»My issue with Neo & M2«

My issue with the Matrix II and Neo is that by the end of part one he has discovered that he is the one (or at the very least has supreme power).

He can stop the program that "governs" the bullets. He can "fly". He can "defy gravity".

If he can defy these programs, then why does he still engage in combat? Why would he fight Seraph? Or Agent Smith? Or anyone for that matter...

I could understand fighting another "human" because they are not really "in the matrix". So he cannot control their actions... I could buy that reasoning. Albeit, it would be a tough pill to swallow.

But, a program is just a program. Just like he can control the bullet program, he should be able to stop any program. Thus, why does Neo fight? Why didn't he just go "NO!" to Seraph and look at him funny?

That is my issue.

Sir Reef.

SirReef wrote:

If he can defy these programs, then why does he still engage in combat? Why would he fight Seraph? Or Agent Smith? Or anyone for that matter...

I've heard this asked bout the burly brawl.

All the rules that Neo "bends" are matrix rules, they govern the matrix environment itself. Neo is connected to the matrix.

I see Seraph, Agent Smith and the Oracle for that matter as seperate programs running within the matrix, but not part of it.

The matrix is in a sense the network through which these programs communicate.

This also explains why smith needs to jab his hand into someone to replicate. If they were all one system he could do that without contact.

So why didn't Neo fly off at the start of the Burly Brawl?

Well its the fight or flight thing isn't it.

Neo beleived he could beat smith, or at least give him a good paggering. only when severely outnumbered did he have to retreat. It's a testosterone thing.

Beside I think he enjoyed it.

marl64 wrote:

I've heard this asked bout the burly brawl. All the rules that Neo "bends" are matrix rules, they govern the matrix environment itself. Neo is connected to the matrix. I see Seraph, Agent Smith and the Oracle for that matter as seperate programs running within the matrix, but not part of it. The matrix is in a sense the network through which these programs communicate. This also explains why smith needs to jab his hand into someone to replicate. If they were all one system he could do that without contact.

Ok, I can see that. Or at least accept that. It explains the whole not dominating a program concept. But, then, why is Neo not injecting himself and exploding the multiple Agent Smiths?

So the programs are the governers of the rules then? They are separate but intrinsic. I can accept that.

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So why didn't Neo fly off at the start of the Burly Brawl? Well its the fight or flight thing isn't it. Neo beleived he could beat smith, or at least give him a good paggering. only when severely outnumbered did he have to retreat. It's a testosterone thing. Beside I think he enjoyed it.

Why do people call this the "Burly Brawl"?

Personally, I get sick of the fight scenes. They bore me. I wish Neo could dispense with them quickly and then get on to the more intellectual stuff.

I mean, it was really dumb when Seraph said: "You can never know someone until you fight them." What the heck is that?! At least the things in part one made sense and were self-contained. That doesn't even hint at sanity. Hopefully they explain that in part three.

As it stands, it seems like a poor excuse for another fight scene. One that establishes Seraph as a tough guy.

Sir Reef.

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But, a program is just a program. Just like he can control the bullet program, he should be able to stop any program. Thus, why does Neo fight? Why didn't he just go "NO!" to Seraph and look at him funny?

This is an easy problem to answer if you look at the whole trilogy as Neo's journey - he's learning all the way along - its getting more complex and he's learning all the time.

He stops the bullets thats one level. But before he meets sarif he's never met a sarif before - he's more complex than a bullet - and, well he's different anyway - Neo's getting all sorts thrown at him all the time but he soon cracks each one - i call these "metaphorical milestones" they are visual representations of key acheivements in Neo's journey - i love watching the films from this perspective.

(like a computer hacker - each time he gets a new tricky peice of code to crack it takes a bit of "focus" - you can see the moment when he acheives this focus often - they sometimes punctuate this with a bit of a dramatic sound effect - he usually looks more calm - and then just knows - its wicked)

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Personally, I get sick of the fight scenes. They bore me. I wish Neo could dispense with them quickly and then get on to the more intellectual stuff.

The fight scenes are a representation of an intelectual battle on a higher level. The whole thing is a metaphor.

I think they are necessary althought they are a bit long!. But this is just becasue walking the path is not simple - otherwise everybody could be doing it.

I've been reading various theories on various forums, so these ideas
are not wholly my own.

One theory is that Neo is in fact a program. So when Seraph says, "The only way
to truly know someone is to fight them." He is indeed talking about two
programs evaluating each other. They may be two AI programs in fact.

You are right in saying that Neo can stop bullets because the human mind can
adapt and dream, and come up with non-logical solutions. (Though, I'm contraditing
myself here if I say Neo is a program and he has a 'human mind', maybe that
is what Revolutions is all about?) Smith was bound to
the mathematical world of the Matrix and computer programming. Key word there is
"WAS". Smith states that some of Neo's code may have be over written on his.
So now Smith can adapt and improvise.

First Neo fights new new 'beefcake' Agents on steroids. Only after fighting them
does Neo realize that they are "upgrades". The Matrix programming is trying to
adjust to Neo's new powers.

Then at the beginning of the 'Burly Brawl' Neo is overly confident. He thinks
he can whip Smith as in M1. He is in for a rude awakening. Smith can now adapt,
and improvise. Neo starts to break a sweat. Smith also adjusts knowing that
at the beginning Neo is still too powerfull for 20 Smiths, so he says, "more, need
more!". The fight ends in a draw because now both Agent Smith and Neo are both the
same thing, programs that can make choices of the own free will.

