»Metaphysical perspective«

I think this may apply here.
There is a metaphysical perspective that we are multi-dimensional beings. That is, we live in various planes of existence simultaneously, such as our physical plane, astral plane, physical plane, and divine plane.
Also, there is the belief that one can tap into any power, they just have to know how to utilize it. I don't know if it's part of New Age or something else.
Maybe Neo tapped into his "divine plane" of existence when he was seeing in gold?
This maybe has something to do with mystical beliefs?

So, if you see it this way. Life really itself is a matrix. This applies to Zion. The people in the machine world were living in the real world simultaneously with the "Matrix" world. The physical realm of existance can be seen as a "matrix" that we are living in, simultaneosly with mental and spiritual realms.

It's hard to explain.

Yeah I think I got your point here, and that's what the movie is showing us : a man can jump from one world to another and use the rules of the different system to his advantage.

Maybe that some people in our reality, that some would call magicians or sorcerers, are able to tape into the system that forms our universe.

avolitionist wrote:

I think this may apply here. There is a metaphysical perspective that we are multi-dimensional beings. That is, we live in various planes of existence simultaneously, such as our physical plane, astral plane, physical plane, and divine plane.

Hm,.. I wouldn't say we live in different planes, but we are made of different planes, or bodies, or sheaths...

avolitionist wrote:

Also, there is the belief that one can tap into any power, they just have to know how to utilize it.

Yoga, for example, is a way to become aware of the different bodies and learn - to a certain extent - to control them,... or oneself, through realisation of them.

avolitionist wrote:

I don't know if it's part of New Age or something else.

I guess, it's a pretty timeless approach...
wilber.shambhala.com...

avolitionist wrote:

Maybe Neo tapped into his "divine plane" of existence when he was seeing in gold? This maybe has something to do with mystical beliefs?

I'd say so; gradually, Neo felt the spirit reality, and in the end became fully aware of it.

avolitionist wrote:

So, if you see it this way. Life really itself is a matrix. This applies to Zion. The people in the machine world were living in the real world simultaneously with the "Matrix" world. The physical realm of existance can be seen as a "matrix" that we are living in, simultaneosly with mental and spiritual realms.

As I understand it, Zion, the Matrix and 01 represent the three most obvious "bodies" of mankind:
body, mind and spirit, with the Matrix representing the collect mind, the "normal" world, as the "normal" person does perceive it; the chrysalis from where one can start the path of growing one's consciousness towards a realisation of the other bodies, and eventually our spirit reality (-> Neo's path)

avolitionist wrote:

It's hard to explain.

So true!

tozy wrote:

wilber.shambhala.com...

That diagram kicks serious ass.

I've been looking for something like that; something that summarises the links between various world theologies and philosophies on the realm of spirituality.

I still hate Wilber for ripping off my "complex literature" terminology, in reference to what the second and third movies make of the first film, but I gotta give him some kudos for his efforts, though.

max314 wrote:

tozy wrote: wilber.shambhala.com... That diagram kicks serious ass. I've been looking for something like that; something that summarises the links between various world theologies and philosophies on the realm of spirituality. I still hate Wilber for ripping off my "complex literature" terminology, in reference to what the second and third movies make of the first film, but I gotta give him some kudos for his efforts, though.

LMAO...yeah, yours. You just don't stop.

Gina Rink wrote:

LMAO...yeah, yours. You just don't stop.

I used that term back during the 03/04 period on internet forums. Either he lifted it, or it was just a coincidence. I know it's a small things but, either way, I'm flattered and I'm happy that the comment is on the DVD.

What's your problem, anyway?

I searched for the word Sefirot (that appears in the link given above) and I found somethin interesting, maybe related to the three pipelines Neo follows to go to the Machine City :

The Sephiroth are organised into 3 different columns or gimel kavim ("three lines" in Hebrew):

Central column:
Kether heads the central column of the tree, which is known metaphorically speaking as the "Pillar of Mildness" and is associated with Hebrew letter Aleph, "the breath", and the air element. It is a neutral one, a balance between the two opposing forces of male and female tendencies. Some teachings describe the sephirot on the centre pillar as gender-neutral, while others say that the sephirot vary in their sexual attributions.

Right column, in Hebrew kav yamin:
Chokhmah heads the right column of the tree, metaphorically speaking the "Pillar of Mercy", associated with the Hebrew letter Shin, the fire element, and the male aspect;

Left column, in Hebrew kav smol:
The left column is headed by Binah and is called the "Pillar of Severity." It is associated with Hebrew letter Mem, the water element and the female aspect.


