»Martial arts.«

I'm sure there have been other martial arts threads but I wanted to start a fresh one.

So does anyone here train a martial art? What style? How long have you trained? You know any good training exercises?

I thought we would talk about these things, and I do not want this to turn into a "my style is better than your style" conversation. Lets talk about experiences, share ideas and have some fun.

I started training traditional Ju-Jutsu when I was like 7 or 8 years old. There was some Karate training involved too. During this time I also trained Taekwondo for about a year.

I continued to train Ju-Jutsu until I was like 15, 16, something like that. Wing Tsun kung fu had been the focus of my martial arts curiosity for quite a while, and one day I saw a poster that there was a Wing Tsun class starting up in my town.

So I went, fell in love, stopped training Ju-Jutsu and trained WT for about a year, year and a half maybe. For some reason, I just grew tired of training. So I took a three year break, and during that time a guy I introduced to the style had been training like a madman, and when I finally decided to start again, he was extremely good lol.

So he was now my trainer, and they had left the WT organisation and joined another Sifus organisation. So we now spelled it Ving Tchun. So I trained and trained and got my ass kicked, it was great (I trained traditional boxing for like six months too).

But now here I stand without a trainer because we didn't have enough members and couldn't keep going. My trainer moved the whole thing to another town, it's not far from where I live but I don't really have the time to get on the bus every day and go train since I study too.

So now it's just me and a friend traning Ving Tchun where I live. Atleast the focus is on Ving Tchun (I made it to the 6th student grade, there are twelve, after that it's the technician and master grades) but we also mix in some TKD and boxing and Ju-Jutsu. It's fun as hell.

I thought that later we could go into ideas, concepts, training methods etc of different styles.

I've been training in ChaYon Ryu for close to two years. I'm currently a blue belt in the system, and if I am to continue towards black belt it will probably be two to three years from now, most likely the latter. And that's only if no stops in training occur. ChaYon Ryu was founded by now grand master Kim Soo, and the world headquarters is located in houston, Texas, which is really nice for me since I live in the burbs just north of houston (Spring, TX). Anyways, I myself have been training under now Master (5th dan) Kit Van Cleave. A 60+ year old irish/american with a think souther accent. I love training with her, she's a very funny person, and you don't really have alot of female martial artists teaching, and definatly not alot her age. I originally got my first taste of martial arts through my friend however, who is a 1st dan in Tae Kwon Doe. He started at around age 12 or so, and I went to a few tournaments and also observed many of his classes. ChaYon Ryu however is not a sport, no tournaments, just what GM kim soo likes to call life style martial art. ChaYon Ryu is essentially a mix of it's parent styles, Chu'an Fa, Tae Kwon Doe, Judo/Jujitsu, and Hapkido/Aikido (hapkido is the heaviest influence for the grappling moves we learn). I was initially unsure about chayon ryu, but the professionalism of the teachers got me past any reservations about such a mix of styles.

As far as training goes (please forgive my spelling, I speak the korean more then I can write it), we use the original 8 palague forms from tae kwon do (which GM kim soo actually helped to create), and the 5 pyang ahn forms, I believe they are called Hayan? or something like that in japanese, and something else in chinese, but they are essentially the same thing just different languages describing the same forms. There are more advanced forms after this, but I have yet to learn them. Essentially we train what I would call basics, where we just run through movements that are called out over and over, and forms and sparring pretty much cover the rest I suppose.

Sounds very cool. So you are a blue belt now. How many belts are there before that?

In Ving Tchun we have two forms that are taught from grade 1-12. They are the Siu Nim Tau (little idea) form, That is the first one and it is often the very first thing you start with. it is separated in 8 parts.

The first 3 parts are done a lot before going into the rest of the form and you get to stand in the basic stance IRAS, that you stand in through the whole form, so the first form is hands only.

And the name little idea refers to the fact that when you start doing the form you get an idea of how the hand movements look, what angles that are used, what the movements are used for and such.

The second form is the Chum Kiu which means bridge seeking form, or contact seeking form.

It consists of 4 long parts, now including stance turns and kicks, and hooking and lifting punches, almost like the boxing hook and uppercut. It is trained so that you learn to close the gap between you and the opponent effectively.

The third form Biu Tze is taught after you have taken the 1st technician grade. It contains elbow strikes and piercing finger strikes, used at the eyes and other soft areas.

And then comes the wodden dummy form, the long pole and the butterfly knives.

And the forms are not movements performed against an imaginary attacker, they are libraries of movments one might say. Enough of form talk.

After a while the student begins training Chi Sao, which is Ving Tchuns trademark exercise. Two people stand in front of eachother and have their arms together in a rolling motion, and from there they try to get through eachothers defences and they get to train with live energy and not predetermined defense and attack patterns.