In conclusion, the purpose of the Seraph fight is for the two programs to
evaluate each other. The W brother's obviously chose Kung-Fu as their method
of communication because it sells tickets and looks cool on the big screen,
and follows along with their Anime influences.

One question I have is that why didn't Neo fight Seraph in M1 before seeing the
Oracle? Perhaps because Morpheus did when he went to see her, and so the
Oracle trusted Morpheus already.

nice thread. ya'll are writing some smart stuff. i may not have anything valuable to add, but that ain't gonna stop me from writing. HA

maybe fighting is part of the fundamental programming of the matrix. fighting is the vehicle for influence because it's such a basic part of our nature, not because its an excuse to add scenes to the movie. the architect said he had to program the flaws of human nature into the matrix, and aggresion and fighting is definately one of those flaws. even from the earliest of ages we learn to hit when we want or we're pissed off about something.

so, fighting could the the interface by which one in the matrix can overwhelm and influence another sentient being (beit strictly program, or programmed human) even the whole kung fu and hand to hand combat thing could be the way powerful programs have to fight. when programs are powerful enough to bend most rules of the matrix, most weapons are rendered useless. the only option is to put the other program in a choke hold until they say "uncle."

as fas neo not being able to look at smith and go "NO!" (and yes we can all visualize the goofy grin) in the dogo scene in M1, morpheus said, "some rules can be bent, and some rules can be broken." that statement probably also implies, "some rules you can't bend or break." otherwise all rules could be broken and not just bent.

not fighting would make the matrix a very boring movie

Any thoughts on how the Agents (maybe Smith specifically) in M1 modified Neo's shell?

Smith: What good is a phone call... if you cannot...speak?

If Agents can do that at will, why don't they handcuff people's fingers together from a distance so they can't fight back, or cause escapees to trip, or simply break bones at a distance either? I know, that would make it more of a horror movie than an action movie, but you see my point.

I'm willing to think that that's just part of the dream, or Neo's recollection of the interview, not necessarily what actually happened. Since Neo wakes up in the next scene, we can assume that the previous scene was entirely within a dream, albeit with elements of reality (the bug).

How do you reconcile this scene with your theories that programs can't directly modify eachother, only the Matrix environment?

Cherub wrote:

Any thoughts on how the Agents (maybe Smith specifically) in M1 modified Neo's shell? Smith: What good is a phone call... if you cannot...speak? If Agents can do that at will, why don't they handcuff people's fingers together from a distance so they can't fight back, or cause escapees to trip, or simply break bones at a distance either? I know, that would make it more of a horror movie than an action movie, but you see my point. I'm willing to think that that's just part of the dream, or Neo's recollection of the interview, not necessarily what actually happened. Since Neo wakes up in the next scene, we can assume that the previous scene was entirely within a dream, albeit with elements of reality (the bug). How do you reconcile this scene with your theories that programs can't directly modify eachother, only the Matrix environment?

My guess would be that while you are directly plugged into the Matrix the agents can do whatever they want to you. (ie. take over your body, cover your mouth, etc) It is when you unplug and reconnect outside of the Matrix, then they cannot. That is why they can't take over Morpheus or Trinity.

At least that would be my thought on it.

Sir Reef.

Thomas Anderson could be easily manipulated by Agent Smith in the inreogation scene wher they bug him, because Thomas Anderson doesnt possess any knowledge that he can fight that sort of thing. In fact the whole scene is so horrific that he believes it to have been only a nightmare afterwards.

My guess is that all the human batteries that accept the program, essentially are part of the program, in that they can be used and manipulated with ease. Because they are passive, they can be exploited.

SirReef wrote:

I mean, it was really dumb when Seraph said: "You can never know someone until you fight them."

This explains why the machines fight helpless humans for 100 years: To study them.

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Any thoughts on how the Agents (maybe Smith specifically) in M1 modified Neo's shell?

This phenomenon was addressed by Morpheus in the "Woman-in-the-Red-Dress" scene (i.e. the Agent Training Program) in The Matrix.

Morpheus explains that anyone who is still part of the Matrix is subject to being usurped by an Agent. Forgive me for not having the direct quote, but Morpheus tells Neo, "If you're not one of us, you may be one of them."[paraphrasing]

Just as the humans have a set of rules inside the matrix.. so do the programs. Agent Smith is controlled by a set of rules. That's why he isn't able to copy over people and stuff like that in the first movie.

Remember that the reason the humans are in the matrix is because machine AI advanced and let to the machines and humans having a war. The programs inside the matrix also have very advanced AI. You can tell when Agent Smith interrogates Morpheus that he has gone beyond being just a normal program and is pretty pissed off about the humans being around. He WANTS to kill all the humans.. .thats why he wants the Zion codes.

If the Agents were given the abilities to do whatever they pleased Smith would have killed off all the humans long ago. Programs go into exile all the time... giving ultimate 'power' inside the matrix to a program would be insane.

@bono:

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One question I have is that why didn't Neo fight Seraph in M1 before seeing the Oracle? Perhaps because Morpheus did when he went to see her, and so the Oracle trusted Morpheus already.

Nope. It is because she knows about Smith, and that he might come after her. And it seems like he finds her in Revolutions...

I think the matrix needs fight scenes, as they are what draws people to the movie in the first place. You hear about the amazingly choreographed fight scenes, and gravity defying leaps, and think, I want to see that...

I think it would be far more interesting however, for Neo to simply destroy all the agents and get on with discovering what the matrix really is...

emp wrote:

It is because she knows about Smith, and that he might come after her.

...and could have taken over Neo. Thus Seraph is the taster.