More details here :

en.wikipedia.org...

Coincidence ?

max314 wrote:

Gina Rink wrote: LMAO...yeah, yours. You just don't stop. I used that term back during the 03/04 period on internet forums. Either he lifted it, or it was just a coincidence. I know it's a small things but, either way, I'm flattered and I'm happy that the comment is on the DVD. What's your problem, anyway?

That's quite a claim there, max314. But you didn't provide any proof, and we know how much you like statements to have proof.

I wasn't able to find you using that term, and especially not in the 03/04 period, in searches here, or at TLFC, TMC, MFN or X-Matrix.

What I did find was Wilber using almost that term in his on-line chat with Larry Wachowski. That was in April '04.

Perhaps you'd like to show us proof of this extraordinary claim? Preferably from a site that clearly shows edits.

Now that max314 has returned, perhaps he'd be good enough to respond to this; it is, after all, quite the claim of his.

Incidentally, reading over the other thread, I want to say: I Heart CaptPostMod.

demifey wrote:

Incidentally, reading over the other thread, I want to say: I Heart CaptPostMod.

Thanks

demifey wrote:

That's quite a claim there, max314. But you didn't provide any proof, and we know how much you like statements to have proof. I wasn't able to find you using that term, and especially not in the 03/04 period, in searches here, or at TLFC, TMC, MFN or X-Matrix.

Me neither. I ran a search for it, but it didn't yield any results, unfortunately (I think I may have used it on Rotten Tomatoes or Empire Online, actually...I honestly can't remember, it was so long ago).

It's alright, though, you don't have to believe me. I can assure you that I did use the term in relation to the trilogy before Wilber, however. It's a relatively small thing, anyway.

Quote:

What I did find was Wilber using almost that term in his on-line chat with Larry Wachowski. That was in April '04.

Yeah, that's when my ears first perked up and I thought "son of a bitch stole my line"

Quote:

Perhaps you'd like to show us proof of this extraordinary claim? Preferably from a site that clearly shows edits.

Wow, you really don't trust me (or like me), do you? No matter. I honestly can't find it at the moment, so if you want to think me a liar, that's unfortunate, but I'm okay with it. Like I said, it's not really that big a deal anyway.

Apocryphe wrote:

I searched for the word Sefirot (that appears in the link given above) and I found somethin interesting, maybe related to the three pipelines Neo follows to go to the Machine City : The Sephiroth are organised into 3 different columns or gimel kavim ("three lines" in Hebrew): Central column: Kether heads the central column of the tree, which is known metaphorically speaking as the "Pillar of Mildness" and is associated with Hebrew letter Aleph, "the breath", and the air element. It is a neutral one, a balance between the two opposing forces of male and female tendencies. Some teachings describe the sephirot on the centre pillar as gender-neutral, while others say that the sephirot vary in their sexual attributions. Right column, in Hebrew kav yamin: Chokhmah heads the right column of the tree, metaphorically speaking the "Pillar of Mercy", associated with the Hebrew letter Shin, the fire element, and the male aspect; Left column, in Hebrew kav smol: The left column is headed by Binah and is called the "Pillar of Severity." It is associated with Hebrew letter Mem, the water element and the female aspect. More details here : en.wikipedia.org... Coincidence ?

Very well spotted! Actually, Guy Ritchie's Revolver uses this same system to represent elements within that particular film, too. Not too surprising owing to the fact that he admitted he was influenced by Kabbalah when making the movie (most major studios refused to make it after he refused to remove the references on their request).

max314 wrote:

demifey wrote: That's quite a claim there, max314. But you didn't provide any proof, and we know how much you like statements to have proof. I wasn't able to find you using that term, and especially not in the 03/04 period, in searches here, or at TLFC, TMC, MFN or X-Matrix. Me neither. I ran a search for it, but it didn't yield any results, unfortunately (I think I may have used it on Rotten Tomatoes or Empire Online, actually...I honestly can't remember, it was so long ago). It's alright, though, you don't have to believe me. I can assure you that I did use the term in relation to the trilogy before Wilber, however. It's a relatively small thing, anyway. Quote: What I did find was Wilber using almost that term in his on-line chat with Larry Wachowski. That was in April '04. Yeah, that's when my ears first perked up and I thought "son of a bitch stole my line" Quote: Perhaps you'd like to show us proof of this extraordinary claim? Preferably from a site that clearly shows edits. Wow, you really don't trust me (or like me), do you? No matter. I honestly can't find it at the moment, so if you want to think me a liar, that's unfortunate, but I'm okay with it. Like I said, it's not really that big a deal anyway.

