»why does the Architect say that Trinity will die?«

I was going to reply to this topic in another thread...

Why does the Architect say that Trinity will die only to find it was locked. Having made my post already, I desided to make another with my reply..


Because as he said this is the moment of truth (at last) wherein the fundamental flaw is ULTIMATLY EXPRESSED and the anomaly REVEALED as both - beginning and end

Oracle: you are looking at the world without time (eternally)

Architect: dictionary.reference.com... she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Oracle: Now you’ve got to understand it.

You didn't really give an answer but I think the reason he said is because it was going to happen. In Zion the Sentinals sent a bomb at Soren's crew and their ship exploded this set off a domino effect causing Trinity to enter the Matrix. Then the machines sent the Agents after her forcing Neo to make his choice. It was all part of their plan but I don't think the Architect expect Neo to chose Trinity, he thought he would chose Zion instead.

Merovingian: It's remarkable how the pattern of love follows the same pattern as insanity!
(One of his many great quotes)

Jermaine101 wrote:

It was all part of their plan

Yea right, I’ve heard that one before. It’s similar to the "magic bullet" theory in the JFK assassination.

The reason why I made no plain answer is because if it took Neo all the movie/journey to understand, how do you think I could do it in a simple post? But they are the clues (some of them). The "process" of - understanding - will alter your consciousness.

well incase u were looking for an answer the architecht wus right. trinity wus going to die....and she did. but he did NOT say wut would happen after. in reference to neo ressurecting her back to life.

Of course, and this is part of the process of understanding…

Trinity: It's all right. It's time. I've done all that I could do. Now you have to do the rest. You have to finish it. You have to save Zion.

Remember what the Oracle said… who decided it wasn’t time? ..you weren’t ready for it?

However the Architecture was right, Trinity did die as Neo did and there was nothing he could do about it.

Purpose?.. the reason why were here?

As you said, what hasn’t been understood is what will happen after her/his death, but has been demonstrated, in more ways than one.

And the link?

*hugs Trinity* I ain't saying goodbye. I'm saying good luck

But I guess you don’t believe in all this fate crap right? …your watching your waistline?

*rejects cookie*

What's all this cryptic stuff?

The Architect is just a rational dude who only looks at the equation and tries to solve it with the most rational meisure of control.

The Architect just observes that Neo experiences his profound attachment to his own species far more specific than the previous Ones.
This was probably caused by the manipulations of the Oracle.

"manipulations of the Oracle"

hi ya mobil. Sorry if I startled you. I know the Oracle "guides" and has mass involvement, but really, manipulation? You go too far as others, who have no other explanation.

Inevitability wrote:

I was going to reply to this topic in another thread... Why does the Architect say that Trinity will die only to find it was locked. Having made my post already, I desided to make another with my reply.. Because as he said this is the moment of truth (at last) wherein the fundamental flaw is ULTIMATLY EXPRESSED and the anomaly REVEALED as both - beginning and end Oracle: you are looking at the world without time (eternally) Architect: dictionary.reference.com... she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own. Oracle: Now you’ve got to understand it.

The Architect says that because she will die, and she did, twice.

So, Neo brought her back at the end of Reloaded. The Architect felt that Neo would not be able to defeat the machines in the real world and that humanity would be exterminated anyway, which meant that Trinity would die.

Ofcourse, she did die, but in another way.

Indeed!

The Architect was just talking about that very moment in the Matrix. Neo could do nothing to stop her and this was the truth, because even his flying like a hurricane didn't stop Trinity from dying.

The Architect just states what he observes and expects based upon his detailed calculations.
He finds it interesting to see Neo's reaction, because he has never seen it with the previous Ones and he was bedazzeled by the true irrationality of the human mind.

As for Inevtiability:

The Oracle truly manipulates. Why else was it needed to tell Trinity that she will fall in love with the One? That is truly messing with the psyche and manipulating a path.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Indeed! The Architect was just talking about that very moment in the Matrix. Neo could do nothing to stop her and this was the truth, because even his flying like a hurricane didn't stop Trinity from dying. The Architect just states what he observes and expects based upon his detailed calculations. He finds it interesting to see Neo's reaction, because he has never seen it with the previous Ones and he was bedazzeled by the true irrationality of the human mind. As for Inevtiability: The Oracle truly manipulates. Why else was it needed to tell Trinity that she will fall in love with the One? That is truly messing with the psyche and manipulating a path.

Exactly.

Totally agree with you.

