purpose of Sati so he says that it's his karma to meet Neo.Infact it's a purpose of Sati to meet Neo and the meeting place is Mobil ave.He says he went to Oracle first.Oracle must have known Sati's purpose.So she must have adviced him to smuggle her through Mobil ave.Infact Oracle knows Neo would be lost there.So that would be their meeting place.

CHAITANYA wrote:

Do you mean to say without Sati they(Ramakandra and kamala) would have met Neo. Do you think there could be some purpose behind their meeting without sati.

I mean to say that without Sati, Rama-Kandra and Kamala wouldn't even have been at Mobil Ave. Their sole reason for being there was to save their daughter from deletion.

CHAITANYA wrote:

He says that's his karma. In the sense meeting Neo through Sati.

As I understand it, he says it is his karma to return to the machine world, instead of staying in the Matrix together with his daughter:

Rama-Kandra: She promised she would look after Sati after we said goodbye.
Neo: Goodbye? You're not staying with her?
Rama-Kandra: It is not possible. Our arrangement with the Frenchman was for our daughter only. My wife and I must return to our world.
Neo: Why?
Rama-Kandra: That is our karma.

CHAITANYA wrote:

Ramakandra is just a program.He doesn't know anything about future.You could clearly understand from his words that he himself thought Sati has no purpose.He doesn't know the purpose of Sati.And still he doesn't know the purpose of Sati so he says that it's his karma to meet Neo.Infact it's a purpose of Sati to meet Neo and the meeting place is Mobil ave.He says he went to Oracle first.Oracle must have known Sati's purpose.So she must have adviced him to smuggle her through Mobil ave.Infact Oracle knows Neo would be lost there.So that would be their meeting place.

I guess we have a misunderstanding here, based on a different definition of "purpose". Let me explain to you my understanding:

I differentiate between karma and purpose.
According to Smith, in the machine world "without purpose we would not exist". Rama-Kandra backs this up with his statement that "Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted"
Programs usually are created for a purpose. They are bound to their purpose, their purpose is supposed to be their karma. Rama-Kandra, again, backs this up with his statement that:

Rama-Kandra: My wife and I must return to our world.
Neo: Why?
Rama-Kandra: That is our karma.

They have been created as power plant systems manager for recycling operations and interactive software programmer. It is their karma to fulfill this job.

However, we know from her creator, that Sati has been created without a purpose:

Rama-Kandra: I love my daughter very much. I find her to be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But where we are from, that is not enough. Every program that is created must have a purpose; if it does not, it is deleted. I went to the Frenchman to save my daughter.

If her purpose were her karma, it would be her karma to be deleted.
This suggests that her karma is independent from her purpose. Or, as I believe, that her karma is very much affected by the fact that she does NOT have a purpose.

Why so? And why does the Oracle believe that "one day the child will change both our world and your world forever."?

Purpose binds and limits. Being created for a purpose defines the nature of a program. We see this clearly in the exiles. Even though they have been unplugged from the system, they cannot change what or who they are. The purpose they have been created for, defines their excistence, either in a perverted way, as in Merv and Persephone,... or in a good way, as in Seraph.

Having been created without a purpose, however, gives a program full potential to grow.
Sati is such a program. She has been created without purpose... and she is a product of love. That's why I said a few posts above, that Sati is pure potentiality.
We see that - after Sati has been delivered to the Matrix - the Oracle acts as a teacher to her.

Oracle: That's it. That's the secret. You've got to use your hands.
Sati: Why?
Oracle: Cookies need love like everything does.

With the Oracle as a teacher, Sati will grow into the program that "one day (...) will change both our world and your world forever", in a world that has been evolved through Neo's sacrifice.

So, as I understand it, the meeting between Neo and Sati has been their karma -> their fates are inseperably entwined. But it was not the purpose Sati has been created for by the system -> karma transcends purpose (as we also see in Smith)
And I believe that Sati definitely has not been created to guide Neo.

Her existence, not her guidance, does help Neo understand.
And his sacrifice evolves the Matrix into a world where she can grow for the good.
-> inseperably entwined to evolve the world

starcrow wrote:

Morpheus doesn't trust blue-pills either. Morpheus: "If you are not one of us, you are one of them." If she was a blue pill and not yet freed from the Matrix, then the system would be able to track and monitor her. She could turn into an agent in no time. And Morpheus knows this. So he really must put a great deal of trust in her and believe that she (plus her assistants) is able to shield her activites from the Matrix systems. So this question is a bit of a tricky one...

Before Reloaded/Revolutions were released I always assumed that the Oracle was in a state similiar to Neo when he is first taken to his moment of true choice (blue versus red pill). The resistance had scanned her for bugs and what not, and thought that she was relatively safe. Perhaps the importance of her never leaving that apartment was because it had added security on it (just my own guesses when there were no sequels). I also assumed the Oracle was a human who had been too old to remove from the Matrix when she'd first come of awareness.

I assumed that the resistance believed her to be exactly what she was, a guide, an amazingly intuitive and maybe even supernatural being. I think they just didn't realize she was a program. After all, it is very clear in Reloaded that Neo has no idea that she is a program until that meeting. If Morpheus and the Zionists knew, wouldn't he have told Neo by then? It seems like a pretty far stretch to think that Morpheus already knew she was a program from the beginning and never bothered to mention it to Neo.

I also don't think that Morpheus knew that the Oracle is a program. Of course not. If he knew, he wouldn't trust her.

But I just think it's a bit remarkable that the question of her origin and who she is has never been addressed. In case she is a red-pill rebel, she must have a physical body outside the power plant.... somewhere...(?) In case she's a blue-pill, the is a potential enemy because she system has a certain degree of control over her. Either way, this should raise some questions. But in the movie, it's just given that she is "the Oracle".

This issue about what Morpheus thinks she is is bothering me for a long time now, but I can't find an answer that really satisfies me.

Anyway, I also would assume that Morpheus thinks she's a blue-pill with(but aware of everything) with remarkable abilites who is able to shield herself from the supervision of the system thanks to her knowlege. I just don't have a better explanation right now...

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Shes' very old. She's been with us since the beginning...of the resistance.

Morph doesn't really go into too much detail with Neo on the subject. Not even Trin does this. Morph wants Neo to 'walk through the door on his own'.

You both are having problems with trying to reason out how Morph could think anything else about her than that she is a program. And I think you know why. Examine the above quote and see if it gives you a clue

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Her existence, not her guidance, does help Neo understand. And his sacrifice evolves the Matrix into a world where she can grow for the good. -> inseperably entwined to evolve the world

Neo didn't understand that after the Mobil Ave meeting. And he didn't reach that conclusion after seeing her again at Oracle's place. I can't agree with what you're saying.

But I do agree with the point you are trying to make. Their is a big difference between the assigned/intended purpose and the higher Purpose / Path of Neo being worked out.

intell wrote:

Quote: Her existence, not her guidance, does help Neo understand. And his sacrifice evolves the Matrix into a world where she can grow for the good. -> inseperably entwined to evolve the world Neo didn't understand that after the Mobil Ave meeting. And he didn't reach that conclusion after seeing her again at Oracle's place. I can't agree with what you're saying.

I agree, that's why I said in my first post in this thread:

"And Neo, upon meeting her, recognizes this potential in her. He may not yet be fully aware of how, but, I believe, somewhere in his subconscious, the meaning of the Oracle's words: "I believe that one day the child will change both our world and your world forever" has become present."