As you might imagine, your "assurance" that you used the term first is meaningless to me. What I want is proof. You made the statement that Wilber may have pinched the term from you. On another site, you even went so far as to call him a "plagiarizing bastard".

What I did find interesting was that from the threads that were active at the time of the Integral interview, at no time did you comment that you had used that term first, that Wilber had used your term.

I did take into consideration that it might have been said at Rotten Tomatoes, or in an archieved forum thread, so I also did a Google search. That provided no results other than an archived thread (at Rotten Tomatoes, I believe) wherein you called Mr. Wilber a "plagiarizing bastard". And that post was dated long after the interview took place.

It seems to me that if you want to make a claim such as you did, it is incumbent upon you to provide something as evidence other than your "assurance". Burden of proof, you know....

The record seems to indicate that it was Mr. Wilber who publicly used the term first, not you. It does appear that you're giving yourself too much credit, max314.

It's amusing to see how you cavalierly dismiss your near-libelous characterization of Mr. Wilber as something that's "not really that big a deal anyway." (I know that's not literally what you said, but the implicaition is there.)

I know, and I said you can think me a liar. I can't find the proof, so the best I can do is offer you my personal assurance that it's true. That's the best I can do.

The rest is your choice.

max314 wrote:

The rest is your choice.

I think demifey chose to believe it's not true. So what now?

CaptPostMod, I didn't decide as to its veracity until I had checked it out so I not only did individual searches at several Matrix forums, including specifically finding and reading through the threads relating to that interview (since forum search functions can be rather funky and unreliable), but also performed net-wide Google searches using various keywords.

The only result showing max314 having used that term was in his disparaging comment about Mr. Wilber long after the interview had been aired.

It is cute, though, how he tries to shift the burden onto me by saying that it's up to me to believe him or not.

It's not even a matter of belief, max314. Either you can provide evidence for your claim, or you can't. You've now said you are unable to do so. Your "assurance" is both completely inadequate and meaningless, and certainly not admissible as proof of anything.

Your problem is that you dislike admitting you could ever be in error.

Either that, or you're delusional.

demifey wrote:

CaptPostMod, I didn't decide as to its veracity until I had checked it out so I not only did individual searches at several Matrix forums, including specifically finding and reading through the threads relating to that interview (since forum search functions can be rather funky and unreliable), but also performed net-wide Google searches using various keywords. The only result showing max314 having used that term was in his disparaging comment about Mr. Wilber long after the interview had been aired. It is cute, though, how he tries to shift the burden onto me by saying that it's up to me to believe him or not. It's not even a matter of belief, max314. Either you can provide evidence for your claim, or you can't. You've now said you are unable to do so. Your "assurance" is both completely inadequate and meaningless, and certainly not admissible as proof of anything. Your problem is that you dislike admitting you could ever be in error. Either that, or you're delusional.

CaptPostMod wrote:

I think demifey chose to believe it's not true. So what now?

As members of a particular community that is - let's face it - less than mainstream in its standing, there's generally an element of encouragement and support that's kind of implicit in that sort of a situation.

Yes, we have our little disagreements on various topics concerning the thing we all love, and it's all good and well to call each other a few names and have a good time. But away from those little squabbles, we are all still Matrix fans to the core. To quote a particular someone, "it's the reason I'm here - it's the reason we're all here". Like a family of any description, we're all united by that one common interest, one common goal, one common love.

When I made a passing comment about how I remember coining the phrase "complex literature" with respect to the Matrix series (which is no big deal, I know, but I thought it would make for interesting banter), and how surprised I was when hearing Wilber use it, I wasn't really expecting any kind of response. Instead, I'm put on trial with the responsibility of the "burden of proof" put on me like I was some sort of criminal who couldn't be trusted. I don't know where that came from. Maybe Demifey took our previous, minor differences of opinion on the Matrix story to heart, I don't know.

But what I do know is that, if Demifey had said the same thing to me, I wouldn't have to search the internet to know that s/he was telling the truth. That's just the kind of trust you have in a family.

So, if I'm not trusted, then there's no point in me sticking around in a Matrix community.