From that exercise you learn to feel where the energy from the opponent is heading and you can let it pass by deforming your arms into various angles, allowing the attack to dissapear into nothing, while you strike back.

After a while you start training with your eyes closed so that you very effectively increase your sensitivity and reaction reflexes. Chi Sao will make your arms work by themselves, like an auto pilot.

The idea in Ving Tchun is to hit the opponent fast before he hits you and hit him a lot, but we don't want to have to figure out in the moment what to do.

So we always enter with what we call the universal solution, a groin or knee kick and then chain punches, and we do this no matter what the opponent does, that way I don't have think which=slower reaction time.

So the idea is to shower the opponent with as much as possible so that he must think of defence and not attack.

And if his arms get in the way so that we can't connect with our punches, fine, we don't have to think then either, our chi sao reflexes kick in at first contact, and we react to the pressure from the opponents arms and slip around it and keep punishing him.

Here are some video clips from an Estonian Wing Tsun site.

sure... well the belts go from white, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple1, purple2, brown1, brown2, black1st dan, 2nd dan, 3rd dan, ect. generrally speaking, you reach black after 4-5 years of training, and each dan = years till you can reach the next one. So if you just reached 4th, you would wait 4 years to go for 5th.

at the beginning we have 5 basic forms that are learned during white and orange belts, before starting the pyang ahn and palgue forms. Cha-Yon Ryu translates to natural way, and GM Kim Soo likes to translate that to alot of training. If something feels weird, or unatural, it probably is ineficient, or worse it could cause injury. On the face of it this seems like commen sense, and well I guess it is lol, but it is a very sound system. GM Kim Soo is 60+ and my teacher also is 60+, both are still teaching, have not had injuries and are very fit for people their age. We have a training hall oath, the Do Jang Hun, that we recite every time we train.

Seek perfection of character.
Live the way of truth.
Be faithful.
Endeavor.
Respect others.
Refrain from violent behavior.

While it may seem kind of sappy or cliche, I think it really helps to make a dent expecially into many of the young martial artists, even if it is just on an unconcious level.

Control is always a big thing, in both sparring and real life. Keep your distance and avoid the fight if possible, strike with only as much force as neccissary, and get away. Winning fights, especially at the cost of other values, is taught to be the embrace of egoism, which GM Kim Soo tends to look down apon. Very rarely do life and death situations occur, and treating every situation as such does not make sense (I do not mean to say they never occur, just that training for the extreme end and missing practical uses is perhaps not the best way to go about it, unless you are a soldier.) Infact, most enemies that people face today are internal. Stress, worry, insecurity, jealousy, impatience, defeat, and depression are always present, and must always be confronted.

To be fair, while GM Kim Soo promotes these philosphies, different students take different things away. Ideas are harder to teach then the more tangible benifits of the combat side of martial arts training.

As for other training stuff, we have what we call praticals, which are essentially arranged attacks and counters, formals which are simuliar but more formal, and takedowns, counters, and hapkido takedowns. The chinese tightinging way form is also used, and also a more complex version of it as well. It is all choreographed fighting. Sparring is where everything is applied in the free form.

While alot of the counters, take downs, hapkido's are essentially meant to be reflexive actions used to intiate contact, most are desinged to give a strong enough blow to allow you to get away, or to allow you to control your opponent and possibly their weapon. While I would say we have more offensive moves then defensive moves, chaYon Ryu is not promoted as an agressive martial art.

This tends to deviate sharply from your Wing Tsun, which the web site advertises his motto as being fight cruely, or do not fight. The sparing was perhaps entertaining, but far too violent for my taste, and I can tell most stances and moves are by design offensive. When they are sparring and training they tend to expose all of their centerline, directly facing thier opponents. Didn't seem like the safest way to fight, but perhaps injuries are not commen in your style, I do not know. I don't say this to criticize, just saying what I got out of watching it, I feel martial arts is a sort of journey, and that it is different for every person. But their is no "right" way. Your style obviously doesn't follow "natural way" either lol. Many contortions of the arms and body are used, does not appear friendly to the old, and non-athletic. The Chu'an fa influence in our style (otherwise known as Kung Fu) puts in alot of short circuliar arm movements that we are tought through forms and exercises like the tightening way which seemed simuliar to the begining of your exercise untill they started getting funky. The individual, however can still stay linear or circuliar, based on preference or need. It would be interesting for me to try to spar someone of your style, but I wouldn't want the kind of contact I saw in the video's, I have no desire to be injured and I fear that could be a result.

On the site I posted earlier you can find info on GM Kim soo and his lineage (where he learned everything). There is alot of info on the site, but no video, sorry lol.

