»Is The Matrix Real?«

Here is another suppositional example that may shed some light on this topic or complicate it. We may end up heading into a discussion on free will and predestination. When this occurs it can go on forever. Anyhow...

Just imagine that someone knew the future and they wanted to share their M&M's with 12 co-workers. They would already know who was going to say "no" to the offer. They could just not offer the M&M's to these co-workers. But this person decides to offer them to all the co-workers (even the ones that are going to say "no"). This is what I think God does with us. He offers us (everyone) a choice to accept the truth and his gift. Even those who will say "no" will be given a chance. Therefore everyone gets to choose whether or not they accept the gift. The choice is totally ours. We can accept or reject the offer.

Our choice (according to the Christian perspective) determines our eternal future.

I believe that as long as an individual's actions are caused by his own beliefs and longings his actions are free. In the above example the co-workers all have the ability to choose to do what they want to do therefore their actions are free and the choice is theirs.

Well, let's see if this helps or if it causes us to jump headlong into a debate.

Peace

Let's use this M&M example for some non-4 dimensional thinking.

So you have your 12 M&Ms, and you do not know who will want what color or who will flat out reject the M&Ms all together. You go through your office and hand out the M&Ms. Katie takes a green M&M, Josh takes a blue one, Sarah says no thanks, etc. Everyone makes their choices about which M&Ms they are going to take. Now you've been to everyone in your office and they have all made their choices about which M&M to take.

In current 4 dimensional space, that's the end of things. But what if you could travel backwards through the M&M passing out. Like hitting rewind on your video player. So you go back, and Sarah says no thanks, Josh takes a blue one, Katie takes a green M&M. To you, their actions seem pre-ordained. To you, who perceives outside of 4 dimensional space, what they are going to choose is already known. So, does that mean that they have no choice your second time around?

Of course not. Katie chose a green M&M. But her choice exists in a fixed point in 4 dimensional space. If you approach that point from behind (traveling forward in time), it appears that she makes the choice and enjoys the consequences (her green M&M). But if you approach that point from the front (traveling backward in time), you feel that Katie is lead by fate to take the green M&M that you know she will enjoy.

If you understand that original mind exists outside of the fixed line of 4 dimensional travel, then the concepts of choice and fate fall away.

CaptPostMod wrote:

So, does that mean that they have no choice your second time around? Of course not. Katie chose a green M&M. But her choice exists in a fixed point in 4 dimensional space. If you approach that point from behind (traveling forward in time), it appears that she makes the choice and enjoys the consequences (her green M&M). But if you approach that point from the front (traveling backward in time), you feel that Katie is lead by fate to take the green M&M that you know she will enjoy.

Now, that's the perfect (to me anyway) explanation of Neo's choice to save Trinity in Reloaded! (works much better for me than your explanation in the Satori-thread)

Oracle:
You are looking at the world without time
(...)
We can never see past the choices we don't understand
(...)
You've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.

Know thyself.

I think it is good to see a lot of posts on this thread.

But the thing that i disagree with is bringing reloaded and revolutions into this topic.

The first movie is the one which gets you thinking about is the matrix real. The other 2 movies kill this idea with giving too much away. Killing the first movie while it is at it.

M2 and m3 go way too far from a story line which was created to make you wonder about a lot of things.

Someone must not of liked the first movie very much, As they destroyed the plot to something that was so well crafted.

Now i will get you thinking here..

Why would the first movie open up your minds to if the matrix is real. And then why would the author destroy that with going way too far. Remember that m1 was secretive in its approach. And in m2 the machines which deceived the human race are giving all the answers. Seems funny doesnt it?

Here is an idea for you.

Maybe the oracle wrote the first movie, and the bad boss machine wrote m2 and m3..

Its just a thought.

Eddy and the Cap'n make very good points establishing that foreknowledge does not in any way contradict or otherwise interfere with choice/free will and I agree with them. I like the two different angles you both hit it from.

CaptPostMod
God exists outside of what we would consider time and space, thus the choices we make are still our choices albeit known in advance by the Creator of the universe and all its laws of operation.

EddyRocket
His foreknowledge plus our free will/choice equals an even greater manifestation of his mercy and love.

eddyrocket wrote:

This is what I think God does with us. He offers us (everyone) a choice to accept the truth and his gift. Even those who will say "no" will be given a chance. Therefore everyone gets to choose whether or not they accept the gift. The choice is totally ours. We can accept or reject the offer... I believe that as long as an individual's actions are caused by his own beliefs and longings his actions are free. In the above example the co-workers all have the ability to choose to do what they want to do therefore their actions are free and the choice is theirs.

