»Satori«

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True. And very good observation!

The W's are probably trying to hint at the way to break free of the controls we live under in society today. Reexamine why we do what we do.

CaptPostMod wrote:

Satori is a Japanese term for a type of Buddhist enlightenment. At first I didn't want to see that this is what the ending of the trilogy signafies. As a whole, the Matrix trilogy is very non-Buddhist. Virtually no Buddhist references are made. And more importantly, Neo is given "Attman" principles in the games, which is a Hindu idea that is very heavily countered in Buddhism.

I understand the trilogy as an expression of integral spirituality:
beliefnet.com...
matrixfans.net...

For that reason I don't think we should look - in interpretating the trilogy - at the differences between Hinduism and Buddhism (and Christianity as well); rather there is much to find in their common ground.
This is emphazised by the fact that the moment called "Satori" by Larry, is celebrated in the movies with lines from the Hindu Upanishads (Neodämmerung/Navras)

According to Buddhanet, Satori means:
"Satori: (Japanese) A state of consciousness in Zen Buddhism beyond the plane of discrimination and differentiation."
buddhanet.net...
Even though there are - especially if you ask a Buddhist - differences between Moksha and Nirvana, this above definition of Satori can also be applied to Hindu enlightenment.

Larry says:
"At this pont of the story Neo stands in the verge of Satori, ready to resolve the paradox of choice and choicelessness, of free will versus fate. But that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which (...) nature of truth..."

In regard to that I suggest that you read this essay, "fate and free will", by the Indian philosopher Sri Aurobindo:
hinduwebsite.com...
An excerpt:
"This is the great truth now dawning on the world, that Will is the thing which moves the world and that Fate is merely a process by which Will fulfils itself.

But in order to feel its mastery of Nature, the human soul must put itself into communion with the infinite and universal Spirit. Its will must be one with the universal Will. The human soul is one with the universal Spirit, but in the body it stands out as something separate and unconnected, because a certain freedom is permitted it in order that the swabhava of things may be diversely developed in different bodies. In using this freedom the soul may do it ignorantly or knowingly.

If it uses it ignorantly, it is not really free, for ignorance brings with it the illusion of enslavement to Nature. USED KNOWINGLY, THE FREEDOM OF THE SOUL BECOMES ONE WITH SURRENDER TO THE UNIVERSAL WILL. Either apparent bondage to Fate in Nature or realised freedom from Nature in the universal freedom and lordship of the Paramatman and Parameshwara, this is the choice offered to the human soul."

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CaptPostMod wrote:

Satori is not very connected to Hinduism.

I didn't say that Satori is connected to Hinduism. What I said is that the description of Satori given at Buddhanet: "A state of consciousness (...) beyond the plane of discrimination and differentiation" can also be applied to Hindu enlightenment.
Of course there is more to both, Hindu and Buddhist enlightenment. But this aspect they share.

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But I know from the scripture of my religion that Hinduism taught that enlightenment was the ultimate realization of the soul. This is very different from the Buddhist idea of "enlightenment." In fact, Shakyamuni himself taught that this Hindi concept of enlightenment is wrong.

During Shakyamuni's (or Gautama Buddha's) lifetime, many of the important Hindu scriptures haven't even been written.

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Japan is a long way from India.

Sure, but the Buddha was born and lived all his life in India. India, its culture and religion, were the point of departure for Gautama Buddha.
The prevailing religion in India during the Buddha's time was Brahmanism. The Hinduism we know today had yet to be developed, and Buddha's teaching had an influence on this development.