And in the intrests of disclosure, I did borrow from GM kim Soo in some area's of this post.

*hexediter: When they are sparring and training they tend to expose all of their centerline, directly facing thier opponents*

Well it might look like that, but Wing Tsun is all about defending the centerline (an imaginary vertical line dividing the body in half). That is why we punch along the center of the body, and the chi sao drill is also about keeping my center safe while destroying the opponent.

And of course Ving Tchun does not promote violence if not needed, however, if there is no other way, we attack aggressively not stopping until we are safe.

"The Five Distances Of A Fight
In a real self-defense-situation, rules of fairness (which could alter the outcome of a fight) don't exist! In Wing Tsun we derive from this the consequent importance of a training that is as full and complete as possible, and which acknowledges all of the five distances that are part of a fighting situation.

1st Distance: Fighting With Your Feet
2nd Distance: Fighting With Your Hands
3rd Distance: Fighting With Knees And Elbows
4th Distance: Grappling (Holding, Barring, Throwing, etc.)
5th Distance: Ground Fighting

The Four Principles of WT.

If the way is clear forge ahead!
If there is contact keep glued to it!
If your opponent is stronger, give in!
If the opponent retreats, follow!"

So the emphasis in your style is on forms if I have understood it correctly. How much time is spent on sparring and other physical exercises like push ups, sit ups, weight training, stuff like that? Most Ving Tchun practitioners don't do any or very little weight training.

GM kim soo is against what he sees as punative excersizes, often because they can hurt you if not preformed correctly. While some of our black belts do pushups, other such things in their branch schools, GM has tried hard to discourage that kind of stuff. As far as physical training, that's pretty much left up to the individual, what is tought in class are forms, pratice exercises, and sparring. I expected to be wrong on some of the things I observed, but I was just going on what I saw. Weight training can help in some areas, also can help to cover certain pressure points, but like I said there is no weight training in class.

The most obvious difference to me is the aggresivness, and more geared toward victory in a fight, as opposed to what we are encouraged to do, hit as hard as neccissary and escape. Just depends on your personality, alot of people love to bash aikido in particular because it is pretty much all defensive moves, I just see it as a different philosphy.

When I trained Ving Tchun with a trainer we did some push ups and sit ups and stuff like that but the focus was on Chi Sao, Lat Sao (a fighting drill) and forms.

Grandmaster Leung Ting, leader of the Wing Tsun organisation thinks that there should be no weight training at all.

The muscles that are important in Wing Tsun are the triceps and the backmuscles, big biceps are not needed at all because the biceps contract the arm and can make the punch slower. So we punch with a relaxed arm and a vertical fist.

And people definatly like different things. That is the problem with people these days, that because of MMA and stuff everything is about fighting and nothing more. It's like you can't train just to have fun or whatever.

MMA is great if you want good fight training but some people just like to train a traditional art becuase it makes them feel good.

You mentioned Aikido which I tried a while before, that may not be the best style of defense but I see it more as a lifestyle than anything else. And there is nothing wrong with that. Different people train different Martial arts for different reasons.

I like Ving Tchun because it is both soft and fluid and hard and agressive, Yin and Yang. And Chi Sao is so much fun it's insane!

It looks like we are the only Martial Artists here lol.

i have been trainig chim cham chum chan for 20 years until until until -----just kidding hahahahhaa

Why post in this thread if you are only going to act like a fool?

I sound kinda boring compared to you but I have been learning American Kickboxing for around 4 months. I am currently a red belt, which is the first belt you earn. You start with no belt then do a grading every 2 - 3 months to go up a grade. The belts go red, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black. I'll post more about it later, but for now, I have a headache

That sounds great Megtrix, not the headache, the training lol. It would be great if you shared with us what kind of training exercises you do, how long you train each session and stuff like that. Take care.

I did Muay Thai for 6 months, stopped cause of work, but i am going to get back into it. Muay Thai is the best

From delusion lead me to truth.
From darkness lead me to light.
From death lead me to immortality.

Yipman that is deep. respect.

Quote:

From delusion lead me to truth. From darkness lead me to light. From death lead me to immortality.

neodarunng words?

OK - It's a new day and my headache is gone
So, well Kickboxing isn't all that serious really. It's non-contact, so we basically just do it to get fitter and build confidence and flexibility. Sparring is optional.
We do a Cardiovascular work out for around 15-20 minutes then move on to Pad work where we practice out technique and things... I'm kinda new so I'm not an expert or anything.

Deeindamatrix wrote:

Quote: From delusion lead me to truth. From darkness lead me to light. From death lead me to immortality. neodarunng words?

Yes it is from the Neodammerung, and the text is originally from the Upanishads, the philosophical part of the Veda scriptures.

