»Zion can't be real, reality is too random...«

I haven't read many of the other posts, but they seem to be digging to find the answer whether or not zion and the "real world" is just another matrix. The answer is it has to be, and you don't really have to dig far to see it.

If the computers didn't know exactly what was happening in the "real world", where Zion is, then the entire story could not have happened. What if Neo choked on his food? The entire storylines crashes when you realise that there is no way you can predict the "future" with the added element of randomness of Zion being "real".

Look, with a very specific example, I'll make it crystal clear:
*The whole scene in Reloaded with the Architect hinges on Trinity almost dying.
*For Trinity to almost die, she must enter the Matrix.
*For Trinity to enter the Matrix, the team sent to disable the backup power must be killed.

Now are you telling me that by some BLIND STROKE OF LUCK the machines, WHO DON'T CONTROL THE ZION WORLD, remember, just KNEW that the bridge the guy walks across is faulty and is MIRACULOUSLY going to break, kill the two operators, and cause the above sequence of events. Sorry, impossible. No way the machines could have known that was going to happen (unless they control the Zion world). The same exact thing can be said of the scene in the first movie with Cypher and the gun. Are you trying to tell me that the machines, WHO HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE "REAL WORLD", just KNEW that Cypher wouldn't kill Tank all the way and would end up being killed himself. BULLLLLshit. They control the "real world" and it's ridiciously obvious. Becides, why in the HELL would they give up some control when they can simulate the EXACT SAME scenario and still get the power from the human. Makes no sense. Now, I would like someone to try and refute my statements, because I think they conclusively prove that Zion isn't real.

It's strange that this is never brought up in the movies, no one wonders if zion could be another matrix. I would think that once you have awoken from the matrix you would be suspicious of the new world you are in, you would ask yourself could this also be an illusion. And besides mwam is the first thing everyone thought of after m2 and I doubt that the w's would throw such an easy answer in our faces. No one ever says in the movies could this be another illusion.

mrA: That was a great movie wasn't it.

mrB: Yeah but I didn't get who the killer was.

mrA: What, are you stupid it was that guy that no one ever talked about and we never saw, when I think about it he was never in the movie.

mrB: Ok then I understand thanks.

I don't really care about evidence this evidence that, none of us now the w's and we don't know what they think and so we have no evidence at all. Watch the movies and if you wan't to think that zion is a matrix think that and if you think that zion is real then you stick to that it won't really change your life if zion turns out to be real or a program. They are amazing movies just watch them and stop arguing.

I'm just trying to say if Zion isn't another Matrix the entire story doesn't make a bit of sense (and it doesn't really matter whether or not the W. bros wanted it that way or not, they made it inevitable), because if Zion was the "real world", that means Neo could have just fallen down a flight of stairs and died, and what would have machines done with all there plans then, huh?

sniper wrote:

I haven't read many of the other posts, but they seem to be digging to find the answer whether or not zion and the "real world" is just another matrix. The answer is it has to be, and you don't really have to dig far to see it. If the computers didn't know exactly what was happening in the "real world", where Zion is, then the entire story could not have happened. What if Neo choked on his food? The entire storylines crashes when you realise that there is no way you can predict the "future" with the added element of randomness of Zion being "real". Look, with a very specific example, I'll make it crystal clear: *The whole scene in Reloaded with the Architect hinges on Trinity almost dying. *For Trinity to almost die, she must enter the Matrix. *For Trinity to enter the Matrix, the team sent to disable the backup power must be killed. Now are you telling me that by some BLIND STROKE OF LUCK the machines, WHO DON'T CONTROL THE ZION WORLD, remember, just KNEW that the bridge the guy walks across is faulty and is MIRACULOUSLY going to break, kill the two operators, and cause the above sequence of events. Sorry, impossible. No way the machines could have known that was going to happen (unless they control the Zion world). The same exact thing can be said of the scene in the first movie with Cypher and the gun. Are you trying to tell me that the machines, WHO HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE "REAL WORLD", just KNEW that Cypher wouldn't kill Tank all the way and would end up being killed himself. BULLLLLshit. They control the "real world" and it's ridiciously obvious. Becides, why in the HELL would they give up some control when they can simulate the EXACT SAME scenario and still get the power from the human. Makes no sense. Now, I would like someone to try and refute my statements, because I think they conclusively prove that Zion isn't real.

This theory creates a nexus. AT some point you'd reach a real world, and it would have the randomness in it. While it's a nice theory, and I commend you for the thought that went into it, it's wrong.

Yeah I know what you are saying Sniper but I still think that the real world is actually real and even if it is another program Neo could have died before meeting the architect and all that. This is what's so great about the movies, like all great works of art it can be seen from so many different points of view and everyone sees the movies differently. It's so great I love it.