That moment is described as the moment, not a moment. Pay attention.

As for Trinity/love etc I thought we’d been through all that before, in the past.

I agree the Oracle messes with your mind etc, but only for the purpose of enlightening the path. It’s not her path but the path. How could she be manipulating something she doesn’t originate and have control over?

Manipulation is about control. Guidance is about enlightenment, so you find the path foryorself.

I believe you may have manipulated the Oracle to fit your own understanding of her, rather than observed what is actually said about her (and demonstrated).

That emoticons you use show disrespect for other people's opinions. So unless you are one of the Wachowski brothers, I suggest you should tone done a bit.

The Oracle also guides yes. But she also manipulates to get what she thinks is best for the future.

"You don't know weither I am here to help you or not"

She is not their to help him or Zion; she is there to help everything and everybody.

"I am interested in one thing Neo and that thing is the future. But the only way to get there is together"

She is interested in a dualistic continuation of the humans and the machines and I believe that she will do anything that might help.
She is driven by female intuition and this intuition is probably telling her that a specific love might help out to change the actions of the One.

The Oracle seems a little bit unsure at the park
"do you see her die?" she asks sincerely. And after Neo's reply, she seems to be filled with hope: "you made a believer out of me"

At that moment she realizes that Neo's specific love for Trinity is going to make a change. But the Oracle does not yet know the outcome of that change. She just believes that there is a chance and she is willing to take it.

And at the Architect there is no special moment. He calls it the moment of truth where the anomaly is revealed (Neo as the ultimate 'bug' is exposed) as both beginning and end (end of the sixth cycle and the beginning of the seventh cycle). Why would the Architect even bother to explain the process of selecting the new people if he already knows what is going to happen? And why is he so convinced that Zion is going down for the sixth time?
This just proofs that he has only one view and that is the rational one. He is a neccesary 'obstacle' in Neo's path, but he doesn't understand it the way the Oracle does.

Sorry mobil. I guess I’m a bit tired of seeing this mundane way of understanding. But I don’t truly mean disrespect. If only we could really show emotions eh? A little more "jousting" between one another, but not to hurt.

Tuffle a bit, let out what we realy feel

To quote the Terminator:

"Humans inevitably die"

I don't think that the Oracle was a manipulator either.
There is no evidence for that, she never forces anything onto anyone at any time.
"She is a guide, she can help you to find the path"

Who's path?
Not the Oracles path, Neo's path.

"The path of the One is made by the many" - The Oracle.

This whole thing is about Neo's path, and how he walks it, guided, not manipulated, by everyone else.

If the Oracle was guiding Neo and not manipulating him she would have told him about the destruction of Zion, the previous One's and the Architect in M1 instead of waiting. She said he wasn't ready for but he would have been more prepared if he had known. I'm not going to rag on her too much because Neo did end the war no matter how short it was. So you can't complain too much.

She was telling him the truth, he really wasn't ready.

If she'd told him about the Architect and the previous Zion's, would he have gone to get the keymaker? Would he have followed any of her advice at all. Neo wasn't ready to accept that things were more out of his control than he realised, just like he wasn't ready to see Smith at the start of M2 and encountered 3 Agents instead.

Nobody said the path would be easy

I guess it depends from how you understand the word "manipulating".
According to dictionary.com manipulating means: "To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously".

This is not necessarily negative and I believe it is what the Oracle does in M1, when she has to do with a Neo who doesn't "believe in any of this fate crap"

By the means of sacrifice...

Oracle: You're going to have to make a choice. In the one hand you'll have Morpheus' life and in the other hand you'll have your own. One of you is going to die. Which one will be up to you
(...)
Neo: The Oracle (...) She told me that I would have to make a choice.
(...)
Trinity: Neo, Morpheus sacrificed himself so that he could get you out. There's no way that you're going back in.
Neo: Morpheus did what he did because he believed I am something I'm not.
(...)
Neo: Because I believe in something.
Trinity: What?
Neo: I believe I can bring him back....

....she manueveres Neo into dying, so that he can become the One.

This is different from Reloaded and Revolutions, when Neo approaches her as a guide, and is given cryptic hints with the message "you have to find out for yourself to understand".
In all three movies she leads Neo on a path where he has to find out and understand for himself.
But in Reloaded and Revolutions he is aware of it; whereas in M1 he is not. And that, in my opinion, is manipulating.

And we should not forget that she manipulates Smith in Revolutions.