You're funny

CaptPostMod wrote:

You're funny

Cheers.

max314 wrote:

demifey wrote: CaptPostMod, I didn't decide as to its veracity until I had checked it out so I not only did individual searches at several Matrix forums, including specifically finding and reading through the threads relating to that interview (since forum search functions can be rather funky and unreliable), but also performed net-wide Google searches using various keywords. The only result showing max314 having used that term was in his disparaging comment about Mr. Wilber long after the interview had been aired. It is cute, though, how he tries to shift the burden onto me by saying that it's up to me to believe him or not. It's not even a matter of belief, max314. Either you can provide evidence for your claim, or you can't. You've now said you are unable to do so. Your "assurance" is both completely inadequate and meaningless, and certainly not admissible as proof of anything. Your problem is that you dislike admitting you could ever be in error. Either that, or you're delusional. CaptPostMod wrote: I think demifey chose to believe it's not true. So what now? As members of a particular community that is - let's face it - less than mainstream in its standing, there's generally an element of encouragement and support that's kind of implicit in that sort of a situation. Yes, we have our little disagreements on various topics concerning the thing we all love, and it's all good and well to call each other a few names and have a good time. But away from those little squabbles, we are all still Matrix fans to the core. To quote a particular someone, "it's the reason I'm here - it's the reason we're all here". Like a family of any description, we're all united by that one common interest, one common goal, one common love. When I made a passing comment about how I remember coining the phrase "complex literature" with respect to the Matrix series (which is no big deal, I know, but I thought it would make for interesting banter), and how surprised I was when hearing Wilber use it, I wasn't really expecting any kind of response. Instead, I'm put on trial with the responsibility of the "burden of proof" put on me like I was some sort of criminal who couldn't be trusted. I don't know where that came from. Maybe Demifey took our previous, minor differences of opinion on the Matrix story to heart, I don't know. But what I do know is that, if Demifey had said the same thing to me, I wouldn't have to search the internet to know that s/he was telling the truth. That's just the kind of trust you have in a family. So, if I'm not trusted, then there's no point in me sticking around in a Matrix community.

What a load of crap. And another attempt to shift this onto my shoulders.

As you're well aware, max314, when Matrix fans make comments, they must be prepared to defend them. Actually, the same goes for anyone else, but you seem to be putting us Matrix fans into a separate division. It's total rubbish to say that a Matrix fan should simply accept the word of another Matrix fan without evidence.

You took exception to Gina Rink's questioning of your claim, as if the problem stemmed from her rather than from your own bombast.

You've further taken exception to my questioning it and to my attempts to determine whether your claim had any merit.

Guess what, bucko? That only goes to show the deficit lies with you, regardless of how much you try to dress it up and give it over to someone else to bear.

For the record, I do not think you're a liar. But I do think that you heard the term during that Integral Naked interview and then forgot you heard it there. When you later began to use the term, you thought you had originated it. There's no shame in that, max314. It's the kind of thing that happens to many people, myself included.

But rather than even consider that possibility, you instead cast aspersions on a well-known figure, a figure who has access to, and the ear of at least one of the Wachowski Brothers, if not both.

Ego, much?

Uh...

Ahh nevermind.

demifey wrote:

What a load of crap. And another attempt to shift this onto my shoulders. As you're well aware, max314, when Matrix fans make comments, they must be prepared to defend them. Actually, the same goes for anyone else, but you seem to be putting us Matrix fans into a separate division. It's total rubbish to say that a Matrix fan should simply accept the word of another Matrix fan without evidence. You took exception to Gina Rink's questioning of your claim, as if the problem stemmed from her rather than from your own bombast. You've further taken exception to my questioning it and to my attempts to determine whether your claim had any merit. Guess what, bucko? That only goes to show the deficit lies with you, regardless of how much you try to dress it up and give it over to someone else to bear. For the record, I do not think you're a liar. But I do think that you heard the term during that Integral Naked interview and then forgot you heard it there. When you later began to use the term, you thought you had originated it. There's no shame in that, max314. It's the kind of thing that happens to many people, myself included. But rather than even consider that possibility, you instead cast aspersions on a well-known figure, a figure who has access to, and the ear of at least one of the Wachowski Brothers, if not both. Ego, much?

Don't take it the wrong way, I'm not trying to shift any blame. I even said that you could think me a liar, and I would totally understand (which I think would put the "ego" theory to rest, right?). I was just really taken aback by the way I was put on the spot like that. In hindsight, I suppose it's not all that surprising, but I do feel as though our past disagreements on various topics concerning The Matrix - and they really are petty disagreements that shouldn't be taken personally since they're all based on the best intentions - may be hindering our friendship away from those topics. It really doesn't matter whether Neo's accessing kundalini energy or if he's a cyborg. Who gives a rat's left testicle apart from us lot?