This is not to say that Buddhism and Hinduism are more or less the same. Quite the contrary. But I believe they do share some aspects:

As opposed to Hinduism, Buddhism denies the concept of the soul, an eternal kernel. But, Buddha tells us that: "Bliss, yes bliss, my friends, is Nirvana."
Hinduism teaches the concept of the two selves: the lower self, the sense of I, the individual ego (Jivatman); and the higher Self, the universal Self, pure consciousness beyond the plane of discrimination and differentiation (Atman/Brahman).
In nondual Hinduism, the individual soul - individual, because separated from its true nature through delusion about this its true nature - upon enlightenment, realizes its true nature as being not an individual identity, but the All. The "eternal kernel" is not an individual identity, but a representation of the All within the individual -> its underlying true nature.
To reach this realisation, the separated - because deluded - soul has to extinguish the source and heart of the illusion: the ego, the sense of I.
Hindus call this surrender; nondual Hindus surrender the sense of individuality to the realisation that they are NOT individual entities, but one with the universal soul/Brahman.
(In how far Hinduism's being Brahman can be equated to whatever experiences eternal bliss in Nirvana, is another discussion).

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Hindi and western "enlightenment" is a goal to attain. But as the sacred Heart Sutra (something I chant in church every week) says (in translation) "There is no attainment with nothing to attain."

Yet, in both religions/philosophies people's path is that of attaining a higher (and in the end the ultimate) state of consciousness.

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Satori is often reached in scriptures and parables by very realistic people who have very realistic gates slammed on their very realistic feet or hear realistic bamboo poles being struck on realistic rocks. It is not generally reached by messianic beings in battles with fantastical gods or spirits.

Yet, Buddha, prior to reaching enlightenment, was tempted by Mara.
Do you consider Mara to be a fantastical God or spirit? Or would you understand him as a metaphor for an aspect of our individuality that has to be overcome in order to reach a higher state of consciousness?

I don't consider the Matrix fights actual fights, but mental fights. Neo's fights are those forces within him striving for enlightenment, overcoming the deluding forces of the illusion -> mediation.
Understanding it that way, I think there are some correlations between the fight Neo-Smith (whom I consider to be a metaphor for Neo's ego) and the confrontation Buddha-Mara.

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Correlations can be made, but to redefine specific terms so drastically, Larry would have to defend his stance for doing so. Why not use a Hindi term for enlightenment if he wants to express an idea from the Upanishads?

I am not Larry, so I cannot speak for him. I can only give you my interpretation. My interpretation is based on the integral approach, which is not to point out the differences, but the correlations:
When Neo starts his fight with Smith, he stands on the verge of overcoming discrimination and differentiation. He will soon extinguish himself as a separate entity by extinguishing his ego (Smith). Smith being exploded/extinguished by light is a metaphor for Neo surrendering his individuality (illusion) to a higher (the ultimate) state of consciousness.
Would you really call this a redefinition of the term "Satori"?

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CaptPostMod wrote:

tozy wrote: Would you really call this a redefinition of the term "Satori"? Totally, yes. (...) Satori (which doesn't make much sense and takes tons of defense to convince a Buddhist is the correct term for the situation)

Could you explain this some more? Why is the use of the term "Satori" in regard to Neo's sudden realisation upon Smith's line "Everything that has a beginning has an end" invalid?

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The first enlightenment that Shakyamuni experiences is not typically given as a story of one achieving Satori. Highly mythical Buddhism (as I tried to say in the last post) is not usually used in Zen Buddhism while explaining Satori. Those in the state of Satori rarely have super powers. It is a much more practical enlightenment. More on par with the metaphorical lightbulb flicking on (or off as the case may be) in your head then with sudden and total mythic superhero enlightenment.

I am not sure what makes you mention superhero enlightenment in response to my post....
As I've stated above, I understand both confrontations, Neo-Smith and Buddha-Mara as metaphors for practical enlightenment; a metaphorical - not literal(!) - expression of extinguishing that which stands in their way towards enlightenment. No superhero enligthenment involved for me.

As for the poor communication:
You seem to be very uncomfortable with correlations between the different spiritual traditions. Integral philosophy/spirituality is not. Quite the contrary: it blossoms on the common ground of the spiritual traditions, and science, and develops them further into a philosophy of its own.
Total crap? Maybe. But we have to acknowledge the fact that everything is subject to development, such as the original Indian Buddhism has transformed/developed into Zen through the influence of Taoism (I know,... this is a very sketchy explanation for this process )
Satori is a term used quite frequently by integral spirituality, as are many other terms from the different spiritual traditions.