Darius wrote:

This theory creates a nexus. AT some point you'd reach a real world, and it would have the randomness in it. While it's a nice theory, and I commend you for the thought that went into it, it's wrong.

You didn't address any of my points. How did the machines know that the bridge was going to break? Just answer me that please. If they don't control the Zion world, and hence didn't know, then explain to me what would have happened at the Architect since Trinity wouldn't have been in the Matrix and the "choice" of the two doors would be meaningless. The truth is the machines HAD to known the bridge was going to break, otherwise that entire sequence of events is gone, and the only way for them to know that is if they control the Zion world.

Ok maybe I am an idiot or something but if the machines controled the real world that you say is a program also, then how did they, the machines, set the bridge up to collapse?. Don't laugh please.

And even if Neo was in another program he still could have died.

yipman wrote:

Ok maybe I am an idiot or something but if the machines controled the real world that you say is a program also, then how did they, the machines, set the bridge up to collapse?. Don't laugh please.

I didn't say they set it up, I just said they knew about it. The Architect is like the "god" of the Matrix, he can see everything going on and therefore predict and plan how to deal with it. The Architect says something to the effect "all of this has led you inevitably to me". The only way the Architect could make sure Neo gets to that point is to know what's happening in the Zion world. If the Architect can't see what's happening in the Zion world then theres no way for any of his plans to "inevitably" lead anywhere, because, like I said, if the Zion world isn't under his "all seeing eye" (so to speak) something could easily happen that he didn't plan for.

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And even if Neo was in another program he still could have died.

Yes, but if he was in another program, which the Architect controls, the Architect could just see to it that Neo doesn't slip on any bananas, so to speak.

Very well thought out, and I have to agree, it makes perfect sence with one or two tweaks....

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The Architect is like the "god" of the Matrix, he can see everything going on and therefore predict and plan how to deal with it.

I think the Architect is a "middle manager" just another program rather than a god, After all Neo meets the god of the Machines (or a personification thereof represented by the machine face, in...shall we call it "Zion Matrix") at the climax of Revolutions, Maybe it is this being that controls the multiverse of realities.

It is foolish to belive that a computer program that powerful would not have "backup worlds", do you not keep your documents on a CD as well as a Hard Drive?

In all honesty just think the W. Bros didn't think the entire thing completely through. Although I dislike movies that don't make logical sense, you can see why they might have overlooked certain aspects to make the story more interesting (or even have a story at all). For example, (and I'm sure this has been gone over a million times in these forums, but I'm new) the basis for the WHOLE story is flawed, as it would be impossible for computers to use humans as a power source because for a human to create heat it needs (dun dun DUN) a power source, namely food and water. The story never goes into how the machines feed the people connected to the Matrix; the only thing it really mentions is "liquefying the dead and to be fed to the living". It would be impossible for that to feed every human, as the number of people who have to die to feed 6 billion would be astronomical. So the machines grow food for the humans? Since the sun is blocked out they would have to use grow lamps for the food, which obviously uses electricity, and would lose power. On top of that, we all know you cannot get out more energy from a reaction than you put in, and the machines would get more energy from burning the food than feed to the (energy inefficient) humans. So in summary, the machines use electricity to power grow lamps to grow food to feed humans to create heat to create electricity. EVERY single one of those steps you lose significant amounts of energy. But then it gets even more absurd, in the first movie when he's explaining this whole process, Morpheus says "combined with a form of fusion". LOL. First time I heard that I laughed out loud. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about fusion knows that you need extremely high (million's of degrees) temperatures and ultra high densities. Saying the human body could have anything AT ALL to do with fusion is like saying dog poop can create an atomic bomb, it makes no sense at all. So since we've firmly ruled out any possibility, do to the law of conservation of energy, of net energy production from humans, we have no story. So what do we do? We create yet ANOTHER matrix that creates ANOTHER shell, and find out the reason for all of this was to divert our attention from the fact that WE are all in the Matrix and the movies were designed to make such a thought so absurd that it is easily dismissed. It can't be ruled out...

I don't have to address your points. Don't you get it? If I escape from the matrix of Zion, where am I? I'd have to de in another matrix, other wise I could spill coffee on the motherboard and everyone dies. SO, I get out of that, is that world a matrix? It has to be according to you.

Darius wrote:

I don't have to address your points. Don't you get it?

I understand my concept perfectly, it seems that you don't though.

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If I escape from the matrix of Zion, where am I? I'd have to de in another matrix, other wise I could spill coffee on the motherboard and everyone dies. SO, I get out of that, is that world a matrix? It has to be according to you.