Also, after failing to find it on forums, it did occur to me that there was I chance I could have confused Wilber's own use of that term with my own. But I'm still sure I remember using it first, and I couldn't change my position on that and be comfortable with it until I saw concrete evidence to that prove otherwise.

Also, revisiting the ego point: I doubt there is anyone on this forum who functions without a sense of self or a sense of ego. It's why we get upset or angry or refuse to lay down our arguments to the other person. But I personally just view guys like Ken and the Brothers as just normal people who I happen to find interesting. Nothing more. Whatever the whole "complex literature" thing was about, there really wasn't a whole lot of ego attached to it. It really was an honest comment.

So, can we just put this behind us and be friends? That matters more to me, anyway.

PS: "Bucko"?

Quote:

I'm not trying to shift any blame

Oh no?

But you follow that statement later with this:

Quote:

but I do feel as though our past disagreements on various topics concerning The Matrix - and they really are petty disagreements that shouldn't be taken personally since they're all based on the best intentions - may be hindering our friendship away from those topics

thus putting the onus back on me and trying to make it seem that I went after your comment because of vengence.

Here's the thing, max314. I saw you make what I considered to be an outrageous comment and then saw you react negatively to the first person who dared to question you about it.

I then saw how you reacted to me when I also questioned it and further provided details about trying to verify your claim. You can try to ennoble yourself and your motives all you like, but the fact remains that when you were faced with having to defend a statement of yours, a quantifiable statement that has a definitive yes or no answer associated with it, a statement from which you couldn't wriggle out of using circular arguments or witty repartee, you wanted to flee.

Here's another newsflash for you: our "disagreements" on the MWAM thread were not the reason for my questioning and investigating your claim here. I had stated in there what I had wanted to do was to give you a taste of your own medicine, though admittedly it was diluted compared to your own efforts, as you're much more practiced. I didn't care whether or not you thought the kundalini theory had any merit. I've seen you around various boards long enough to be familiar with your intractability and demagogical issues.

Quote:

Also, after failing to find it on forums, it did occur to me that there was I chance I could have confused Wilber's own use of that term with my own. But I'm still sure I remember using it first...

In the face of evidence to the contrary, that's just sheer bull-headedness.

max314 wrote:

...I couldn't change my position on that and be comfortable with it until I saw concrete evidence to that prove otherwise.

There's that spaceship to Alpha Centuri again (see other thread).

In order to prove that you didn't say it first, we would have to find you not saying it before Wilber did say it? That's frickin' classic

So now what?

demifey wrote:

Quote: I'm not trying to shift any blame Oh no? But you follow that statement later with this: Quote: but I do feel as though our past disagreements on various topics concerning The Matrix - and they really are petty disagreements that shouldn't be taken personally since they're all based on the best intentions - may be hindering our friendship away from those topics thus putting the onus back on me and trying to make it seem that I went after your comment because of vengence. Here's the thing, max314. I saw you make what I considered to be an outrageous comment and then saw you react negatively to the first person who dared to question you about it. I then saw how you reacted to me when I also questioned it and further provided details about trying to verify your claim. You can try to ennoble yourself and your motives all you like, but the fact remains that when you were faced with having to defend a statement of yours, a quantifiable statement that has a definitive yes or no answer associated with it, a statement from which you couldn't wriggle out of using circular arguments or witty repartee, you wanted to flee. Here's another newsflash for you: our "disagreements" on the MWAM thread were not the reason for my questioning and investigating your claim here. I had stated in there what I had wanted to do was to give you a taste of your own medicine, though admittedly it was diluted compared to your own efforts, as you're much more practiced. I didn't care whether or not you thought the kundalini theory had any merit. I've seen you around various boards long enough to be familiar with your intractability and demagogical issues. Quote: Also, after failing to find it on forums, it did occur to me that there was I chance I could have confused Wilber's own use of that term with my own. But I'm still sure I remember using it first... In the face of evidence to the contrary, that's just sheer bull-headedness.

Dear Lord. Okay, I'm putting the brakes on this thing, right now. This is getting way too out of hand.

You can carry on making slanderous comments about me when all I've tried to do is to diffuse a petty situation. You can say I'm trying to "flee" because I'm too scared or too incapable to 'counter' these ridiculous, deliberately-provocative statements. You can do whatever the hell you want...but I refuse to be involved any further in this insiduous backbiting and meaningless squabble.

Do as you please.