Yes but that is part of it. The Merovingian says that choice is an illusion and cites Morph's and Neo's actions as support for his argument because all too often the choices we make are influenced if not outright forced by outer causes. It is noteworthy that Merv uses cause-and-effect, a real factor rather than the idea of fate, a hypothetical one. Whether someone in the above example chooses to take M&M's or not maybe due to a variety of reasons, yes or no? So it is not a simple choose truth or not with God. He also knows motives right? So he would know not only who will choose but he would know why they will make whatever choice they will make. So if the generous office worker in the example we all like had access to that knowledge, would that influence how and when he extends the offer to the workers? I mean, since he is obviously motivated to extend the offer for a reason. I believe eddy would agree that this is what God is doing too, yes? Now this would really be giving everyone every possible opportunity.

eddyrocket wrote:

Our choice (according to the Christian perspective) determines our eternal future.

His choice, too.

earlier, eddyrocket wrote:

I would speculate that God is limited in what he can do because of our ability to choose.

Nah. Don't speculate that. Someone who has accurate insight into the laws of cause and effect (like whoever created those laws), our future choices, and the motivations for them could just as easily exercise his own choices around these and adapt to them as an agent could dodge bullets. Or like a child plans his weekend around his favourite cartoons.

Now for FirstOne, what in the world does what you just said have to do with the topic of this thread. You have repeated your dissapointments with M2 and M3 in about five threads now. Are you going to make a different point or spam the whole forum?

Ok Choice to me is still on a level, (my level/systems theory explains this) because God allows us to make the choice, and offers us the gifts to either acept or decline, however he is not syncronized with time or space. What this means is that there is no concept of time around god therefore he has the foresight so he may offer you the choice of "Do you want this M&M or not" he already knows what you are going to say/choose, so we as humans are bound to fate. Yes there is choice involved..to a point, however is it really choice if you were predestined to decline (or accept)? To a point possibly, but as i said before we do not have "Absolute" choice, we have a degree of choice. Choice is skeptical because there will always be counter-arguments until we become enlightened.

Keep the Faith

starcrow wrote:

Of course we are living in the real world. This is reality. You might not like it, waiting for something different, longing for adventures and exitements... but in fact what you are living in is reality. Why I am so sure about it? Because reality is defined as this "world". So it is reality by definition. There might be things and facts we do not yet know about reality, but it certainly is real. Real by definition.

Reality is simply what we make it. The way we choose to look at life, or the way we allow others to make us look at life. We create our reality, or our reality is created for us. It is up to us to choose. Probably have something sceptical to say about that huh? Well let's give an example. Televison, radio, space shuttles, space travel, nuclear bombs. All were simply ideas in an individuals head at one point. Science fiction really. But fantasy and science fiction seem to have a tendency of coming to pass over time. We have the ability to create anything we choose to put our minds and resources to. It just seems that the people who put their minds to the control of money, and the control of society through economics, and invisible slavery have won at the moment because everyone chooses to live their reality. Morpheus says clearly after NEO has been brought into the Nebuchaddnezzar that, and NEO asks what is the Matrix, Morpehus answers "the Matrix is CONTROL Neo." We have been effectively, and apparently unstoppably controled by an environment that forces us into slavery. Don't belive me, see what your reality is when you don't pay your bills.

Is the matrix real. or is it not, that is the question. But in my opinion i tyhink it is real. The matrix stands for control as noted by the previous posters. But you only have to look around in the world that we live in to see that we are nothing more thatn sheep, puppets being puppeteered by the matrix. Ruteen, Laws, Government, etc. all keeping us in, and under control.

But wonce you look past these puppeteering fasards then you can see that the world would be a better place. a world that would be free of systematic control.

Also i would like to pose a question. Are the people running these governments, the police the enforce the law. Are the real or are the computer programs designed to represent humans with in the matrix to make everything cosure. Giving the apperance to the humans that are trapped inside the matrix a scence of reality, and that the human mind will not come aware to the fact that the matrix is real.

eddyrocket wrote:

Just imagine that someone knew the future and they wanted to share their M&M's with 12 co-workers. They would already know who was going to say "no" to the offer. They could just not offer the M&M's to these co-workers. But this person decides to offer them to all the co-workers (even the ones that are going to say "no"). This is what I think God does with us. He offers us (everyone) a choice to accept the truth and his gift. Even those who will say "no" will be given a chance. Therefore everyone gets to choose whether or not they accept the gift. The choice is totally ours. We can accept or reject the offer.

