»Satori«

tozy wrote:

Feral Boy wrote: I believe that the only true path is through Jesus Christ. Feral, could you explain a bit about your understanding of this path?

Tozy, I'll give you my current understanding of how it works.

I believe that all humanity is mortal, and that when you die there is not some part of you that continues to live. I do not believe that a person is made up of a physical body, a spirit body and an immortal soul. I believe that a physical body plus spirit (which in the original Hebrew is breath) equals a living soul. A soul is not an ethereal substance containing your mind and consciousness, it is a word that describes the totality of your being--including your physical body. In other words, you don't HAVE a soul, you ARE a soul. A soul is mortal. A soul can die. When you die, your consciousness ceases to exist and all that is left of you is a rotting body that is now devoid of spirit/breath.

This is not the common definition of the English word "soul" but it is the common definition of the Hebrew word "nephesh" which is the word from which the translated word "soul" is derived. Centuries of traditions have changed the original meaning as it was originally understood.

I believe that God desires that all humanity be freed from this state of mortality--to live as immortals. The current state of mortality is a form of imperfection. This imperfection is what Christians call sin. The word sin means "to miss the mark." If you're going to pass from mortality to immortality, you must deal with your imperfection.

I believe that Jesus is the only being who possesses immortality. As such he is not subject to imperfection and its accompanying weaknesses. However, because of the Law of God, he is not able to simply grant this immortality to humanity. A price has to be paid. Imperfection is a flaw, and it cannot be ignored or swept under the carpet. It must be dealt with and a price must be paid. In accounting terms, the books must be balanced.

Humanity is unable to fix this problem themselves. The only thing an imperfect mortal being has to look forward to in their future is to die, never to live again. That will balance the books. But God desires that they live forever and never die again. And since humanity is unable to fix this problem themselves, the only hope is through an external source. In this case it is through Jesus, who is able to balance the books for all of humanity by trading his immortality for death. This trade is viewed by God as fair and just. He is willing to grant immortality to imperfect mortals in exchange for the the death of one perfect being.

Jesus gave up his immortality and took on the likeness of mortal flesh. At that point he had the ability to die. And he did so, willingly laying down his life so that others would not have to be dead forever. However, that is only half the story.

After paying the price for all of humanity, God gave immortality back to his son. Jesus was then resurrected, with a new body. He became the first one who was raised from the dead into an immortal physical body--something that had never existed before. This immortal body was put on like the way you put on clothes, and it swallowed up the old mortal body. The only physical bodies that had existed up to that point were mortal. Now Jesus was able to grant this same resurrection to humanity. But instead of performing this, he returned to the right hand of his Father in heaven.

Eventually all humanity will experience this resurrection. And not just humanity, but the entire universe will be remade. The last enemy that Jesus defeats is death, and this will happen when everyone who ever existed is given immortality. But not everyone will be given immortality at the same time. It will happen in stages. Jesus was the first one, and when he returns from heaven, he will grant immortality to those who trusted in him and were either killed during the apocalypse or survived until the end. Those who survive until the end will be the lucky few who get to receive their immortality without dying first. Jesus will reign on Earth for a thousand years, with these immortal followers reigning with him. When the thousand years are over, the universe will be remade, and the rest of humanity who trusted in Jesus will be granted immortality and exist with him for an undetermined time. And at some point after that, Jesus will grant immortality to the rest of humanity who never believed in him. At that point, when death has been completely defeated because everyone now has immortality and no one can ever die, God will be all in all.

How do you see all that playing out in the trilogy, Feral Boy? Or do you see it playing out in the trilogy at all? Just curious

WOW. I just went through this topic from the beggining,.... apparently too fast . Now i have a headache. Great

Anyway i managed to understand (its late in the morning here....sorry for being linear ) Cap's issue with what Larry said.

Very nice conversation by all 3-4 of you (sorry if i forgot someone, but i didnt mention names so you dont know whom it is i forgot hoho ) , but in the end,...

i think i agree with comet. : " After reading the transcript, it seems he was using 'Satori' as an illustrative term rather than a definative. "

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It strikes me this sequence was designed for laughs, and Larry's speech deliberately over-technical. So, if everyone can infer the basic meaning from this usage (sudden enlightenment), why stickle over detail?

Exactly. And ofcourse the intergral school issue , also helps see in what way he used the term. Also he may just have made a mistake.

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If then, each of us is not finite, then it stands that all of us are not of this linear time. Linear time is an illusion.

"Must you be so linear Jean-Luc ? "
-Q- (Star Trek The Next Generation).

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Similarly, if we are not finite beings (as we all are not, though we unenlightened don't realize it), then we are not confined by this time line.

The statement that we are not finite beings (upon which all this thing is based) is what intrigues me. Why do people believe it. And how do they think non-finite-ness (is there such a word?) is ?