I agree she influences more in M1 and by revolutions Neo catches up and goes ahead of her.

But consider things said in M1:

Oracle: Sorry kid. You've got the gift, but it - looks like - you're waiting for something.
Neo: What?
Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go. What's funny?
Neo: Morpheus. He...uh...he almost had me convinced.
Oracle: I know. Poor Morpheus. Without him we're lost.

Morpheus: She is a guide. She can help you to find the path.
Neo: She helped you?
Morpheus: Yes.
Neo: What did she tell you?
Morpheus: That I that I that I would find the One....

…You'll remember you don't believe in any of this FATE crap.

She alludes to much unknown and dependence upon other virtues. She plays her part, as others do theirs. That’s all.

And the greatest player?

mxoboards2.warnerbros.com...

It's all over M1. Trinity is looking at Neo in a special way because the Oracle told her that she would fall in love with the One. What does this have to do with guiding?

It is about the same thing as she would say to Neo:

"you will meet an old fart with a beard and you can just ignore him"

If she would have told this to Neo, she would have confused him: who should he trust? They are both from the machine-world. Instead the Oracle influenced Neo indirectly by letting him fall deeply in love. This way, his choice to ingore the Architect is a genuine choice and so the Oracle is succesfull.

But when we return to Trinity. What is the function of the Oracle telling her this? We know from the "Enter the Matrix" dialogues that Trinity and Ghost had a 'special' thing going on. Why would they incorperate this in the story-line? I think to make us clear that it was purely the Oracle's doing that Trinity and Neo fell in love.

The basics of love start within the mind, within the psyche. And the effect will be that the body is going to produce certain chemicals that will forthbring certain emotions. That's all that the Oracle was after.

I'll end by commenting on a quoute from the Oracle...

"...the only way to get there is together"

With this she could mean the merging of the humans and the machines (through the merge of Neo and Smith).

But she could also mean the buddist tradition that a man and a woman have to merge together before they can achieve enlightment.

You see, the Matrix trilogy is just like real philosophy and religions. There are so many angles to be found and we will never know the real truth. Or maybe there is no real truth; the Wachowski brothers just want us to make up our own damn minds

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

It's all over M1. Trinity is looking at Neo in a special way because the Oracle told her that she would fall in love with the One. What does this have to do with guiding?

We know that Trinity has been watching Neo for a long time.

Cypher: "You like watching him, don't you? You like watching him."

So,... does she watch him because of what the Oracle said? Or did the Oracle tell her that she would fall in love with the One, because she knew that Trinity had fallen for Neo?

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

The basics of love start within the mind, within the psyche. And the effect will be that the body is going to produce certain chemicals that will forthbring certain emotions. That's all that the Oracle was after.

This contradicts with what the Oracle herself says about love (and I agree with her about this):
"Being the one is just like being in love. No one can tell you your in love, you just know it. Through and through. Balls to bones."

Nope, I believe not even the Oracle has the power of creating love in people. But I believe that she can manipulate people within the realms of their potential.
I believe the Oracle was aware of Trinity's growing love for Neo, and by telling her that she would fall in love with the One, she prepared Trinity for the moment of Neo's death -> resurrection.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

What does this have to do with guiding? It is about the same thing as she would say to Neo: "you will meet an old fart with a beard and you can just ignore him"

Trinity, as well as Neo once he is the One, share with the Oracle the will to save mankind. And they rely on the Oracle to tell them how to get there.
They are aware,...not of the details of the path,... but of the path.

Whereas in M1, Neo, when he leaves the Oracle, he is not aware of his path.

That's the difference.
If you rely on someone to guide you,... whatever the path may be,....you are being guided.
If you are being guided without knowing it, you are being manipulated.

But I mean manipulated in a positive sense, because...
"You have already made the choice. Now you have to understand it"

What is this blasphemy about the Oracle being a manipulator?

Many say this when they have no other explanation for what is happening. Mundane as Inev put it.

I wrote about this earlier.

"the answer was stumbled upon by...an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche." - Arch. A lot of posters take this quote and run with it, raving about the Oracle being part of the system of control and manipulating everything but think about it for a minute. This action saved the lives of everyone who would refuse the program and gave them a PURPOSE! This is further supported:

"...while this answer functioned, it also created the otherwise contradictory anomaly, which if left unchecked could threaten the system itself."
The "man born inside, who 1. could remake the matrix as he saw fit. It is he who 2. freed the first of us, 3. taught us the truth."
"As long as the matrix exists, the human race could never be free."

