»Why is the Keymaker an Exile?«

intell wrote:

Quote: that fact is what bothers him. She did found the solution, not he. He now has to share his brilliant work with someone else. No it isn't. It is why it needed her involvement.

Yes, but this is not an counter-agrument for the above, it is just a repetition.

intell wrote:

Some of you all make it sound like the Arch's main prob. is his ego.

No. Archies main problem is the anomaly. But, indeed, he thinks very high of himself and does not like it that soemone else found a better idea. But this is just a side-note in the character of this character...

Wow, I'm now at that icky stage where I'm feeling less open-minded and more like I want to stop the ride and get off. So I'm going to start defending my viewpoint now. Does that make me a fanatic? Oh wait, I already was one. Stupid me.

Before I start showing my newfound mindless attachment to the latest theory that sounds good to me, I want to say that it's not ideal. I say that because even though I still believe what I'm saying, I understand that certain things that starcrow said are more ideal. They're more harmonious and they're more in keeping with the spirit of the movie. I'm referring mostly to his comments about the necessity of Neo reaching the Architect's chamber and how the choice of the One to do what the Architect wants is designed to undo all the negative choices that were made against what the Architect wants. That's a beautiful thing. It's kind of spiritual as well, like the Old Testament Day of Atonement ceremonies where the priest would enter the Holy of Holies once a year to atone for the sins of the people. And just as the Architect's solution is temporary in that he'll have to endure an infinite amount of cycles, the Old Testament method of dealing with sin was not permanent. When Christ came, he went into the Holy of Holies once for the sins of all mankind and it will never have to be done again. In a similar fashion, Neo established a new paradigm in which the cycle will not have to repeat endlessly, but people who want to be free will be allowed to leave. Believe me, starcrow, I really do get it and I wish I could come up with a system that leaned more in that direction.

Perhaps what's happening here is that you can enjoy the movie on more than one level, but those levels don't jibe with one another. That could be careless writing, or it could be totally genius writing if it was intentional. I say genius, because the Wachowski Brothers introduced all different kinds of philosophies in the movie that contradict each other and could not all be true simultaneously. If this phenomenon I'm talking about is intentional, it's just a big indicator that when it comes to interpreting the movies, you just have to make up your own damn mind. As a fan of the movies, obviously I'd rather believe that all this difficulty we're having piecing this all together is due to what I'm saying rather than sloppy writing.

Okay, enough of the warm fuzzies. On to the brainless efforts to protect my latest pet theories. HA!

Hexediter beat me to the punch on the part about the first cycle needing to be jump-started, so why not the seventh cycle if they had successfully killed Neo? Good job, hex.

Quote:

By just killing Neo, the problem could not be solved, as the problem is choice.

Even though I see the beauty of that statement as I mentioned earlier, I believe that this is a preference more than a statement of fact. At this point, I just need to know if i'm contradicting facts, rather than preferences. But if I could find a noncontradictory system that included that statement, I would. Maybe you should explain the whole big picture as you see it, including the important events, and maybe it will become more clear to me.

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If the Architect was not forced to let Neo choose, then there would be no reason at all to let him choose in the chamber! The Architect could just present one door to Neo... the door to the Source. "Congratulations for reaching this chamber... now, this way please." Why letting him choose if this was not necessary?

There is too much logic in that statement, therefore my conclusion is that you are wrong. However, since I have no refutation of that comment, you are forcing me to resort to name-calling. You jerk. You loser. You dork. There, that's much better. Man, I love being right!

Seriously though, that sucks. Why did you have to go and say that? Now I have to think harder to protect my way of thinking! Give me a second and I'll think something up.

*time passes as Feral Boy looks around the room searching for an answer*

Crap. It's worse than I thought. Under my way of thinking, the question isn't so much about why the Architect gave Neo a choice, but why he was even there at all. Oh, you bastard. You WILL pay for that. I must think!

*time passes while Jeopardy music plays in the background*

Hex may have to help me out on this one, because I may only be able to get a thought started. There's one thing I noticed while watching the movies again last week. In M2 when the rebels are planning to invade the skyscraper that the Keymaker tells them about, there's no mentioning at all what the primary goal is or how they plan to accomplish it. Morpheus is running off the prophecy that says that once the One reaches the Source the war will end. Nobody seems to know what the One is supposed to do once he reaches the Source, though. Apparently he's supposed to figure that out once he gets there. Using 20/20 hindsight, we know what the Architect had in mind for this whole scenario, but the question is what was in the rebels' minds? They didn't know about the Architect or his chamber. As far as they knew, when Neo unlocked that door with the Keymaker's handy dandy key, it would lead straight to the Source. Did the rebels think it was some sort of football game, where if Neo reaches the Source he can shout "touchdown!" and that the Machines would have to say, "You win. War's over." I mean, what the hell?