Everthing is about choice. But in the case of the matrix, choice can be a bad thing. The truth can often be harsh and scary thing to accept. In the case of Neo he was given a choice to take the red or blue pill. but that was only after he came to relise thast there maybe something wrong with the world that he lived in.

If someone doesn't realise that he is a slave to the system (ie the matrix) then he wont be able to choose, between enslavement or freedom.

And if anyone reading this post is thinking or saying to themselves that "Even the people that haven't realised the matrix still have choice". The answer is NO ! What these people are experiencing is nothing more that mathimatical equations that simulate choice.

Suppose a person in the Matrix makes the choice to commit a murder and pushes his victim off of a 30 story building.

Doesn't that person die in his pod or is he merely a misplaced decimal point in a mathematical equation?

psikeyhackr

psikeyhackr wrote:

Suppose a person in the Matrix makes the choice to commit a murder and pushes his victim off of a 30 story building. Doesn't that person die in his pod or is he merely a misplaced decimal point in a mathematical equation? psikeyhackr

The murder is an equation, and yes the person who is killed dies in his pod in the real world

intell wrote:

EddyRocket His foreknowledge plus our free will/choice equals an even greater manifestation of his mercy and love.

Even if no divine power whatsoever does actively influence a particular choice of yours, how can you have free will, if you make your choice based on your life up to that moment, and in consideration of future consequences.

To stick with the M&M example:
Why would the generous office worker choose not to take it?
Because sweets can cause caries; because he is on a diet; because he is allergic to peanuts...
Or because he has just brushed his teeth; because he just had too much lunch, because due to his genetic conditioning he doesn't like chocolate...

To me - this choice clearly is a part of cause and effect chain.
True free will, to my understanding, is a choice independent from cause and effect.

If there is a God, he may give us the freedom to choose as we like. But we make our choices not as what we truly are, but as a product of our past experiences, and as such we are heavily influenced by the outside world.
And we have to deal with the consequences of our choices:

eddyrocket wrote:

Our choice (according to the Christian perspective) determines our eternal future.

Yep, and that's the reason why I believe we have no free will. In our choices, we are victim to their consequences.

eddyrocket wrote:

This is what I think God does with us. He offers us (everyone) a choice to accept the truth and his gift. Even those who will say "no" will be given a chance. Therefore everyone gets to choose whether or not they accept the gift. The choice is totally ours. We can accept or reject the offer...

The choice is totally ours? What do you mean by "ours"?
An Indian in the Brazilian jungle, who never has heard of God, has the same choice as the child of two devoted Christians? And what about a child born into an islamist environment, who has been taught that a suicide attack is his path into paradise?

eddyrocket wrote:

I believe that as long as an individual's actions are caused by his own beliefs and longings his actions are free.

I guess the above example is proof of how little your own believes and longings are a result of who you truly are, but what you have been born into and your past experiences.

-> Cause and effect, not free will

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: EddyRocket His foreknowledge plus our free will/choice equals an even greater manifestation of his mercy and love. Even if no divine power whatsoever does activiely influence a particular choice of yours, how can you have free will, if you make your choice based on your life up to that moment, and in consideration of future consequences. To stick with the M&M example: Why would the generous office worker choose not to take it? Because sweets can cause caries; because he is on a diet; because he is allergic to peanuts... Or because he has just brushed his teeth; because he just had too much lunch, because due to his genetic conditioning he doesn't like chocolate... To me - this choice clearly is a part of cause and effect chain. True free will, to my understanding, is a choice independent from cause and effect. If there is a God, he may give us the freedom to choose as we like. But we make our choices not as what we truly are, but as a product of our past experiences, and as such we are heavily influenced by the outside world. And we have to deal the consequences of our choices: eddyrocket wrote: Our choice (according to the Christian perspective) determines our eternal future. Yep, and that's the reason why I believe we have no free will. In our choices, we are victim to their consequences. eddyrocket wrote: This is what I think God does with us. He offers us (everyone) a choice to accept the truth and his gift. Even those who will say "no" will be given a chance. Therefore everyone gets to choose whether or not they accept the gift. The choice is totally ours. We can accept or reject the offer... The choice is totally ours? So, an Indian in the Brasilian jungle, who never has heard of God, has the same choice as the child of two devoted Christians? And what about a child born into islamist surroundings who has been taught that a suicide attack is his path into paradise? eddyrocket wrote: I believe that as long as an individual's actions are caused by his own beliefs and longings his actions are free. I guess the above example is proof of how little your own believes and longings are a result of who you truly are, but what you have been born into and your past experiences. -> Cause and effect

tozy wrote:

Even if no divine power whatsoever does activiely influence a particular choice of yours, how can you have free will, if you make your choice based on your life up to that moment, and in consideration of future consequences.