You misunderstood everything I said. The whole concept of "escaping" anywhere is a LIE. All the humans are put into pods in the ACTUAL real world, and plugged into the "Matrix" world, ok? Some of the people don't "accept the programming", like the Architect says; they then are moved from the "Matrix" world and into the "Zion" world, which is just another program but the humans are made to think it's the real world. Understand now? There not physically going anywhere, there mind is just being transferred between virtual worlds, because some people don't accept the "Matrix" world. Understand now?

sniper wrote:

Darius wrote: I don't have to address your points. Don't you get it? I understand my concept perfectly, it seems that you don't though. Quote: If I escape from the matrix of Zion, where am I? I'd have to de in another matrix, other wise I could spill coffee on the motherboard and everyone dies. SO, I get out of that, is that world a matrix? It has to be according to you. You misunderstood everything I said. The whole concept of "escaping" anywhere is a LIE. All the humans are put into pods in the ACTUAL real world, and plugged into the "Matrix" world, ok? Some of the people don't "accept the programming", like the Architect says; they then are moved from the "Matrix" world and into the "Zion" world, which is just another program but the humans are made to think it's the real world. Understand now? There not physically going anywhere, there mind is just being transferred between virtual worlds, because some people don't accept the "Matrix" world. Understand now?

Did you fall off a roller coaster or something? I got it from the start. THERE HAS TO BE A REAL WORLD SOMEWHERE! If it's not Zion, it's somewhere else. That world will have the randomness factor.

Darius wrote:

Did you fall off a roller coaster or something?

I'm the one explaining exactly what I mean, your the one saying I'm wrong by pointing out things I've already addressed before.

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I got it from the start. THERE HAS TO BE A REAL WORLD SOMEWHERE!

Lol those two sentences contradict each other, if you had got it from the start you wouldn't be saying the second sentence, as I've already addressed that.

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If it's not Zion, it's somewhere else. That world will have the randomness factor.

*sigh* I wonder if you actually read what I wrote. The REAL WORLD (which they never show) is where EVERY human's body is, whether they are in the "Matrix" world or in the "Zion" world. The machines in the REAL WORLD created two matrix's, the "Matrix" world and the "Zion" world, both of which they have complete control over. When a human is born they are put in to the "Matrix" world to start with. If they reject the programming they are transferred to the "Zion" world. That's it. It's simple. The humans experience no randomness because, obviously, the machines control both worlds. The humans could only experience randomness if they could escape to the REAL WORLD, which they can't. Please tell me you understand now because I'm not explaining it again.

I agree with what some people are saying, that nothing we see really exists, et cetra... But I belive that one of the next two things are the reality of it all.

1. Neo never woke up at the begining of the movie. Remember Morpheous' statement about dreams?
"Have you ever had a dream that was so real, that you were sure...?" Maybe that was said in a dream Neo was having, and so was the begining with Trinity. He never woke up, or heard the knock on his door because of his headphones. He just slept. Doesn't everything seem so dreamlike? Every guy (and some girls) dreams about things like flying, fighting, car chases, and sex. Let's see, what are The Matrix movies about...hmmm. Oh yeah, flying, fighting, car chases, and sex. What if "Knock Knock Neo..." was never really typed?

2. Smith is the real human, sent in to the simulation make sure that the human race didn't make the same mistake that ended in 'The Desert of the Real' twice. The simulation was made exactly as the previous reality was, and Smith was sent in to see what went wrong. Remember the virius speech? The problem Smith encountered was Neo and the rest of the people who found reality. The machines are not using humans for battery, they are keeping them alive until Earth can be rebuilt. In the end, Smith makes everyone look like himself so that they will have no memory of the epic end battle, and when he finishes off Neo and the gang, everyone will return to normal. Only problem was that Neo was a virius. He 'killed' the original simulated Smith (Matrix 1), so whomever is behind everything sent him back, better than before, and with a mission to end it all (Matrix 2 & 3). But not even then could the virius be stopped, and the simulated reality will in turn end up as 'The Desert of the Real', all due to the inability to delete a virius.

I know these are pretty weak and stupid arguements (mainly #2), but they are my ideas thus far. Many, many more to come.

sniper wrote:

Darius wrote: Did you fall off a roller coaster or something? I'm the one explaining exactly what I mean, your the one saying I'm wrong by pointing out things I've already addressed before. Quote: I got it from the start. THERE HAS TO BE A REAL WORLD SOMEWHERE! Lol those two sentences contradict each other, if you had got it from the start you wouldn't be saying the second sentence, as I've already addressed that. Quote: If it's not Zion, it's somewhere else. That world will have the randomness factor. *sigh* I wonder if you actually read what I wrote. The REAL WORLD (which they never show) is where EVERY human's body is, whether they are in the "Matrix" world or in the "Zion" world. The machines in the REAL WORLD created two matrix's, the "Matrix" world and the "Zion" world, both of which they have complete control over. When a human is born they are put in to the "Matrix" world to start with. If they reject the programming they are transferred to the "Zion" world. That's it. It's simple. The humans experience no randomness because, obviously, the machines control both worlds. The humans could only experience randomness if they could escape to the REAL WORLD, which they can't. Please tell me you understand now because I'm not explaining it again.