Hmm...this isn't helping my side any. Hex? Help?

Quote:

If they really had intended to kill the One, then they should have found better ways to kill him. But they only have these few pitty looser-agents with those tiny crap guns around. They should at least have presented the upgrated agents already in M1 to kill some more rebels. They should have come up with something better.

Hex came up with a really good argument for this one, which mentioned the dangers inherent in making agents too strong in case they turn on you later. You might want to reread his previous posting.

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The agent's disadvantage is, that they were designed not to be successful in completing their (fake) mission.

But they WERE successful! They totally killed Neo's butt at the end of M1. It's only due to a miracle that he came back to life, not some aspect of the Architect's master plan.

Quote:

I think the Architect believes the Oracle. He knows her powers. She came up with the right idea. And that fact is what bothers him.

He thinks she stumbled upon the answer, rather than thinking that she figured it out. He thinks of her as a lesser mind and barely tolerates her. Ironically, this is probably not too different from how she thinks about him.

I was re-reading through the posts, and I saw Intell mentioning something about Loctavius' post being ignored. I scrolled up, and sure enough there it was! I hadn't even seen that thing, and I've been watching this thread like a hawk!

Loctavius, if you're reading this, you need to explain more. I play the game, and I was in the dark about some of the stuff you were talking about.

1) When exactly did the Keymaker's purpose end? Before the first cycle started? Sometime after the sixth cycle started? I've been operating lately under the impression that he's been an Exile for all six cycles. Please clarify.

2) Who is the Andedeluvian? What is he? I assume he's some sort of program, but what does he do? You'll need to help us out here so that we're on the same page as you. You obviously play the game much more than I do (I'm only at level fifteen), so I haven't encountered any of these critical missions. I'm also not part of any team at the moment.

Quote:

Yes, but this is not an counter-agrument for the above.

Quite right. But notice: "the above" is not an argument either. It is a statement of opinion. What are we, back in debate class? The truth is found in what is posted, not in the structure of the posts.

Some of you seem to want to turn every square inch of plot into some long, complicated piece of literature. I, by no means, mean offense to those that do but I just want to point out that some elements of the films are readily seen and don't need so much to be read in them, capiche?

'Of everything, ask: what is it in itself' - Hannibal Lector

What does the KeyMaker do? He makes keys. Why is that a big deal to the machine world? Because the only way to the Architect is for a specific date and time (Oracle guides) and a means to get in there (key) and cutting the power to 27 city blocks (others who believe in the one). The allusion to atonement day that FeralBoy made is a powerful meme it seems the W's used here. The KeyMaker made the "One" key so his purpose is served. "No longer necessary" (said without any need for a Smith explanation which is NOT plot-supported anyway). Too simple to be exciting enough? Well read on.

KeyMaker stands ready for the deletion but what! Morpheus just kicked that agents *** like Niobe said. So Keymaker sticks around and gives further instructions and even accompanies Morph and Neo. Smiths show up and KeyMaker opens a door, through which Neo and Morph escape. Now KeyMaker gets shot and says, "it was meant to be" Simply stating that the extra time he was given serves a greater Purpose than one simply given him by the machine world or else Neo might not have made it there within the window of opportunity.

All the theories are cute at least on the surface. But if you really want to understand what is taking place today within our world that the movies reveal through allegory, we might need to give it a rest and read the subtext or at least the context and go from there.

First of all, Feral Boy, let me say that I love your post above. It is fun to read and I appreciate that very very much.

Second, you should have more self-confidence. We all have our theories and there is no reason why they should not be able to co-exist. This forum is to exchange our thought and theories, so... be man..uhm.. boy enough to step in for your opinion. Yes, Sir!

Now, let me defend my view again and comment on your thoughts.

Feral Boy wrote:

Hexediter beat me to the punch on the part about the first cycle needing to be jump-started, so why not the seventh cycle if they had successfully killed Neo? Good job, hex.