Now I pose the same question I posed a little while back. Now did the Oracle become part of the system of control or did she become part of what brings the control to an end?

More control? No. Revolution!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
She helped lead Neo back to the Arch to go through the routine of re-inserting the prime program like Neo's predecessors, etc.... - SPINAK (once said)

She did? I don't think so.

"What did you see when you went through the door?"
"I see Trinity and something happens. Something bad."
"Did you see her die?"
"No"
"You have the sight, Neo. You are looking at the world without time."
"Then why can't I see what happens to her?"
"We can never see past the choices we don't understand."
"Are you saying that I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?"
"No. You've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it."

The door the Oracle knows Neo, even by his own admission at this point, goes through is the one that leads to Trinity ("and the destruction of your species").

This is why she can tell him, "you've already made the choice."

This is why she can now tell him "because you're THE ONE." Something she never told him before, even letting him believe otherwise for a time.

This is PERHAPS why she now tells him how to even get to this point - going to the Merovingian, getting the KeyMaker, and being at "this place and this exact time." *hands him a piece of paper.

This is why she could later tell him in response to "why didn't you tell me about the Architect and the ones before me?", "It was not time for you to know."

Would that knowledge had any positive impact on his decision, anyway?

Cookies, anyone?

Message was edited by: n-tell aka intell

My brethren and I come long way to meet you here at this site.
We hold hidden knowledge, nay, wisdom of the Matrix and its applications to human life and the life beyond.
We denounce all attempts to divorce the Matrix mythology of religion...indeed blasphemy, intell, when those who know nothing of Oracle's wisdom become convinced that the Oracle herself is part of a system of "control"...
She is indeed a revolutionary, else why would she give Neo so much advice regarding the plot to destroy zion. Indeed! Yea verily, verily, I say unto thee, listen to the Oracle....

LOL! Keith, you crack me up

Ok, manipulation might be indeed a wrongfull word in the situation.

Let me put it differently...

She offers Neo a path that she prefers, but with her preference she takes care of all the parties involved for a more fruitfull future.

But come on...The thing with the would-you-have-broken-the-vase if-I-wouldn't-have-said-anything just proves us that she has the power to 'play games' with the psyche.

In the many paths that the One (and his helpfull 'many') could have taken this cycle, the Oracle picked the one path with the greatest opportunity. She saw that there was a great love possible between Neo and Trinity and so she played her part and helped out a bit with the knowhow that she has.

Choice is an illusion created for those without power (Neo, Smith and the bunch) by those with power (the Oracle and the Architect).
I see the Oracle and the Architect as a yin-yang-pair; they strife the same goal, only with opposite methods and desires. The advantage of the Oracle is that she has and allows (irrational) intuition to mingle in. Concering humanity she understands the "why" of choices and that's what makes her more powerfull in 'controlling' the humans.

So for Neo this might feel like if he is choosing this all himself. He is actually choosing, but his choices were made pre-determined by the Oracle, because she understood the path she offered Neo and Trinity in advance.

So it was all crystal clear to the Oracle, but only up untill Neo left the Architect and saved Trinity. From that point on there were so many factors and so many happenings that were yet unexplored that even the Oracle didn't see the outcome anymore, but she kept believing in a good outcome.

Yet what did she do? She still kept guiding people within the knowledge and insights that she did have.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

Concering humanity she understands the "why" of choices and that's what makes her more powerfull in 'controlling' the humans. So for Neo this might feel like if he is choosing this all himself. He is actually choosing, but his choices were made pre-determined by the Oracle, because she understood the path she offered Neo and Trinity in advance.

Hm,... remember the Oracle's, as very unknowingly performed, "Do you see her die?" Only after Neo's reply does she says: "you've made a believer out of me", which she emphasizes in the end of Revolutions.

The Oracle is an intuitive program. Intuition is an unconscious form of knowledge, hidden from our rational and analytical thought processes in our subconscious. That's what the potentials stand for, and it is for a reason they can be found in the Oracle's apartment.
It is the Oracle's job to make this unconscious knowledge of the potentials conscious knowledge by means of experience.

Choice is an illusion, as long as you don't understand the why and therefore are powerless -> know thyself!

I don't think it's all crystal clear to the Oracle. She knows where Neo is supposed to be heading, and it is her job to provide him with the experiences to get there - he has to experience to understand. But in the end it's up to Neo what he makes of these experiences, and all the Oracle can do is believe in him.