I agree that we are affected and influenced heavily by our society, culture (upbringing), peers, teachers, government, etc. I am a domestic violence counselor and deal with this all the time. Many of my clients who have battered their wives believed that this was okay because their fathers did this to their mothers and in their culture there were no laws against domestic violence. So, I definitely think that you bring up an excellent point.

I have found that many of these men who act violently had their choices influenced heavily by their upbringing and surroundings. But I have also found that many of them can change. You see the problem is in their beliefs. Because they believe that they have the right to hit their wives they act out on this belief. So, as a counselor I work on changing their beliefs. How do I do this. I present the truth to them (that women are equal to men and should be respected and valued). Some of them come to see this as true and their beliefs and their actions change. Those who become enlightened and align their beliefs to the truth (and not to their previous distorted thoughts) are able to break the cause and effect that has affected many generations before them. I guess you can always make the case that because the truth is presented the effect is positive. But some times people reject the truth so I don't think that will hold.

eddyrocket wrote:

Our choice (according to the Christian perspective) determines our eternal future.

Quote:

Yep, and that's the reason why I believe we have no free will. In our choices, we are victim to their consequences. [quote="eddyrocket"]

I guess this depends on how you define the word victim. Usually I think of being a victim as a negative. I had a woman come in to one of my parenting classes with a black eye and scratches on her neck because her partner beat her up. That is what I think of when I think of a victim. I see going to heaven as a positive. I would think that this person would not be a victim but one who has benefited from having found the truth.

My main point is that people are able to get unplugged from the system that influenced them so heavily and that they were so heavily dependent on. What does this mean? I think it means that even an Indian born in the Brazilian jungle who has not heard of Jesus has the chance to receive the truth and discover the true reality of God. But he may need some help just like the men in my groups need someone to present the truth to them.

The Bible says in the book of Jeremiah that if we seek God with all our heart we will find him. I believe that if the Brazilian Indian sought God with all his heart he would find him. He would have the same choice available to him as the boy who was raised by missionaries. This may appear naive to some, but I personally believe in the authority of scripture (especially because of the evidence in support of it being authentic and true). I heard a story of how Indians in a remote place found God in the stars and believed in a messiah to come. Also, it is possible (not out of God's realm or power) that because the Brazilian Indian is seeking God that God would send him a missionary.

I should add that I believe that everyone has a spirit and that the spirit in every person (at some point) longs for a connection with its creator. Therefore I believe that all people know of God and because of this are held responsible to seek him. I believe that everyone has the choice to move toward God or move farther away from God. Thus, I believe that those who move towards God will inevitably find him because God is able to do this (or make it happen).

Romans 1:20 states: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Now, I am not mentioning whether it is harder or easier for the Brazilian Indian to come to find God. Regardless this is more a discussion of fairness (which I may get into in a future post) rather than about choice.

Peace

i think this is going to turn into a thelogical argument soon. but i would like to ask this of everyone in this thread.

I see GOD, religion (all forms), as nothing more than one big system of control. and why i say this is because if you look at it, these people are saying believe in this and believe this way because it is the right way to believe. They have already made that choice for you.

Who is god?, is there even a god?. is the god the arcitect? someone who is cntrolling the minds of the people in this world, reality, what ever you want to call this place. but all i know is that choice comes from with in. choice is like fate.

fate controls a persons life, just in the way that someone can be controlled by someselse's choices.

i think that if a person wants to be truely free i think that he/she needs to take control of his own fate/choices.

Morpheus and Neo - Matrix 1 wrote:

Do you believe in fate Neo? No! Why? Cause i dont like the idea that i'm not in control of my life.

too sum up. each and every person should choose his or her own fate and choice's in life. and not let themselves become subject to choices from a system of control.

You made some really good points about this subject.