Yes, I appreciate Hex' thought as well. But why do they let The One choose at all? Maybe just to make him feel better... anyway. I give in to this and withdraw this point.

Feral Boy wrote:

Keymaker tells them about, there's no mentioning at all what the primary goal is or how they plan to accomplish it. [...] the question is what was in the rebels' minds? They didn't know about the Architect or his chamber.

I haven't seen the movies for quite a while now, but anyway, let me say this: You are right. They just don't know. And they do not need to know, because they believe. Have you ever really trusted someone in your life? Then you know this. Morpheus and company believe in the Prophecy, they trust the Oracle. The One must go there and only there he must go. Peace can be reached once The One reaches the Source and reaching the Source The One must. And consider that it is a Prophecy, not a manual. It is not suppost go give you a detailed step-by-step explanation of everything. As the Merovingian put it... they don't know the "why".

The rebels and Neo are guided by the Oracle and the Prophecy, hunted by others etc. with the sole purpose to get Neo into the chamber. Again, the Merovigian is right. They are just following orders. They are puppets played by the Architect and (mainly) the Oracle.

And therein lies the irony, such a beautiful piece of irony. The rebels wanted to get free from the Matrix, because they did not want to be enslaved, they did not want to live in this fake world, this prison. They want to have free will and they fight for the freedom of the other humans. But in fact... they are not free at all! Again they are deceived, again they are blinded rom the truth, again they are just given an illusion, again they are not in control of their own lives! Their actions by no means are suppost to lead to freedom... they lead to the stabilisation of the Matrix! To the cementation of the fate of humanity!

And remember what Neo says in the first part of M1? ("Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life." - Neo) And he isn't! His actions are conrolled by the Oracle. "Go to the Source" - "Yes, M'am" Can it be more beautiful?

Feral Boy wrote:

Starcrow wrote: If they really had intended to kill the One, then they should have found better ways to kill him. Hex came up with a really good argument for this one, which mentioned the dangers inherent in making agents too strong in case they turn on you later. You might want to reread his previous posting.

I know this one and I appreciate it. Good point! But anyway, I still see a way to defend this argument I mean, they just send tree agents with baby guns. Three agents. How lame can it get? Where is the army? Where are those 500 agents hunting him? Where is the precision of a machine/program? Where is this high-tech weaponry? Shoot him with a laser weapon. Being faster than light would be quite difficult even for The One.

Now you will say that all that would not help as The One is The One and therefore stronger by definition. But if it is like that... why would the machines try at all?

Feral Boy wrote:

Starcrow wrote: The agent's disadvantage is, that they were designed not to be successful in completing their (fake) mission. But they WERE successful! They totally killed Neo's butt at the end of M1.

Killing Neo at this stage is part of the path of The One. There are some statements in the movie to support that, mainly by the Oracle, and I dealt with this issue already in previous posts in this thread and in others. The agents are part of the deception, their true purpose may not be known to them.

Feral Boy wrote:

It's only due to a miracle that he came back to life, not some aspect of the Architect's master plan.

As I said in a post above - no miracle needed.

Feral Boy wrote:

Starcrow wrote: I think the Architect believes the Oracle. He knows her powers. She came up with the right idea. And that fact is what bothers him. He thinks she stumbled upon the answer, rather than thinking that she figured it out. He thinks of her as a lesser mind and barely tolerates her.

Right! Isn't that something really terrible? He, the Architect, spends so much effort on solving the problem and then a "lesser mind" "stumbled" upon the solution. If this isn't grieving, what then? And the worst thing is that he still needs her to fulfill the cycles. He still, to some degree, depends on her. Oh man, how would you feel?

intell wrote:

Quote: Yes, but this is not an counter-agrument for the above. Quite right. But notice: "the above" is not an argument either. It is a statement of opinion.

We are all just having opinions, haven't we? No one has to truth... if there is any!

intell wrote:

I just want to point out that some elements of the films are readily seen and don't need so much to be read in them, capiche?

intell wrote:

if you really want to understand what is taking place today within our world that the movies reveal through allegory, we might need to give it a rest and read the subtext or at least the context and go from there.

Do you want to say that the things are obvious, plain and simple or that we have to get down and understand the subtext?

And besides... most questions about the Matrix movies deal within the framework of the movies. I don't draw much conclusions from the movies for my own life...

heh, I'm all about the subtext Intell, but that's not the intention of our argument here. We're trying to lay down motivations for actions, actually I think we agree much more on the inner meanings of the film then on these couple of plot points which still confuse us, or at least have us going in different directions.

