»The agents have been decieved! Or the architect is lying...«

Many posts have gone along with the premise that because Smith was an agent he is hip to the whole process of recurring "Ones" and that he fought them before. But I am starting to wonder if the agents really know anything about what's going on.
For instance. In the Matrix 1 Smith is so freaked out because he can't get morpheus to tell him the codes that will allow him to crush Zion, that he evidently breaks the rules and takes out his ear piece. He tells morpheus that he believes that Zion has to be destroyed so that he can escape the Matrix. But he is completely deceived in two different ways.

First of all, his attempt to get the codes is irrelevant. It must have taken the machines much longer than the six odd months from the first movie to the second to make thier army of sentinels. Surely they were making them while Agent Smith was trying to break Morpheus. But you can tell by that scene, in the first matrix that Agent Smith truely believes this is his only shot. Look at the way he yells "No" when Morpheus is escaping.
But from the architects percpective, Morpheus is irrelevant. They are building an army as they have 5 times before to drill and crush Zion. They don't need any codes. Obviously Smith isn't privy to this information. In this sense, Smith is a pawn.
Secondly, Agent Smith's hope to escape the Matrix is a misguided hope. He is never going to escape. HE is never meant to escape. There will always be a new "one" for him to fight, always be a new group of rebels to keep in line. Zion will never be crushed. It's constant renewal is essential to the machines. They will never knowingly let the war be won. They need the process to continue, so they will always need Smith there to do his Job.

In reloaded Smith seems to have contempt for the other agents. He seems to have contempt for the whole system. HE looks as though he is pissed off at everything. Perhaps he understands now that he has been unknowingly trapped inside a prison too. Perhaps he is angry at the makers of the matrix and this motivates his hunger for power so that he can either destroy it all, or over power those who had overpowered him.

Another scene in reloaded that makes me wonder about the agents is when the agent on the semi is about to destroy the key-maker. Doesn't he know that they key maker has to get the key to Neo so that Neo can get into the source and thus keep the matrix running? Obviously this agent knows nothing about what the architect tells neo about the ongoing relationship between the one and the matrix. IF what the architect says is true, this agent is about to destroy neo's chances of getting into the source and thus destroy the entire matrix.

Obviously someone is lying. Either the agents have been decieved, or the Agents know what is going on and the architect has flat out lied to Neo.

It is a pickle, no doubt about it.

I agree that looking at it logically, it doesnt make a lot of sense.

But I think the agents do what they are programmed to do. Its not a matter of being lied to or anything- they serve a certain purpose, and they dont need to know all circumstances or even the truth to do that. They have no choice.

And then there is the prophecy: Neo cant die- if he did, he wouldnt really be the One would he? Likewise, I guess that the One ALWAYS makes it to the source. Its destiny. Its a matter of time.

As a matter of fact, the machine world is simply business as usual for the most part because the important events occur on an almost miraculous schedule. Zion's destruction could only happen after Neo reaches the source, so the machines can drill away, the agents can torture all they like, etc because in a very zen-like fashion, they cant really rush mother nature, they cant speed up the moment Neo is supposed to reach the source, and they cant reach Zion until a certain time.

I think Smith however IS quite aware of history. I think he was there, and he is aware of it, and he is sick of watching and waiting and now that he is free, he wants to do all he can to destroy it all and acheive his own nirvana.

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I think the agents do what they are programmed to do.

IF that were the case, wouldn't they be programmed not to delete the key maker?

They are programs, but they are not programs the way we think of programs. You have to remember, they are programs that can think for themselves. They are intelligent.

Neo can die, he already did. And destiny isn't an answer. IF everything were subject to destiny then all the characters would have to do is sit around and have blind Zion orgies, becasue hey, sooner or later destiny and fate will take over. Destiny is a load of crap. Neo is the "one" becasue he chooses to believe he is the "one." He can do all that crazy stuff becasue he chooses to believe he can do it. Remember there are no laws of physics in the matrix, the only limits are the limits inside your mind. The whole thing about an anomoly is crap. The architect is lying. He wants neo to think that neo is the one becasue of some freak occurnce because to the machines the other truth is frigtening.
If neo is the one becasue of choice. Then anyone can choose to be the one. Isn't that what neo promises to teach everyone at the end of the first movie?

You have to remember what the matri is. It's not that neo can't be killed, it's that neo can't be tricked into thinking he is dead inside of a computer program.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the architect is lying.

No, I think there has to be an allowance that there is something supernatural about Neo and his circumstances. You are right- Neo can die, and did. But not at the wrong time- namely when Cipher was about to pull his plug. How about how the events palyed out just the way they were supposed to when they met the Merovingian and Persephone? Consider the perfect timing of how Neo entered the door in the hallway leading to the source and the coordination of events with trinity- and how even though he tried to prevent it, she still fell out that window and got shot EXACTLY as it was shown him it was going to be. When the Oracle gave him the guidance he needed concerning Morpheus and the rescue attempt, again, there was a prophecy in the mix. There is at the very least a pattern of events that takes place at certain places to certain people at certain times. Even Smith says things are happening just like before. Therefore, the Keymaker wasnt going to die until his time was up.

My point isnt that people have no choice and could be lazy- not everyone in Zion even believes the prophecy. The point is that in this movie there are things that almost magically happen at the right place and time. Its not mere coincidence. The Oracle knew Neo's path the same as the Architect was expecting him. Freely as he made the choices leading him there, there was a certain expectation of him to do those things. Because of that- whether the agents or Zionists are aware of or believe it, some things are going to happen regardless, because it isnt a matter of hope, its a matter of time.

