»You and the Matrix...«

i think zion is real

But is it freedom?

i think it is freedom

What - to you - is the nature of freedom?

not beeing forced in to stuff

Zion is a city in hiding,... in a cold and dark world,... harboring thousands of people, each of them an individual with personal interests, possibly conflicting with yours...

How can Zion live up to your definition of freedom?

yes it can

How?

th3 p4th wrote:

There's no One. Only everyOne and anyOne! Stop waiting for others cause you just wasting time.

I hate to interupt, but I just wanted to add something to this point above. I agree that there is no "one".

When I was very young I remember thinking about my life and wondering how important I would be to the world. I began thinking about all the millions of people alive and dead and how indirectly each life, now living, since dead, and soon to come, impacted my life and existance. For that brief moment, I glimpsed every path and it all lead to me. And then, at that very moment, I realized I am simply one. One of the many, one of those who would help form paths for others and perhaps one day "the one" whoever or whatever that may be. But I realized that even "the one", whoever this great being would be...is as much a part of everyone and anyone, as the rest of us.

I have no conclusion to this other than a few loose ends that make for interesting theories...all of which i'm sure have been said a million times or more by true philosophers. But perhaps there is no "one". That it is the mass that creates this "one" entity. This ties in with the movies rather well also because each one of us is connected. Smith becomes us all.



I understand how you felt when you got all your answers from the Matrix. Most of us left feeling a bit enlightened...but the sad thing is, it was a direct answer given to the mass. Chances are if a matrix is real, this was a lie and this is a step in the wrong direction. Maybe instead of waking up, what we really need to do is sleep.

Just remember, these answers came from the matrix. The Matrix. (Title of the franchise...perhaps for more reasons than we guessed) I just caution you to not jump in head over heels. Who sends the messages in this form? Zion? No...this is more a format of the machines, sending mass messages giving people something to believe in. And belief is dangerous. Reality can likely never be 100% known, but belief is simply thoughts in your head and a feeling in your gut. It's no concrete and it's no able to be communicated or shown exactly as we see it. If this were a message from Zion (freedom) it would likely have been quieter. If they were reaching for so many people to wake up they likely gave themselves away by reaching the entire planet. The Machines are probably breathing down their throat this very minute...

...unless of course the entirety of humanity (which this movie tried for) is meant to be awakened...as one.

As Oracle said and it's a shame that the Ws haven't put it to the movies but to the game Enter the Matrix:

The path of the One.. is made by the many.

th3 p4th wrote:

As Oracle said and it's a shame that the Ws haven't put it to the movies but to the game Enter the Matrix: The path of the One.. is made by the many.

Exactly.
I just thought I would take the long way in saying that, in order to hopefully back it up a bit more.

tozy wrote:

Sarcasm,.... me? Nahh...!

tozy wrote:

For that reason, and because you seem ready to talk about it, I have asked you about your understanding of freedom. And since - from what you have said before - you take the Matrix rather literally, I have asked the Zion-question. No sarcasm intended...

I think that zion is real, obviously when you have something that is hyperreal (ie the matrix with its virtual world) then you must first start off with something real (the real world, and Zion.) While Zion is freedom you were right in your post above Zion is another prision (becasue of its location and structure) - But it is still a place of hope and freedom for many. but this time the zionites are able to fight for the freedom of one another becasue they are not being controlled any longer they have a choice.

i hope that is an alrigth answer for you tozy.

that cleyerd alot up 4 me thanks neo1

Tozy and I sometimes look at things from different perspective but we tend to see the SAME things.

To get back on the subject, I want Neo1 and Agame to list for us the ways in which Zion is freer than the Matrix and we will make a serious real world (and spiritual) point. I betcha.

Next time I post here, I might have to go into fate vs manipulation vs guidance and how any or all of these can interfere with freedom.

tozy wrote:

But is it freedom?

tozy wrote:

Zion is a city in hiding,... in a cold and dark world,... harboring thousands of people, each of them an individual with personal interests, possibly conflicting with yours... How can Zion live up to your definition of freedom?

tozy is right.

Zion is grotesque.

Look at that scene where the Nebuchadnezzar has just returned and Linc looks over a balcony saying "It's good to be home." Then the camera shows the view from the balcony. A HUGE atrium with bridges and pipes and smoke. IT IS GROTESQUE. It reminds me of my first trip to New York down in the subways as a kid. Multiple levels of trains, crowding, dirty. It was repulsive, but Linc says, "It's good to be home."

Zion shows how mankind cannot escape technology, inside or outside of the Matrix.

Pay attention to what Cypher said. Zion wasn't FREE. It was constantly at war to defend what little autonomy it had. Children in Zion would be raised with the fear of war against the machines all of their lives. Zion must have been hell but children raised in that psychological matrix would consider it NORMAL.