CaptPostMod wrote:

In my religion (philosophy, how rude and dismissive are you)

Buddhism is well known for its tolerance...
Of course, I apologize for this very rude behaviour!
buddhanet.net...

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CaptPostMod, I've been following this thread, and I wanted to post to what I thought Larry was making a reference. Keep in mind that I had never heard of the word "Satori" until this thread, so I hope you'll bear with me.

The little bit that I learned about Satori after doing some real quick research on the Internet is that it is a sudden enlightenment, as opposed to a gradual one. Every article I've looked at, while varying slightly from each other, all make this point--so I'm assuming this is the main idea behind Satori.

When I think of the scene where Smith says, "Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo," and then Neo states that Smith had always been right about the inevitability of his death, I take that to mean that Neo had a sudden bit of enlightenment upon hearing those words from Smith. One of the articles I read about Satori stated that certain spoken phrases can bring about Satori.

My question is this: what was it about this scene that is non-Satori? Please understand this is not meant as a challenge, but rather an attempt on my part to learn more about the concept. I love this forum and I love learning about other religions, philosphies, and worldviews. So please don't stay silent on the subject. Keep talking and we'll work this thing out.

By the way, I love the various backgrounds of all the people in your family. How exciting, confusing, frustrating and mind-expanding all at the same time!

CaptPostMod,
rarely have I experienced open dislike during a discussion on a subject on the internet, and I certainly wouldn't have expected it from someone who considers himself a Buddhist.

You accuse me of...

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you, who seems to be not involved in my belief system, telling me what my belief system believes (...) you trying to educate me about a religion I have followed devoutely for many years without your being willing to listen to me try to explain that religion to you in return

... and yet you ignore my...

"Could you explain this some more? Why is the use of the term "Satori" in regard to Neo's sudden realisation upon Smith's line "Everything that has a beginning has an end" invalid?"

... which was meant as an honest question.

I am not taking your accusations lightly, and I think I deserve to understand where I've trailed from simple disagreement on a subject towards unwillingness to listen to you.

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My objection is not to integral religion. It was initially to Larry's trying to get away with sounding smart without actually sounding smart.

In regard to that I can only repeat myself:
"Satori is a term used quite frequently by integral spirituality, as are many other terms from the different spiritual traditions."

Actually, I believe it is another line Larry was referring to. When asked what he was fighting for and given a multiple choice, Neo chose 'the other door' again, so to speak and said "Because I choose to." At this point, Neo is truly in charge. Then his subsequent dialogue and self-sacrifice can speak volumes in the subtext.

As for integralism, what do you believe Larry (and Andy) are doing by linking all these "existing philosophies" together. Showing how they are all related? Then how are they related? Just what message do you think they are sending?

*** May I take this post to remind people that Zen Buddhism is not definitive or representative of Buddhism as a whole. Thaaaank-you! ***

Disclaimer over with, I think by linking several myths from a variety of religions illustrates that there is so much common ground between everything.

It could be read as an anti-war message, in this respect - it's all one, so why bother fighting about the details?

...Heck, that arrow story is coming back to haunt me.

(matrix-explained.com...)

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It is like Superman versus Übermensch. Technically these words have the same roots. Both when broken down mean "above man." But they evoke very different feelings. Superman was given his name in retaliation against the Nazi propoganda utilizing the term Übermensch. You could flip flop the terms in a discussion now if you wanted to, but it would not feel right to someone accustomed to the terms. Technically the words are easily interchangable. But when placed in their proper context switching them unnecessarily is a dangerous proposition. Does that make sense?

I completely understand what you're saying. It's like a Christian using a Bible translation that uses the single word "hell" for three separate and distinct Hebrew and Greek words (Sheol, Hades and Gehenna), each with different meanings (see

tozy wrote:

Larry says: "At this pont of the story Neo stands in the verge of Satori, ready to resolve the paradox of choice and choicelessness, of free will versus fate. But that can only be achieved through an act of surrender, which (...) nature of truth..."

