»why does the Architect say that Trinity will die?«

tozy wrote:

Hm,... remember the Oracle's, as very unknowingly performed, "Do you see her die?" Only after Neo's reply does she says: "you've made a believer out of me", which she emphasizes in the end of Revolutions.

Yes you are right. You got me there
The Oracle even admits in M3 that Neo surprised her sometimes.

But that still doesn't rule out that her (partly subconsious) intuition told her to make sure that Neo and Trinity would form a tight pair.

The Oracle even states that she also has her own choices to make. And she decided to use her knowledge and insights to help out everybody. What I mean is that she has the power to control at least a bit of Neo's path: she chose the path of his birth as the One. And at the end of M3 she even 'helped' Neo with dying, which symbolizes her being the goddess of death and rebirth: she was responsible for the rising of the One and she was responsible for the fall of the One. With this I see 'the One' as both Neo and Smith.

The path of the One in between his 'birth' and 'death' was entirely up to himself. But yet the Oracle had a hunch and hope that he would do the right thing.

In the end it comes down to this:

each entity connected to the Matrix has his own choices to make. In general each choice is about this: doing the right thing (positive) or doing the wrong thing (negative).

The clash between Neo and Smith was the climax of choice-making. It was the final choice: if the One would choose the right thing, then all life will go on (positive). If the One would choose the wrong thing then negativism would have destroyed all life.

I think this might be about the chaos-order theory. The Matrix is so complex: there are so many variables and so many choices. Neo and Smith were the sums that would bring back order: a more stable system or nothing at all!

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

But that still doesn't rule out that her (partly subconsious) intuition told her to make sure that Neo and Trinity would form a tight pair.

But I believe this is not a choice made by her, or her doing, but solely her understanding of Neo and Trinity.

The Oracle did NOT tell Trinity that she would fall in love with Neo! She told her that she would fall in love with the One...resulting in: "And so you see, you can't be dead. You can't be, because I love you."

When Neo died, Trinity understood that he had to be the One and thus couldn't be dead, because she loved him.
So, the Oracle helped Trinity understand the relevance of their love at the right moment, but she didn't have any influence on Neo's and Trinity's feelings; rather, her prediction was based on those feelings.

I believe, her intuition didn't tell her to make sure that Neo and Trinity would form a tight pair. Rather it told her that these two would form a tight bond, which - guided towards understanding - had the potential to make peace.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

The Oracle even states that she also has her own choices to make. And she decided to use her knowledge and insights to help out everybody.

But her choices affect her own fate in the first place, like giving up her shell for Sati and surrendering to Smith.
With her choices she doesn't choose for Neo; her choices are a means to provide Neo with the necessary experiences.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

What I mean is that she has the power to control at least a bit of Neo's path: she chose the path of his birth as the One. And at the end of M3 she even 'helped' Neo with dying, which symbolizes her being the goddess of death and rebirth: she was responsible for the rising of the One and she was responsible for the fall of the One.

In ETM, the Oracle told Niobe: "The heart never speaks, but you must listen to it to know."
And to Neo, she stated twice: "know thyself".
I believe Neo was always the One ("You're here because you know something"), but he wasn't aware of it ("What you know you can't explain").
"You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up" and "It is this feeling that has brought you to me" indicate that Neo already had made the choice to be the One. Only, he didn't understand it at that time -> know thyself.

Intuition is a knowledge that is already there; it cannot be made or given, it can "only" be brought to our consciousness.
So, I believe the Oracle didn't choose Neo's path of his birth as the One, she only helped him become aware of who and what he was.
The choice was made by Neo, the Oracle helped him understand it.

The same goes for the end: The Oracle helped Neo become fully aware of his intuitive knowledge...

Oracle: I'm sorry, I don't have the answer to that question, but if there's an answer, there's only one place you're going to find it.
Neo: Where?
Oracle: You know where.

When Neo started for 01, he already knew that he was going to die...

Morpheus: I can only hope you know what you're doing.
Neo: Me, too. It was an honour, sir.

...but he didn't understand why, before he heard the Oracle talk to him through Smith.
Only then did Neo understand his true identity: not a seperate entitiy, but one with the One. In that respect I wouldn't call Neo's death his fall, but rather the climax of his rise, in which he transcended the play of death and rebirth.

I believe the Matrix trilogy does agree with the spiritual approach, that our true identity is of spirit nature, and that we have a subconscious, intuitive knowledge of this our true identity. To become aware of this intuitive knowledge and thus of our true nature is, I believe, what the Oracle stands for; as opposed to the architect, who represents the rational approach, which keeps us unaware of our true identity, and in the cycle of death and rebirth (as seen in the former Ones).
And the path towards our true identity is our karma, which is based on our choices -> we grow with the experiences we make through our choices.
The climax of choice-making, as indicated by the trilogy, is, when our conscious and our subconscious/intuitive choices become one.

I have nothing to add or counter-argue here.

Brilliantly stated!

Ok, I agree with mobile for the most part, the architect does base his predictions on calculations and thinks he knows what neo will do because of what other ones have done in the past, but i do not think that neo fell in love with Trinity because the oracle was "manipulating" him. The oracle made it very clear that he should "make up his own damn mind", just because neo went to her when he didnt know what to do didnt mean that he believed in evertything and did everything that she said. I strongly believe that neo was not a follower and he opposed the idea of anyone "manipulating" him. Trinity is a diffrent story, she might have let the oracle control her(she wasnt really too bright), but i really think neo did"make up his own damn mind"

i also agree with everything just said, those are great theories, Bravo!

matrixobsessed wrote:

Ok, I agree with mobile for the most part, the architect does base his predictions on calculations and thinks he knows what neo will do because of what other ones have done in the past, but i do not think that neo fell in love with Trinity because the oracle was "manipulating" him. The oracle made it very clear that he should "make up his own damn mind", just because neo went to her when he didnt know what to do didnt mean that he believed in evertything and did everything that she said. I strongly believe that neo was not a follower and he opposed the idea of anyone "manipulating" him. Trinity is a diffrent story, she might have let the oracle control her(she wasnt really too bright), but i really think neo did"make up his own damn mind"

Alright, allow me to point out a few things. First of all, the Oracle bases her "predictions" off of equations as well. If you do remember, they state that her original job was to study the human psychology. Therefore she can calculate the probability of a human doing something, and then predict whatever has the most chance of happening. So, when you think about it, the Oracle and Architect are not too different. The Oracle is different from the architect simply because she allows humans to make up their own minds with her input, as opposed to the Architect who is too arrogant to realize that humans are capable of being unpredictable. Trinity certainly wasen't too manipulated by the Oracle, because if she was then she probably would of been all over Neo in the beginning. Instead she took her time, and got to know him. Then at the end of the first movie she realized that the Oracle was right. Proving something right and being manipulated are very different things.

The reason why I saw control and manipulation with the Oracle is that I also tend to view the trilogy in a technical dimension.

But tozy's symbolical explanation convinced me.
The Architect is about control, the Oracle is about freedom and open mindness.

The view of the Oracle is about as popular as the MWAM theory but when you take notice of what really guided Neo (his dreams) then you have to come to grips with what is actually taking place here. And who really is making the path.

KeyMaker (dying): "...He'll know which door."