And I did read Loc's post, and I appreciated it for all I could, but seeing as how I'm not in the game I couldn't really add anything to it but just say thanks for sharing the info, so thanks Loc!

And arguments very often involve opinions, you should know this Intell lol, that's why we're still arguing over them! Otherwise this would have been over in 3 postings or less.

The whole point of my argument isn't to change the way the movies went, just to try to explain actions we saw. From what I have gathered, killing the One is very very hard to do. Next to impossible. I'm sure the architect is aware of this, but I'm not sure this is going to prevent him from trying. And he can try all he damn well pleases, but unless there are 1000's of integral anomally's chances are he won't have stopped a single one of them. The problem is choice, I agree. You either solve this by allowing him to choose and influeincing that choice, or you prevent the choice from happening, there are only two possabilities here. Regardless of whether he is or isn't trying to kill the one and prevent him from reaching the source, the "subtext" of the films is still all the same. The messages are made no less evident. Yet this remains one of the biggest open questions we still have to talk about.

How about sending an army of Smith's to destroy Neo... oh wait... that happened. And neo was still kicking! Send an army with big guns... wait Neo stopped all the bullets. Laser weapon? come on now, that would have been quite rediculous from a plot point of view, it would have been like wtf kind of ending is that. The One just got killed by a laser. The end. lol. So why do the machines try at all? Ah... perhaps we get to a valid question here. I suppose winning the lottery is worth the effort, otherwise you relegate yourself to your fate of having to wait on him with nothing else to do.

And the architect trying to destroy Neo in the chamber... what do you think that fireball following Neo out the door was for? As for the train station analogy... it only half applies. The arc resides in some part of the source I presume, and we know this is the source of Neo's power. So perhaps Neo is even stronger in the chamber then in the matrix... just a thought.

And the architect is forced to let Neo choose, only because he couldn't prevent it, he's a tard like that. lol. Yes I know, he's a friggen genious, and has buku weapons at his disposal, but he can't stop the one, the anomaly thingy, and that as they say, is that.

I love the touchdown part Feral, I'm not sure what Morpheous expected, I suppose he expected Neo to run amouck in the machine mainframe and take them all to hell lol.

Oh gosh, I just read the part where Intell thinks I have a good grasp on what's going on... I love you Intell! (sorry for goiing semi midevil on yer ass earlier) I must be tired, or drunk, but mostly tired, so that's all I have in my defense here. Much love to everyone

Have fun!

hexediter wrote:

Laser weapon? come on now, that would have been quite rediculous from a plot point of view, it would have been like wtf kind of ending is that. The One just got killed by a laser. The end. lol.

Right, but my arguments are not about what is the best for the movie. They were just to show that the machines did not try everything they could to stop Neo from reaching the Source. They only did some half-hearted attacks. This does not sound like a machine.

hexediter wrote:

So why do the machines try at all? Ah... perhaps we get to a valid question here.

No question at all. At least not for me. Because the machine don't try to kill him. It is just a chivvy to get him into the right direction.

hexediter wrote:

And the architect trying to destroy Neo in the chamber... what do you think that fireball following Neo out the door was for?

Oh, come on. They try to kill him but present him an escape route at the same time? If I were a machine and wanted to kill Neo, this door would lead to many things but - for sure - it would not be an escape route and exit! Ok, you might call that a plot hole or some tribute to action. That is an easy way to explain many things. But I think we are all here because we a trying to find some better explanations.

hexediter wrote:

As for the train station analogy... it only half applies. The arc resides in some part of the source I presume, and we know this is the source of Neo's power. So perhaps Neo is even stronger in the chamber then in the matrix...

So, then trap im elsewere. I mean, if the Merovigian can control a Trainstation then the machines for sure also can. All it would need is to trap Neo in such a place. but of course... that would be quite boring for the movie experience.

Some things just exist because Matrix is just a movie. There are some questions you just should not ask as there is no in-movie answer to them.

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Some things just exist because Matrix is just a movie. There are some questions you just should not ask as there is no in-movie answer to them.

That's probably the key to this whole thing right there. I don't know why my assumption this whole time has been that there is a coherent unified theory that explains every single action and motivation in all the movies, anime and video games put together. Maybe it's because everything seems to be done so purposefully that it subconsciously makes me believe that everything can be explained. And I just love to figure out puzzles, so add that to the mix and you're talking about one major splinter in the mind for yours truly.