To be pedantic, did he actually say Neo achieves Satori?

Exaaaaaclty Feral (you know your stuff ) and Capt. Contextually what you are saying is true. But concerned as I am about the subtext, I go back to what I am saying (or asking). Why do you think the W's are doing in their use of not only terms like satori, sati, seraph, oracle, and prophecy, but also their uses of the plot in making Neo similar to but different from Jesus, Vishnu, or Buddha, and doing the same with Merv and Satan, Oracle and God, Architect and God and in retrospect Satan, Smith with sin, etc?

*looks like I'm going to have to start that thread soon *

comet wrote:

To be pedantic, did he actually say Neo achieves Satori?

And while you're answering that one, include, if you please, an answer to why 'resolving the paradox of choice and choicelessness, free will vs fate is such a profound discovery. It probably is more like that knock of the staff upon the table that breaks your distraction. Because, perhaps the answer was always there? Hmmm? or because it was never meant to be such a controversy.

...knock knock neo

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And while you're answering that one, include, if you please, an answer to why 'resolving the paradox of choice and choicelessness, free will vs fate is such a profound discovery. It probably is more like that knock of the staff upon the table that breaks your distraction. Because, perhaps the answer was always there? Hmmm? or because it was never meant to be such a controversy.

N-tell, I'm like the student that knows a few facts here and there but is slow to get the point of. I always need things to be pointed out to me, unfortunately. Otherwise I keep running in circles while the teacher shakes his head in dismay. Either give us [me] a hint, or just say it bluntly. Because honestly, you're one or two steps ahead of where my mind is. But I really would like to stretch my mind and learn more. C'mon, N-tell! Toss out a bone!

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From the American heritage Dictionary

Satori: A spiritual awakening sought in Zen Buddhism, often coming suddenly.


From the Matrix Revolutions Script (felt it may help)

SMITH
This is my world! My world!

He dives into Neo who has nothing left and batters him, each bludgeoning blow striking in time with searing bolts of lightning.

He seizes Neo by the thorat, hoisting him up like a rag doll and fires a super-punch that sends Neo flying---

Bouncing down to the earth like a crashing airplane, trenching to a stop.

Smith is about to press his frenzied assault, but he freezes, the image of Neo laying splayed, suddenly familiar.

SMITH
Wait...I've seen this...This is it! This is the end!

He looks at Neo and in a flash of lightning we see the immediate future as Smith stabs his entire fist into Neo's chest.

Smith blinks away the raindrops blurring his vision.

SMITH (CONT'D)
Yes, you were laying right there, just like that...and I...

Another flash and we see the black mirror begin to cover Neo's body.

Smith walks over to Neo who is desperatly clinging to his consciousness as if hanging from the edge of a precipice.

SMITH (CONT'D)
I stand here, right here and I'm supposed to say something...I say...

Again the future flashes in his eyes and he sees Neo's hands buried beneath the gleaming blackness.

SMITH (CONT'D)
Everything that has a beginning, has an end.

The familiar words suddenly clear Neo's mind. He looks up as Smith looks down.

SMITH (CONT'D)
Don't be afraid, Neo.

Neo almost can't believe what he just heard as--

Another flash reveals the liquid obsidian covering Neo's face, but his face is calm, even serene.

SMITH (CONT'D)
What? What did I just say?

In his confusion, he looks to Neo who now understands.

SMITH (CONT'D)
No, no. This isn't right, This can't be right!

One final time, Neo rises to his feet

SMITH (CONT'D)
Get away from me!

NEO
What are you afraid of?

SMITH
It's a trick!

NEO
No, it's what you want. It's why you're here.

SMITH
No!

NEO
You were right, Smith. You were always right.

Rain pours down Smith's tortured face.

NEO (CONT'D)
It was inevitable.

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