In a way The Matrix is about how human beings are going to have to integrate with technology in the future. Some options are still open but some people want to influence our direction to serve their purposes. We could standardize on Linux or we could all upgrade to Microsoft Vista. How do you decide? It is not a choice of to Matrix or not to Matrix, it is a choice of which of many matrices.

psikey

intell wrote:

Tozy and I sometimes look at things from different perspective but we tend to see the SAME things. To get back on the subject, I want Neo1 and Agame to list for us the ways in which Zion is freer than the Matrix and we will make a serious real world (and spiritual) point. I betcha. Next time I post here, I might have to go into fate vs manipulation vs guidance and how any or all of these can interfere with freedom.

give me a couple of days to really think about this some more and i will give you my answer, while my first answer was an obvious one i feel, that i can give a better one with time.

psikeyhackr wrote:

tozy wrote: But is it freedom? tozy wrote: Zion is a city in hiding,... in a cold and dark world,... harboring thousands of people, each of them an individual with personal interests, possibly conflicting with yours... How can Zion live up to your definition of freedom? tozy is right. Zion is grotesque. Look at that scene where the Nebuchadnezzar has just returned and Linc looks over a balcony saying "It's good to be home." Then the camera shows the view from the balcony. A HUGE atrium with bridges and pipes and smoke. IT IS GROTESQUE. It reminds me of my first trip to New York down in the subways as a kid. Multiple levels of trains, crowding, dirty. It was repulsive, but Linc says, "It's good to be home." Zion shows how mankind cannot escape technology, inside or outside of the Matrix. Pay attention to what Cypher said. Zion wasn't FREE. It was constantly at war to defend what little autonomy it had. Children in Zion would be raised with the fear of war against the machines all of their lives. Zion must have been hell but children raised in that psychological matrix would consider it NORMAL. In a way The Matrix is about how human beings are going to have to integrate with technology in the future. Some options are still open but some people want to influence our direction to serve their purposes. We could standardize on Linux or we could all upgrade to Microsoft Vista. How do you decide? It is not a choice of to Matrix or not to Matrix, it is a choice of which of many matrices. psikey

It's Link, not Linc!

I choose both. Ubuntu Linux (ubuntu.com...) & Windows Vista (microsoft.com...)

also give me a few day to think about it too

It's not derived from LINCOLN as in Abraham Lincoln who supposedly freed the slaves?

What application can be implemented in Vista but not Linux? Application, not specific application software?

How much does Vista cost compared to Linux? Are we supposed to buy Windows for the benefit of Macro$cam stockholders?

psik

psikeyhackr wrote:

It's not derived from LINCOLN as in Abraham Lincoln who supposedly freed the slaves? What application can be implemented in Vista but not Linux? Application, not specific application software? How much does Vista cost compared to Linux? Are we supposed to buy Windows for the benefit of Macro$cam stockholders? psik

Check the subtitles!

Gaming in Linux sucks.
How much does it cost? I don't know.. I never buy windows....
Ubuntu Linux rocks cause the delivery of the cd at a fine cardbox is absolutely free!
I ordered the newest version of Ubuntu & Kubuntu(+ KDE) yesterday!

Give it a try! (ubuntu.com...)

I am 100% serious about the global ECONOMIC wargame.

Computer games are unimportant. Macro$cam is serious about the money too. I used to do business with a company that Microsoft shut down because of piracy. They may not be able to go after individuals too easily besides shutting down their computers via the internet and I have seen that too.

psikey

psikeyhackr wrote:

They may not be able to go after individuals too easily besides shutting down their computers via the internet and I have seen that too.

What do you mean?

As you asked intell i will list the things that make zion freer to the matrix.

Zion:

it is free will - what does that mean it means that the zoinites have freedom of self determination action independent of external causes.

it means hope - that one day the war will truely end and that they can live a normal existance of life. and not have to live a lie in a computer generated dream world.

it's freedom - what does that mean it means a condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints.

but while some would say that zion is no better than the matrix for it symbolisms as a prision, and like psikey said the children are brought up through fear because of the war. if i had a choice i would choose zion, i would rather live my life each and every day in fear knowing that this day could be my last, that i could end up bitting the bullet from an agent or one of those squiddies. but the thing is that it is real it is not an illusion. Cypher found that he could live his life in the solis of the matrix, in an illusion why becasue he realised that a dream world didn't have all of the hardships, and truths that the real world did.

you asked me what zion mean to me, and i will tell you, it is the truth, it is a place were you can be who you want to be, say what you want to say, were everyone is equal, that is true freedom.

zion is every thing a red pill wants it to be

It is.

And maybe they don't care that they live in a crappy environment, because after all they got the matrix, so they dont have to put much effort into the walls or clothes or anything:

anything they want they can have it in the matrix or in a simulation.
wouldnt that be great?