But maybe there is a religion which doesnt partake in control.
this is called the jehovahs witness..

jehovahs witnesses donot vote, and they dont salute the flag. they are definetly not anarchists in my opinion.

but this religion has some connection to the matrix.

things like staying close with your own brotherhood{ just like the resistance}
believeing that jesus wil bring freedom to people, and make earth paradise.
and converting people to their religion..example.. red and blue pill.

jehovas witnesses are also sen as outcasts in this world by some people.

so if this was the matrix.. being a jehovas witness would not be a bad thing

Thankyou THE_FIRST_ONE, its good to be back.

The johovas still believe in god. the difference is that they denounce themselves from all festive days and other things as well, there sole purpose is to believe in god at it purest form. so in a scene they are still being controlled but without all the cool stuff like christmas and easter and birthdays.

Neo1 wrote:

Who is god?, is there even a god?. is the god the arcitect? someone who is cntrolling the minds of the people in this world, reality, what ever you want to call this place.

It's not exactly the best Buddhist resource, but it's already in English and familiar to the Matrix forums so-

Little Buddha wrote:

After sending his sons and daughters to tempt Buddha with no success, Mara arises before the meditating Siddhartha in the form of Siddhartha himself. Mara is the Buddha's reflection- Mara:"You who go where no-one else will dare. Will you be my God?" Siddhartha does not yield to this final temptation. Siddhartha:"Architect. Finally I have met you. You will not rebuild your house again." Mara:"But I am your house and you live in me." Siddhartha:"Oh lord of my own ego, you are pure illusion, you do not exist. The earth is my witness." Touching his hand to the ground, the earth trembles.

Incidentally- Namaste! It's Bodhi Day! (12/8/2005)

yes true..

but maybe there is a god.

religion is not also all about control. Religion also keeps people lives worth living,

the people in the real world need a belief in a saviour. otherwise people wouldnt wake up with anything to hope for. life would just be meaningless.
any civilisation without a faith would crumble.

Don't stop, now.

Now how do some of you feel about my words above?

n-tell

Satori wrote:

Ok Choice to me is still on a level, (my level/systems theory explains this) because God allows us to make the choice, and offers us the gifts to either acept or decline, however he is not syncronized with time or space. What this means is that there is no concept of time around god therefore he has the foresight so he may offer you the choice of "Do you want this M&M or not" he already knows what you are going to say/choose, so we as humans are bound to fate. Yes there is choice involved..to a point, however is it really choice if you were predestined to decline (or accept)? To a point possibly, but as i said before we do not have "Absolute" choice, we have a degree of choice. Choice is skeptical because there will always be counter-arguments until we become enlightened. Keep the Faith

Satori, I really like this post. I think you are on the right track. I am not sure if I agree with your definition of choice and definition of "absolute" choice. But I do think that both fate and free will (choice) work together. I also agree that we may not know the answers to these questions until we become fully enlightened.

intell wrote:

CaptPostMod God exists outside of what we would consider time and space, thus the choices we make are still our choices albeit known in advance by the Creator of the universe and all its laws of operation.

This is close to my point, but not quite it exactly. In Buddhism, the creator deity is unimportant because there is only Buddha-nature/original mind. Creation comes after original mind, and so is a distractor from it. But most importantly, everything is original mind. Each and every thing in the universe is no-thing at all. All things are everything. Seperation is merely an illusion.

So whether YHVH exists outside time is not important. It is that we all exist outside of time though we have forgotten. We and YHVH are both only eminations of original mind. So YHVH knows our choices in advance, but so do we all. We are not our thoughts, feelings, perceptions, forms, or consciousness. If we make our choices, YHVH makes our choices because there is no difference, only original mind. Fate and freewill are both illusions arising from perceptions trapped in limited runs of 4 dimensional space called human consciouness.

Quote:

Satori, I really like this post. I think you are on the right track. I am not sure if I agree with your definition of choice and definition of "absolute" choice. But I do think that both fate and free will (choice) work together. I also agree that we may not know the answers to these questions until we become fully enlightened.

Absolute choice is either choice with no consequences or choice with full knowledge of all possible consequences, which one is it Satori?

Anyways, I don't believe in fate/predestination. I feel it is someone's misunderstanding of the operation of someone else's absolute choice.

Or what has been interpreted as fate is actually evidence suggesting a Will that adapts so well to the choices of everyone else and the consequences of these (cause-and-effect), that it can seem that these choices and their consequences were part of 'the plan' all along.

THE_FIRST_ONE wrote:

yes true.. but maybe there is a god. religion is not also all about control. Religion also keeps people lives worth living, the people in the real world need a belief in a saviour. otherwise people wouldnt wake up with anything to hope for. life would just be meaningless. any civilisation without a faith would crumble.