CaptPostMod wrote:

How do you see all that playing out in the trilogy, Feral Boy? Or do you see it playing out in the trilogy at all? Just curious

That's a good question, Cap. You know, when I try to understand the Matrix, I find it much better to look at things from the writer's point of view rather than from my own. Obviously I'll be using my own point of view as a starting point, because you can't help it. But overall, I don't see my theological worldview as being pervasive in the Matrix mythology at all.

There really isn't a place in the Matrix story for the moral concept of salvation from sin. Salvation as it's presented is much more of the Gnostic flavor, where you need to "free your mind" and "know yourself." During a moment of idol worship from the Kid, Neo tells him, "You saved yourself." This is in stark contrast to the worldview to which I hold, in which my salvation has nothing to do with my own efforts, knowledge, wisdom or enlightenment and everything to do with the sacrifice of my Messiah on my behalf. And even though there is a very Christ-like sacrifice at the end of Revolutions (complete with a neat-o cross on his chest in case we didn't get it), it is not for the sake of cleansing the sins of humanity (or Exiles, or anybody for that matter), it is to secure a political peace between man and machine. Obviously there's more to it than that and I'm grossly oversimplifying it, but I'm sure you'd agree with the point I'm trying to make.

The continuing storyline in the Matrix Online game has a chance to lean more toward the worldview I described, where humanity is "resurrected" from the pods and the machines with them. I've already posted my views on how I think this might play out, but we'll see. I believe that where the Matrix storyline is ultimately headed is a blending of the two species into a new third. At least, that's as close to a Biblical resurrection body that I could think of (still trying to conform the Matrix to my own thinking I guess, oh well).

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I believe that where the Matrix storyline is ultimately headed is a blending of the two species into a new third

The Borg were right then? Resistance is futile

The Therion wrote:

Quote: I believe that where the Matrix storyline is ultimately headed is a blending of the two species into a new third The Borg were right then? Resistance is futile

lol, yeah that would really suck. Devolving from free-thinking individuals into mindless drones. And instead of the Borg Queen, you'd have some cranky old guy in a white suit. Not good.

Or maybe all three sides in MxO (now there are more developing) will learn to live together and learn from each other, Feralboy.

Hey, Feral. Why don't you show RainKing in here ->

intell wrote:

Or maybe all three sides in MxO (now there are more developing) will learn to live together and learn from each other, Feralboy.

I don't see that happening without some sort of major change. I personally don't believe people are capable of lasting peace, at least not as they are right now. There has to be a major shift in the makeup of humanity for this to happen. Do you agree? And if so, how do you see this happening in the Matrix story?

intell wrote:

Hey, Feral. Why don't you show RainKing in here -> mxoboards.station.sony.com... ...what is being said here: matrix-explained.com... I'm sure he will have a comment.

Sorry, I quit the game a couple months ago. I got too busy with other things and figured I'd never come back to it. So I don't have access to the boards at the moment.

Feral Boy wrote:

This is in stark contrast to the worldview to which I hold, in which my salvation has nothing to do with my own efforts, knowledge, wisdom or enlightenment and everything to do with the sacrifice of my Messiah on my behalf.

I think there are several moments of messianic salvation with-in the trilogy. One would be when Morpheus is on top of that truck with the Keymaker and he looks up at the sky and prays, "Neo, if you're out there, I could use some help," and Neo swoops down from the sky to save him. Another would be when the Kid shoots open the gate in Revolutions while praying, "Neo, I believe."

This isn't necessarily the type of salvation you're describing but it seems similiar? And even though Neo often verbally rejects being anyone's "lord" he always seems to answer their prayers anyway.

I don't know if you're familiar with Pure Land Buddhism? It's one of the largest schools of Buddhism in the world, and it centers faith not in the historic Buddha but in a mythical Buddha named Amida. Amida was a savior who lived long ago and on passing into a Bodhisattva state vowed not to disperse completely into Nirvana himself until every single mind in all existence had been brought to freedom. Pure Land Buddhists are allowed to be the most unenlightened miserable people but if they sincerely call on Amida's name, he will lead them to Nirvana. "Namu Amida Butsu."

There's a great book on this school of Buddhism called "Bits of Rubble into Gold." amazon.com...

Obviously doesn't line up with your thoughts perfectly, but I can seem some correlation there

I'll be honest with you, Cap--I'm extremely unfamiliar with Buddhism and things related to it. The most exposure I've ever had to Buddhist thinking is actually on this forum. And I gotta tell ya, the more I read the more confused I get. I've really tried to wrap my brain around it, but it's just not the way I'm wired (Western thinking coupled with a traditional Christian upbringing). I'm not saying that I'll never look into it more deeply, I'm just saying it's slow and arduous for me. Any good suggestions for websites that act as primers for Buddhist thinking? I love to do most of my research via websites.