At this point I think I'm content to believe what I believe. My brain is tired at the moment, but probably in a few months I'll pick it up again, maybe watch the movies, and say, "Oh wow, I never saw that before!" and be spun off in a whole new tangent. That's how this thing seems to work. It's addictive, and for that reason I both hate it and love it. But something tells me that my wife hates it more. I've been obsessed with this Matrix thing since the first one came out, so I've been a singe-minded schmuck for roughly six years now. I tell myself that it's okay because the movies dig deep into the important questions in life and transcends typical sci-fi. It does do that, to be sure, but nonetheless I need a break.

You guys have been extremely helpful, and I want to thank each and every one of you: hexediter, intell, mobil, starcrow, and loctavius (maybe moreso on the old Matrix Online forums than in here, but I'd still like to mention him). And last but definitely not least is inev. Inev's postings are like the spiritual heartbeat of these forums and I love the stuff he says, even if sometimes I don't understand it at first. There's a feeling I get when reading them, like he's tapped into something. It's like Neo coming out of the Architect's chamber and saying, "Something's different." That's what it feels like. And while I may not have always agreed with some of you, you've all been like the Bible's concept of iron sharpening iron. You all have such fantastic ideas and opinions, and even if I didn't agree with some of them, they had the odd effect of expanding my mind anyway. I absolutely love how that works!

Anyway, I'll see you all probably in a while, but I just need a short break. God bless you all and I hope to be talking with you again soon.

Oh, and by the way...my e-mail address is Stupid email address. Feel free to drop me a line any time.

What Feral? You better not go anywhere, you're SO close to decyphering the whole thing. Closer than I've ever been. You all are. And yes hex, you do have a good grasp of what is going on. I have to admit, I didn't think Starcrow knew what he was talking about (lol) until that about 5 posts back where he started with "First of all, Feral Boy..." I couldn't have said it better from start to finish of that whole post. Did you really write that? Brilliant!

Feral, really, if you don't continue, it would be a bit boring/quiet because you've been stimulating research and that is always a good thing.

Significance

starcrow wrote:

We are all just having opinions, haven't we? No one has to truth... if there is any!

Here, I lean more to what Feral said that there is a unified understanding of the films. The W's didn't just write it for an exploration into interpretations.

starcrow, furthering the thought, later wrote:

And besides... most questions about the Matrix movies deal within the framework of the movies. I don't draw much conclusions from the movies for my own life...

I see you have a great deal of comprehension about the story itself, but not enough discernment (which is just as important) as to what it applies to / was written for. A common mistake, it was just a movie, then right? But you are oh! so very close. I'm confident that you will see it eventually. ("V for Vendetta" cometh!)

starcrow wrote:

Do you want to say that the things are obvious, plain and simple or that we have to get down and understand the subtext?

I want to say both. Some of the plot things do not require/deserve the speculation they sometimes get for example: cookies, "I've beaten you before", and let's not forget all those "is neo really dead?" threads that used to be written. Focus those high powered perceptive skills to the "what does this mean and why did the W's put that in here?" and see that the whole thing doesn't unfold nicely.

You and Hex actually have in common the purpose being played out by the Architect but differ only in a few details of how. And you both don't think the subtext (what the story is saying) has a bearing on how it is being played out. Well I'm about to say a few things that intend to bind it together.

But first:

hexediter wrote:

Regardless of whether he is or isn't trying to kill the one and prevent him from reaching the source, the "subtext" of the films is still all the same.

If the movies are showing how the world works today, then the motives of those in charge are most relevant here. So, I'm afraid I don't concur.

What the Arc is and is not doing
The Architect needs to solve the Anomaly (rebellion against the system) in a way that removes a growing threat to the machine world (Zion) without destroying the matrix (taking away a choice -> Zion as something to wake up to), Neo is here to aid in this purpose.

Counter: Then why try to kill him.
Counter to the counter: The Architect doesn't try to kill him, the agents do. Starcrow hit the nail on the head on the fact that they do what they're supposed to do without knowing (or possibly caring about) what purpose is being served. Just like some Zionites are doing.