While people do want to believe in god, i truly believe there is no god. Baudrillard said in his book, simulatrca and simulation and which i also have to agree with is that:

Quote:

God is an image of what he or she see him to be.

So what he was saying was that if one man/woman is compassionate then they believes that god is compassionate. if the second man/woman is caring and loving then they believe that god is caring and loving. and so on and so.

As for religion like is said before it is a system of control, it is designed to give man hope. while yes hope is important to mankind i dont think it is a good idea to preach false hopes.

only look at Morpheus when talking about faith. his faith in finding the one possesed him, it consumed him, and he was prepared to die for what he believe to be right. becesause he was told it by the orical, a religious figure. a mother figure. I think that if each and every person had there individual hopes and beliefs, then the world would see that god doesn't exsist, and that the powers that this so-called god has is inside each and everyone of us.

And as for the saviour, i do believe that there is a saviour coming, aspecially in todays times. but i dont hink that he will be sent from heaven. i think he or she will be more like neo. someone who nows the people, has a connection to the people and will fight for what the people believe in.

capt.. wrote:

This is close to my point, but not quite it exactly. In Buddhism, the creator deity is unimportant because there is only Buddha-nature/original mind. Creation comes after original mind, and so is a distractor from it. But most importantly, everything is original mind. Each and every thing in the universe is no-thing at all. All things are everything. Seperation is merely an illusion. So whether YHVH exists outside time is not important. It is that we all exist outside of time though we have forgotten. We and YHVH are both only eminations of original mind. So YHVH knows our choices in advance, but so do we all. We are not our thoughts, feelings, perceptions, forms, or consciousness. If we make our choices, YHVH makes our choices because there is no difference, only original mind. Fate and freewill are both illusions arising from perceptions trapped in limited runs of 4 dimensional space called human consciouness.

Ah yes. I am acquainted with this Buddhist doctrine and the related Hindu concept of OM or AUM. A problem arising from this concept is that we are to accept this as true and logical despite having no model to draw from or any other way to demonstrate its veracity. This is a perspective that becomes others' by being taught to them rather than a logical conclusion reached.

One question I will pose to those having this pov is: If there is a Universal Mind that becomes deluded into thinking it is separate, it does this for what purpose? Another question is: if I am you, you don't really have to answer that do you?

neo1, paraphrasing Baudrillard wrote:

if one man/woman is compassionate then they believes that god is compassionate. if the second man/woman is caring and loving then they believe that god is caring and loving. and so on and so.

If this is true, how come we see the worst personages in history claiming to worship compassionate, caring, loving gods?

neo1 wrote:

As for religion like is said before it is a system of control, it is designed to give man hope. while yes hope is important to mankind i dont think it is a good idea to preach false hopes. only look at Morpheus when talking about faith. his faith in finding the one possesed him, it consumed him, and he was prepared to die for what he believe to be right. becesause he was told it by the orical, a religious figure. a mother figure. I think that if each and every person had there individual hopes and beliefs, then the world would see that god doesn't exsist, and that the powers that this so-called god has is inside each and everyone of us.

This line of thinking becomes problematic when one stops to think about the origin of everything that exists.

So is religion a system of control or is it more like the system trying to balance itself out by controlling that intuition that all of us have about what we are not seeing (splinter in your mind) by trying to put it into a box of doctrine and ritual which both resemble and originate from the system that the intuition was suppose to result in the liberation from?

iow, whereas most religions have become like Zion, serving the machines interest by thinking they are fighting against them, we must remember "he [neo] did the impossible, that dream you [morpheus] dared dream when so many would not."

Without him we're lost. Morpheus walked the path even tho he did not know the path. There's a difference, remember.

Most of the characters have their bad points as well as traits we can't help but admire. Morpheus' intuitive connection to the truth is one of them. This is underscored by the fact that there was no way for him to be certain of the truth at any time before the end of Rev. Reminds me of the significance of the same choice he offers us all - red or blue?

intell i understand what you are saying, and it make secene. but that is how i see religion. I believe that religion is for those people who are weak minded (no disrespect). who are lost. people who are trying to find the truth about themselves. BUt i feel that religion is giving them false hope (sort of speaking).

I think that the truth is out there but each and everyone of us has to find his or her own path to the truth. religion i feel clouds a persons path, miss-leeds them into believeing something that is not reel. and when a person does find the truth then the miss-leeding path that they have taken through religion maybe hard to see, understand, swollow.