Maybe it isnt supernatural or spiritual at all- maybe its all analytical prediction- like the Neo's in all the tv's of the Architect's room. Still- certain ones in the matrix- namely the oracle and the Architect, had good reason to know ahead of time that things were going to occur in a specific fashion.

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How about how the events palyed out just the way they were supposed to when they met the Merovingian and Persephone?

Why do you say "supposed" to? Just because morpheus said it couldn't have worked out any other way doesn't mean he was right. Morpheus is not God, he has the same room for error that everyone does.

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Consider the perfect timing of how Neo entered the door in the hallway leading to the source and the coordination of events with trinity- and how even though he tried to prevent it, she still fell out that window and got shot EXACTLY as it was shown him it was going to be.

I think the movie makes a stronger case for this when the walkway is shaken loose just as MOrpheus says there are no accidents. IF the walkway doesn't break, then trinity might never have had to go in.

But that is terrible logic you use to get to your point about the key maker. My point is that the Agent should know not to kill they key maker until he gives his key to neo. And aside from that doesn't the key maker need to give the right key to the next "one." When the agent says "you are meant for only one more thing, deletion" He is absolutely wrong according to the architect's speech. You ca't get out of that by talking about destiny. This has nothing to do with destiny. Or fate. Or things happening the way they should. This has to do with the agents not knowing what the role of the key maker is. Clearly they should, if the architect is telling the truth.

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The Oracle knew Neo's path

There is nothing magic about the oracle knowing Neo's path, she told it to him. Remember how neo thought she told him he wasn't the one? She never said that, she just implied it and he followed. The same is true with the source. She says he must go there and he follows. There is no fate in this movie. It is not NEo's fate to go to the source. IN m1 Neo goes back into the matrix because of what the oracle says, he stands up to smith becasue of what Morpheus says, He sees the code because morpheus tells him he will be able to, in reloaded he goes to the source because the oracle tells him to, he takes the door back to the matrix because the Architect manipulates him with reverse psychology. Neo is choosing everything that happens to him, because he is choosing to believe what people tell him, and then choosing to act on those beliefs. This is really a question about the power of Faith.

And i don't think the architect was waiting for Neo. I think he hangs out there all the time, watching tv.

heres some common sense..

A lot of people (not-so-hardcore-matrix-fans) would be REPELLED from watching the movie if they knew the architect was lying in Reloaded. It was hard enough for most ordinary people to understand what he was saying, telling them it was just a lie will be enough confusion to cause a concussion.

Trying to make any kind of sense out of what you just said is giving me a concussion.

Well, obviously we disagree about a few things.

I dont think the agents needed to know they needed to preserve the keymaker- same as they didnt need to handle the One with kid gloves either, because their collective purpose and the One's purpose and the The Architect's purpose do not need to be attuned to one another. If you take it back to computer analogy, programs conflict with each other all the time- but that doesnt mean one of them is being dishonest.

The first movie indicates that there is a lot more going on than simple belief as to how neo can do what he does. Cipher tells him others didnt just try and fail, they tried and died. They also believed then, but what good did that do for them?

I didnt think the merovingian meeting followed prophesy because morpheus says so. I say that because the Oracle said be there at this time and meet this man and it works out, even after it seemingly fails.

I just think it a little silly to brush aside all the coincidences in a movie that seems at least partially based on messianic concepts (as well as a zillion other concepts). As I keep saying, its not about hope, its about time.

The One obviously follows a certain path- theres a lot of references to previous "Ones" before Neo who followed a same path in the past. Smith says "its happening just as before"; Merovingian says Neo's "predecessors had more respect"; the Architect's dialogue etc. On the flip side of that is the bits about the prophecy and the Oracle and the dreams- references that some people have precognition about Neo's path before he gets there. And both sides- the references to the past and the foretelling of his future- both point to a destiny that the One is to fulfill.

I think the total fulfillment of the prophecy etc will come from Neo moving past his destiny's apparent purpose to discover a new one based on choice (and even alluded to in the very beginning when Morpheus first meets him and asks him if he believes in destiny and Neo says no because he likes to think he can make his own choices). But regardless, so far I think there has been a path that Neo was pre-destined to follow. Its like when the Oracle tells him that whats really going to bake his noodle is would he have broken the vase if she hadnt told him it was going to happen.

I got the impression that the agents knew part of what was going on but not the whole story I.e they know that there is a Matrix and a Zion but don't know that it's all one big vicious cycle..

When agent smith said to Neo in reloaded (very rough translation) "I'm here to take away your purpose like you took from me" I took this to mean that agent smith now realises that the role he plays in the matrix has no real purpose other than leading the one to the source, so he's decided to destroy the lot instead...

Another thing, why exactly would Smith want the codes in order to destroy Zion... "Zion Mainframe" and all that stuff, whats that all about?! If Zion was a place in the real world, what do these access codes mean? Is it something to do with the dock gate, and how the people go into a matrix type world to control it (that big white control room type thing we see in M2).. and the hardlines in and out of zion.. what is that all about? If they had hardlines going into Zion, why would people need to goto broadcast level. Im confused

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Aceventura3203 wrote:

First of all, his attempt to get the codes is irrelevant.

Not if there is a reward for getting them.