From delusion lead me to truth: Matrix.

From darkness lead me to light: Matrix Reloaded.

From death lead me to immortality: Matrix Revolutions.

Did you know that Revolutions is an anagram for sun trio love.

Neo1 wrote:

I did Muay Thai for 6 months, stopped cause of work, but i am going to get back into it. Muay Thai is the best

Yeah Muay Thai seems fun and they are tough bastards those Muay Thai folks. I have never trained Muay Thai but I love watching Thai fights and we train a lot of low kicks and such that are not part of the Ving Tchun system. We have mostly straight kicks to the knees or groin.

Megtrix wrote:

OK - It's a new day and my headache is gone So, well Kickboxing isn't all that serious really. It's non-contact, so we basically just do it to get fitter and build confidence and flexibility. Sparring is optional. We do a Cardiovascular work out for around 15-20 minutes then move on to Pad work where we practice out technique and things... I'm kinda new so I'm not an expert or anything.

It sounds great, and it takes a very long time to become an expert. Be patient and have fun training, that's what matters.

heh, I sparred a mai tai guy before, he was highly athletic and flexible, but he was also prone to the vulnrabilities of that sport. Would always face forward much like your style yipman, leaving the middle open, i go for it he ducks down either right of left to block and then try's to kick quickly to counter, but by that time I already can destabalize him with my own thrust kick if I'm fast enough, or I can just wait for the kick I know is coming and counter that move. It is an interesting style, highly offensive, but built for sport not for self defense, much like boxing, and kick boxing. Not saying they aren't effective in a fight, just that they are designed for a world with rules.

btw my younger brother and his friend found the video's I looked at of your system and could not stop laughing. The guy in the red shirt was just knocking peeps all over, which they found hilarious. This is irrelevant to our conversation, but I thought I would share.

Well I think that people who train full contact arts like Muay Thai, boxing etc are better prepared for a confrontation than people who don't train full contact arts because they are used to getting hit, and they can absorb a lot of punishment.

But in the end it's always up to the individual to make his/her chosen style work.

Is this true?

Boxer fights Kung Fu guy. Boxer wins=Kung Fu sucks.

Karate guy fights boxer. Karate guy wins=Boxing sucks.

Kung Fu guy fights Karate guy. Kung Fu guy wins=Karate sucks.

Or is this true?

Boxer fights Kung Fu guy. Boxer wins=Boxer is a better fighter.

Karate guy fights Boxer. Karate guy wins=Karate guy is a better fighter.

Kung Fu guy fights Karate guy. Kung Fu guy wins=Kung Fu guy is a better fighter.

*hexediter: The guy in the red shirt was just knocking peeps all over, which they found hilarious*

Well it might look funny but trust me, it doesen't feel funny

Well the full contact has it's pro's and it's cons. Every style depends on the skill of the individual to some degree.

And as for the guy in the red shirt owning everyone, it didn't look funny to me, was shocking almost. Just curious, do you train under that guy?

Nope. I would like too though lol. I have 2 Ving Tchun trainers and my Sifu lives in Stockholm which is very far from where I live.

We filmed a Ving Tchun show at a boxing event once that you can download at our website, where me and a friend of mine got our asses kicked by our trainer Thomas.

He is now moving on to MMA by the way. He is an extremely good fighter and I think he is going to be very succesful in MMA. He still trains VT to some degree. My other trainer Mathias is the one that I sporadically train with now, otherwise it's just me and my friend.

Do you have MSN?

Karate (Shotokan) my 8 year old started around October last year and after one my wife and I watching (for one lesson) we decided to join up.

We were both very unfit at the time, the last time I did any exercise was around 10 years ago on my push bike.

We are all (Wife, daughter and I) Orange belts now and we are loving it.

Both my Wife and I joined a gym shortly after Karate as we noticed through training and spa’ing our stamina levels were very very low.

Brilliant times.

I did Judo around 20 years ago, wish I stook at it now as the Karate and Gym has given my wife and I a new lease of life.

RodBell wrote:

Karate (Shotokan) my 8 year old started around October last year and after one my wife and I watching (for one lesson) we decided to join up. We were both very unfit at the time, the last time I did any exercise was around 10 years ago on my push bike. We are all (Wife, daughter and I) Orange belts now and we are loving it. Both my Wife and I joined a gym shortly after Karate as we noticed through training and spa’ing our stamina levels were very very low. Brilliant times. I did Judo around 20 years ago, wish I stook at it now as the Karate and Gym has given my wife and I a new lease of life.

Cool, sounds great!

I trained Wing Tsun before (and some other martial arts) and have just gotten started again!

My Wing Tsun Sifu: