»Was the Architect lying?«

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can it be possible that the Architect can be a program?

wait. that sounded stupid. let me refraze that. ok.
is it possible that the article jus sits there and is programmed to yak and yak when neo comes in- to guide him to choose the left door, perhaps.

TriNiGaiL QWEEN wrote:

wait. that sounded stupid. let me refraze that. ok. is it possible that the article jus sits there and is programmed to yak and yak

That much to the "refrazement"

Yes, that's possible.

oopsies

I happen to think that the Architect told the truth. I mean, why else would they need this 15 minute explanation near the end of the movie if they were just going to prove it wrong?

stinkz wrote:

I happen to think that the Architect told the truth. I mean, why else would they need this 15 minute explanation near the end of the movie if they were just going to prove it wrong?

He is just telling Neo the reality of his world. His world is the matrix, and what he knows of the outside world is told to him by a the AI who created the Architect. So Zions destruction may have been simulated 5 times, and the reason we see so many changes in the path of The One is that this time the anomaly is carried by a real human.

I happen to be an advocate of the Zion is real theory, however, the Architect knows more than just about the matrix. He was telling Neo about the matrix and how, even if it is destroyed, the machines are willing to accept a level of survival without humans. He obviously has at least some knowledge of the outside world. Besides, he is the closest thing to the "controller" of this world that we have seen. I think his statements count for something...

I don't know for sure if some thing the Architect said were true aor some were false, but I know for sure that the cataclismic thing that was supposed to happen if Neo went to the left door, I know FOR SURE it is FALSE, not because it is insane and not productive for the machines, but because of some details in the ANIMATRIX. In BEYOND, at the end of the episode, you can see the trace call, or whatever those numbers are, just like in the matrix 1 at the beginning and end of the movie....those numbers are the date of the time in that episode, those were if I'm not wrong....2-2-03, thus in year 2003 the matrix is still alive and going, and it is quite obvious that matrix 2 takes place before that( year 2000 aprox. if I'm not wrong).
PiukNeo.

the architect didn't lie about what had happened before (the 5 predecessors, the reason why the previous matrix didnt work, etc)...

BUT he didn't lie about the future either... For him, everything is predictable with mathematical equations, so he was sur that Neo would try to save Zion, after all, it is logical to save millions of people versus only one...

BUT the architect didnt take the "love" parameter in consideration, it was impossible for him to understand it... So if the architect had been able to calculate the "love" parameter he'd probably knew that Neo would save Trinity...

I think that in the architect perspective, everything he said was true, from what happened to what would happen... The only reason why it didn't go the way he said is because he can't predict something as unpredictable as human feelings, such as love...

(ok I have a headache now ) hehehhe

We have a winner! I think that's exactly right. Of course, it's easy to say now that we've seen Revolutions.

Then from what you just said it wouldn't be everything is true... It would be
"Some things were wrong because the Architect didn't know"

And every NEO surpassed the previous in every aspect. Basically until they have a hybrid...

Quote:

Then from what you just said it wouldn't be everything is true... It would be "Some things were wrong because the Architect didn't know"

They were true in *his* point of vue... For him, there was absolutely no other way that things could happen... Neo just HAD to save Zion.

Just point of enquiry here, but have any programs been shown to lie at all, in any of the films?

I'm not talking about opinions (both the Architect and the Merovingian have plenty of those) or ommissions, but in actually saying something that directly and obviously wasn't true?

If they don't, it fits in with the final scene in #3 between the Oracle and the Architect:

Quote:

{Architect starts walking away} Oracle: What about the others? Architect: What others? Oracle: The ones that want out. Architect: Obviously, they will be freed. Oracle: I have your word? Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

quoted from zionmainframe.net...

the architect didnt know anything cuz he couldnt see past any choices (as the oracle said) so what he said was a big huge lie, dont you think so?

Yeah the Merovingian lied to his own people:
Seraph: "You know why we are here."
Merovingian: "Come, now. What kind of question is this? Of course I know. It's my business to know."
while he didn't know anything
Also the machine god lied:
Deus Ex Machina: "We don't need you. We need nothing."
Neo: "If that's true, then I've made a mistake and you should kill me now."
Deus Ex Machina: "What do you want?"

knnknn wrote:

Seraph: "You know why we are here." Merovingian: "Come, now. What kind of question is this? Of course I know. It's my business to know." while he didn't know anything

Ah, but at that point, the Trainman (who was first attacked by Trinity & Co and later had met Neo at "Mobil Ave") is already with teh Merovingian, so it would be a good guess that he did know. What I find interesting about that scene is that once again, the Merovingian appears to behave honourably.

He offers the crew a deal and once again, the crew "cheat" him of any deal. And yet the Merovingian, once he has agreed to free Neo, does so. After all, what's to stop him from secretly asking the Trainman to dump all of them at "Mobil Ave" once they are out of the Club and he's safe?

So far as I can see, programs do what they say they will do, or at least attempt it.

knnknn wrote:

Also the machine god lied: Deus Ex Machina: "We don't need you. We need nothing." Neo: "If that's true, then I've made a mistake and you should kill me now." Deus Ex Machina: "What do you want?"

The lines "We don't need you. We need nothing." may in fact be true, but clearly the want us, because that would give them more energy to use.

My theory is much the same as emp's ( read near the top.) The Architect did not lie and will probably never meet Neo ever again, maybe because when Neo is revived he might not re-enter the Matrix or just never need to meet him again.

In order to lie, to decieve, one must make a statement with the knowledge that the statement is false. The actual truth or falsity of the statement is irrelevant, it is the knowledge of passing it as true when you know it isn't that makes something a lie. When a little child tells you his gift came from santa, he/she isn't lying b/c they believe it is true. Granted the information on which they make that claim has come from a lie, but the statement of the child themself is not. In a somewhat similar fashion, the Architect does fully believe that Neo's choice to take the left door, will result in the system crash, killing all of the people attached to the Matrix. He does believe that Trinity cannot be saved. He does belive that there is no way Zion can be saved unless it is destroyed and created again. His belief is based on the fact that 100% of the past has supported these claims. No other anomoly has chosen the left door, all have gone right.

Heres something odd though. Most of what he says does come true. Trinity does end up dying. Neo must and does return to the source. The architect and Neo do not ever meet again. Truthfully the function of the one is to return to the source, it may not have happened the way he believed it would, but Neo's purpose was originally to return to the source and pick 27 peeps for the new Zion.

In the end, my point is that there is a difference between lying and just plain being wrong. The architect never lied, he was only wrong.

sumesh wrote:

In order to lie, to decieve, one must make a statement with the knowledge that the statement is false. The actual truth or falsity of the statement is irrelevant... ...In the end, my point is that there is a difference between lying and just plain being wrong. The architect never lied, he was only wrong.

Bingo!

In short the definition of a lie is two words "deliberate untruth".

knnknn wrote:

Also the machine god lied: Deus Ex Machina: "We don't need you. We need nothing." Neo: "If that's true, then I've made a mistake and you should kill me now." Deus Ex Machina: "What do you want?"

This is not a lie, it is simply arrogance and ignorance.

The next line it comes out with suggests that while Neo way saying his bit, the machine checks the status of the matrix.

If we had had a wider angle, I imagine we would see it drop a huge robot brick as the extent of smiths "influence" is realised.

The architect claims that if Neo didn't return to the source all the humans in the matrix would all die. When Neo tells the oracle about this she says that the architect only says this because he can't see past any choice and doesn't understand choices.

The architect had no idea that Neo returning to the source within the matrix would not be the only way to save the humans in the matrix.

I voted for "Some things were wrong because the Architect didn't know". The Architect stated that the Matrix was designed based on the information the Oracle provided him. After the 3rd movie, her agenda became clear. She could have told him to design it as such without revealing her own goals or needing to lie, if that were possible.

The Architect only told Neo what he needed to hear. He needed Neo to "save the world" from Smith, so he offered him that "choice", that was nothing but an illusion.

i agree with oscargabrielp every time i read his opinions.
the "choice" was anyhting but a choice

it was 100% true, he is a machine and cant lie!