Saying the Architect want him dead is like saying Dubya wants Abdul Shariff dead but if he points an rpg at the marines in Baghdad, oh well...The Arc, like Dubya has set up a SYSTEM and that system is designed to do what it does with all the parts working together, according to rules (parameters). Neo works against the system, so it, for it to function must work against him. Its not that the Architect couldn't have him killed but if he were to die at this time, it would have been woeful for all. That is why the SOURCE empowers Neo to be able to break the rules and work above the sytem itself.

Concluding humorous and remarks

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If I were a machine and wanted to kill Neo, this door would lead to many things but - for sure - it would not be an escape route and exit!

Well if i were a machine, I wouldn't care a bit about how powerful someone is whilst they dream. I would just send some sentinels in there and blow his but off in the real world! But wait, that is what happened, too! So what does this show: Not all are in the know about why they're doing what they're doing on both sides.

hexediter wrote:

Oh gosh, I just read the part where Intell thinks I have a good grasp on what's going on... I love you Intell! (sorry for goiing semi midevil on yer ass earlier) I must be tired, or drunk, but mostly tired, so that's all I have in my defense here. Much love to everyone

You must have deleted those comments because, well I didn't see them. I love you and the rest of you guys, too. Keep up the good work. I mean that.

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What Feral? You better not go anywhere, you're SO close to decyphering the whole thing.

Man, it sure doesn't feel like it. I'll tell you what it does feel like, though. It's just like my other obsession--Bible prophecy. I just love studying that stuff and trying to figure it all out. It's the same kind of scenario where you've got events to keep track of, motivations to decipher and religious and philosophical concepts to keep in mind. It's awesome! But this is how I've operated in regard to large subjects like Bible prophecy and the Matrix. I study for a while and dig way deep for as long as I can stand it. I always (and I mean always) pull out lots of stuff I never knew before. That always surprises me, especially since the previous time I studied it felt like I went as far as humanly possible and learned everything there was to learn. This is due in large part to the participation of other people, who think of things differently than I do and think of things in ways I never would have. I keep the things I like and drop the things I don't. But I never quite figure everything out, and end up getting tired of it even though it feels like I'm on the cusp of something. So I take a break for a while and give my brain a chance to absorb all that great stuff that I just found. I'm like a kid on Halloween who's done for the evening and now sits on the floor inspecting all the goodies he's received from his trick-or-treating.

I've found out a couple things about my own mind. The first thing is that I can't make it think about something it doesn't want to. I don't know how to explain it any better than that. There are times my mind naturally gravitates toward a certain topic, and it becomes like a bulldog and just won't let go until it's satisfied. But when that feeling of satisfaction comes (like it did for me last night), then I can't seem to make my mind want to go back to that topic. It's as if my brain somehow instinctively knows that it's time to think about the stuff I've learned before treading any further. If you try to keep cramming stuff in there before you've had time to really consider some of the things you just learned, you could miss a lot of wisdom.

The second thing I've learned is that I go in cycles of interest and disinterest, and if I ignore that cycle my effort to learn is fruitless. I don't know about you guys, but when I try to think about something when my brain doesn't want to, it's like pulling teeth. I don't know why the cycles happen like that, but my only response is to be sensitive to them and use them to my advantage. When my mind is open and hungry, I pounce on the opportunity and dive right down that famed rabbit hole. I go as far as I can and try to challenge the thinking of those around me. And inevitably, I get challenged as much (or more) as I challenge them. That's been the case in other forums, and it's definitely been the case here. I love the process, and I suppose that if I was able to control the cycles it wouldn't be as much fun. It's kind of like finding a rhythm and moving to the beat. You don't make the music, but if you become one with it then good things can happen.

I just hope that when I start getting hungry for more Matrix stuff, you guys are still here. All of you. I'm not shutting you out though, which is why I left my e-mail address. If you think of something or want to go over something and think I'd be interested and/or helpful, by all means contact me. My brain may be taking a break, but that doesn't mean I'm unable to talk about it.

Damn you guys are typing alot. Gives me a headache.

Can somebody summarize what all of this is about? Is it still about the Keymaker or what?

i dont understand what is driving you guys to find the answers to this?
you guys have to understand the first movie to get a sense of it all.
how can you know that you are close to figuring it out?

the trilogy is indeed a puzzle.
and i am going to be frank here.
isnt believing something strongly about just a movie, or a mind game, and comming to conclusions about something that doesnt give you answers, be delusional?

there is no truth in all of this.
and even if there is truth. it would be way above the wachowskies heads.

the truth that you seek is within the first movie.

the first movie helps you to look outside the sqaure that you live in. the rest of the series is just plain stupid. sorry about that, but just put down what you believe about the movies for a second, and have a real think about it.

the first movie goes out of its way to disprove the rest of the series.{maybe foresight here?}

why would the writters of the matrix want to ruin the first classic movie?
and what sort of thoughts does the first movie install in you?

it may sound like crap to everybody.
but i see alot of sense in my explanations.

the movie is actually a lot deeper than you think.

think about who it is that wants you to have no idea about these so called puzzles.
who would be trying to hide the truth of the matrix from you?

i know that i am a much hated person on this forum, but i am trying to get you to understand that there is more to it than you think.

here is a clue..
the matrix is a world that inhabits humans in the guise of the real world. so why would it be much more than that?
the person who made it, obvously doesnt want people knowing the truth about it. so why would it be some game that is being run by a truth telling machine?

have a think.. it doesnt make sense does it.

now i do care what these movies are doing to people.
something is laughing its sick ass off over all of this.
i am trying to help people, especially the people on this matrix forum.
and believe me i do care.

please think about this.

m1 makes sense.
m2 and m3 are deceptive.

thankyou for reading

THE_FIRST_ONE wrote:

i dont understand what is driving you guys to find the answers to this?

What's driving you to repeat your same old bullcrap over and over again?

Anyway, you refused to counter argue one of my posts... It seemed that you went on some sort of vacation I guess.

Here's the post:

Just let me make some general remarks here.

intell wrote:

Here, I lean more to what Feral said that there is a unified understanding of the films. The W's didn't just write it for an exploration into interpretations.

I've always assumed that there are explanations that are within a unified, coherent framework that explains just about everything that happens in the movies.

But I also think that, based on the information given in the movies and ETM, the audience is not meant to find that unified explanation. Instead, each and everyone of us has to make up his/her own mind about it. And every explanation or view is right, as long as you are happy and content with is and as long as it satisfies your needs.

intell wrote:

I see you have a great deal of comprehension about the story itself, but not enough discernment (which is just as important) as to what it applies to / was written for. A common mistake, it was just a movie, then right? But you are oh! so very close. I'm confident that you will see it eventually. ("V for Vendetta" cometh!)

I understand that some people say that the Matrix has changed their lives or that the Matrix has changed the way they see the world.

But... it didn't have that effect on me. It is an ass-kicking triology, a big big fun to watch from time to time, it contains trucks full of philosophical quotes which I like to use here and there and which apply to many situations is life. But many things are quite obvious stuff. These are well known philosophical statements. Nothing new. So, while it might be enlighting for some poeple, it is not for me. Nevertheless, I like the movies very much for the dep philosophical approach and all those layers, riddles, subtexts and hints.

intell wrote:

Some of the plot things do not require/deserve the speculation they sometimes get for example: cookies, "I've beaten you before", and let's not forget all those "is neo really dead?" threads that used to be written. Focus those high powered perceptive skills to the "what does this mean and why did the W's put that in here?" and see that the whole thing doesn't unfold nicely.

Well, herein lies the problem, doesn't it? I could ask what do the cookies mean and why did the W's put that in here? I could ask why did the W's include the "I've beaten you before"-statement and what does it mean?

You seem to claim to have the right to judge which questions are right and which are wrong. But there is no such right. Everyone has to ask his/her own questions about it and everyone has to develop his/her own understanding.

----

Now, one more detailed thing:

intell wrote:

Well if i were a machine, I wouldn't care a bit about how powerful someone is whilst they dream. I would just send some sentinels in there and blow his but off in the real world! But wait, that is what happened, too!

Yes, they did. And in M1 and M2 (with the exception of the end of M2) this was just fake. Just take a moment and think about it. The machines gave the rebels all the weapons the rebels have! They gave them Zion and everything in it! The machines wouldn't be that stupid to give the rebels more power than the machines themselves can control, would they? The rebels have e.g. the cool EMP because the machines allow them to have it. Nothing more. It is there for the sole purpose of deception.

But I also agree. At the end of M2 and in M3, I believe that the machines now really try to kill Neo as he has grown beyond their control. But they cannot stop him any more.

---

But maybe now we really should come back to the Keymaker...