So what you're saying is, the real world is perfect nothing ever goes wrong and all is one witht he universe? That proves it's wrong.

Darius wrote:

So what you're saying is, the real world is perfect nothing ever goes wrong and all is one witht he universe? That proves it's wrong.

No it only proves you STILL don't understand it and like I said I'm not explaining it again. Read it over a couple times it might come to you.

sniper wrote:

REAL WORLD

See, you said it yourselff. There IS a real world. That world will be prone to having something go wrong.

Darius wrote:

sniper wrote: REAL WORLD See, you said it yourselff. There IS a real world. That world will be prone to having something go wrong.

Wow, you really go to some lengths to find a problem where none exists. Yes, there is a real world. Yes, things can go wrong in it. SO WHAT. The humans ONLY interact with virtual worlds. If what your trying to ask is if something can go wrong with the computers in the real world that run the virtual world because they experience the randomness of the real world, then no. Theres nothing random about what's appearing on your computer screen right now, there are Error Correcting Codes running right now so that what appears on the screen is exactly what should. The machines would obviously have ECC and backup systems; we have them now and the computers in The Matrix are way more advanced. There's nothing random about a computer in the real world, because it's purely obeying the laws of physics; like the Architect said "a harmony of mathematical precision". You throw a human in the real world and stuff can happen that's unexpected; the only way to completely control them is to throw them in the cage of "mathematical precision".

Well I still stick to the real world being really really real. This story is in the w's mind and so there is no evidence, you can't say this is so and so, it's only speculation. You can say zion MIGHT be an illusion, you can't say that it IS an illusion, you can say what you think or believe but that is not evidence. Nothing in the movies is evidence of zion being a matrix, the answer is in the creators heads. You don't know that they didn't decide to let Neo have powers in the real world. It's a movie for gods sake, the best movie ever, and it is extremely possible that zion is really real and that is what I choose to believe. I rather think that than believing that the w's just went: oh let's throw in a scene in reloaded where neo stops sentinels in the real world, and that way everyone will know right then and there that zion is actually a matrix too. Yeah you are right lets slap the easiest answer to that in their faces and lets not have anyone in the movies say absolutely anything of the possibility of another matrix and that will be it. Yeah great. Don't you see, it's too straight forward and that doesen't seem like them w's. People always complain that there are no definitive answers in the trilogy but they just threw that answer at us like that, well no I don't think so anyway. Stop arguing and enjoy the movies and make up your own damn minds. Now I have some real business to do so I will say adieu and goodbye. And now someone will say this isn't over, then I say, oh yes it is, this belief is mine and I see no reason why I should let it go, no reason at all. I'm out peace, and remember , The Matrix has you.

I think that Zion was the 'real world' ALTHOUGH it was pretty much a machine controlled 'experiment'. They allowed it to exist, to flourish, for runners to enjoy a limited 'success' at freeing minds - all with the purpose of grooming the next anomaly, the "one" that would hopefully make the system 100% acceptable and end the rebellion once and for all.

sniper wrote:

Darius wrote: sniper wrote: REAL WORLD See, you said it yourselff. There IS a real world. That world will be prone to having something go wrong. Wow, you really go to some lengths to find a problem where none exists. Yes, there is a real world. Yes, things can go wrong in it. SO WHAT. The humans ONLY interact with virtual worlds. If what your trying to ask is if something can go wrong with the computers in the real world that run the virtual world because they experience the randomness of the real world, then no. Theres nothing random about what's appearing on your computer screen right now, there are Error Correcting Codes running right now so that what appears on the screen is exactly what should. The machines would obviously have ECC and backup systems; we have them now and the computers in The Matrix are way more advanced. There's nothing random about a computer in the real world, because it's purely obeying the laws of physics; like the Architect said "a harmony of mathematical precision". You throw a human in the real world and stuff can happen that's unexpected; the only way to completely control them is to throw them in the cage of "mathematical precision".

Read Goliath on the matrix website, then tell me nothing can go wrong.

Closest to it is the Train Station, the Merovingian's illicit smuggling route between the Machine City and the 'Matrix' simulation.

The 'Zion' simulation includes Zion, the tunnels, the surface, the clouds, the Sun and the ability to crash into The Source.

Well, no, the clouds and zion and tunnels and stuff is not a simulation. Atleast I don't think so but that's my opinion, I don't know, only the W's do and therefore noone can say it IS a simulation or it IS real, we can only say what we think. We should stop arguing about this and make up our own damn minds and stop trying to prove what can't be proven. Until the W's say zion isn't a simulation or that it is there is no point in arguing about it, believe what you want to believe.