It's fine with me if you think the first matrix is the deepest film, and that the last two stink. But we are discussing the trillogy as a whole, and trying to find the "sum" if you will of it's parts. The reason? I do not find it odd that people who like to question, to discern truth are attrated to this film and to deciphering it in detail. Hell, This idea plays out in your favorite matrix1.

I know why you live alone and spend night after night at your computer. It is the question that drives us.

How can you know that you are close? I believe they call it intuition, and since you may not classify that as knowing, then you can think whatever you want, maybe you can't know. But that's all the more reason to keep looking... now isn't it

There are many truth's so to speak, thrown in throughout the trilogy. And some are consistent throughout all three. Some are unique, and some require you to peice together different parts to realize a greater whole. M2 and 3 are no more or less deceptive then m1, they simply cannot be discerned as easily as m1 if you do not look at them from the point of view of the trilogy as a whole. They require more from the viewer, certainly, and this no doubt is at least partly responsible for those who feel completely lost, bewildered, ect. Hell, some people don't want to be asked to have to work to get something, they want it fed to them, slowly and painfully even, that's fine, but the matrix isn't the flick for you. It will not tell you what to think, you will have to make up your own damn mind.

But... it does have a fairly coherent story underneath it all, with commen motif's that are unmistakable if you have the mind to actually look for them.

Mobil... this thread started with the keymaker, but to quesition his status as an exile opens up much bigger cans of worms. Like what exactly are the motivations of those in charge of the matrix. So I suppose it is all sort of related to the keymaker, but it also beyond him in scope, but so much of the matrix is like this. You can't single out one variable, you have to look at it and how it relates to the whole.

I will take this time to express one of my far out theories...

I think Sati is some sort of new keymaker type person. Although I don't think she'll make keys... but she will probably play a simuliar role plot wise. She will be the means to some end.

I'll have to agree with Intell here. in MY OPINION, this movie has buttloads of relveant meaning to our real world - if one cannot see this then perhaps one is not ready or does not fully understand the Allegory of this movie.
I'll cite Starcrows statement about this film being nothing more than an etertainment piece. True many of the philosophies mentioned in the movie aren't new. And some already new them - but what's miised here is the way they've been presented to the masses. As students we don't dabble in philosophy until when? Maybe Senior year in HS. why? because before our system tries to open our minds they need tomake sure we're indoctrinated into the present philosophy (capitalism in the US and many other parts of the world) lest we realize the errors/downfalls of this practive and mobilize to derail it.
By encorporating multiple philosophies into the movie, most bent on opening eyes to the format of control, the W bros have successfully turned a large number of humans on to thinking out of the box our governing bodies have worked so very hard to keep us in. When the public does not question the actions of it's governing body, especially the ones that are opposite of the People's will, you've get an easily controllable populace in which you can do anything with.
Sorry, i strongly disagree with any notion that the movie does not contain and is not intended to 'awaken' humans to these sorts of subliminal control mechanisms.
As for the debates of "why would the machines do this if it directly would affect/jeopardize they're ability to control ...." let's simplfy this.
Unless your dealing with an extremely gullable and complacent populace/individual, it will be extremely difficult to sway they're beliefs and actions based on their beleifs. Whether or not this is result of a primitive human intellect or not isn't the question. the question is for what purpose?

For some, any compromise of they're belief system/prinicples is bad and thus they won't allow it - even if it prevents them from realizing dreams or obtaining the things they want most in life. So, with this wall of unwaivering intent, how would one be able to manipulate them to their will? By letting them deduce things for themselves and by manipulating the environment and conditions of the choice - thus the Architect's chamber. No matter what the choice - the machines win. This only because Neo's still in the dark about a few things. He obviously chooses the most defiant choice as Neo is still bound to his beleif that he controls his destiny - perhaps the only and most important aspect he was able to preserve from his life as Mr Anderson.
Though by their best efforts, Neo does not fall neatly into the game's parameters. and thus they need to up the ante - hence Smith and Trinity's death - both attempts to force Neo's hand/actions - both he defied until he realized what the game was about - CONTROL.
In the end, after exhausting every safe possible route to control the anomaly, the machines empower Smith - which to their surprise and dismay jeopardizes they're ability to not only excercise partial control over Neo/the anomaly (through presnted choice) but also their control over their very own real world and Matrix.

Control ladies and gentleman - it is the CORE of the machines approach - their ability to control the outcome of THEIR own destiny.