»The doors and choice. Was the Architect bluffing?«

Is it just me or do u think that in the end the Architect was bluffing and making neo choose the door on neo's right rather than left. but he was doing this in such a "cool" manner...also, last minute, before he opens the door, does the architect say the last thing about hope to make neo stop, think again and choose the other door?

This is unclear. He says two horrifying things

1) Trinity is going to die
2) Humanity is going to die

Maybe he thought: "Neo will choose the right door and I will have my satisfaction telling him, that Trinity is going to die."

WHat is difficult to understand? What i said or the subject of the matter?

Trinity wrote:

What is difficult to understand? What i said or the subject of the matter?

Your question is perfectly clear. It is unclear what the Architect wanted. I made a new poll. Please cast your vote.

To say that the Architect was "trying" to get Neo to choose a door greatly undermines the Architect's intelligence. Remember, if he's who he says he is, he is intelligent enough to create a virtual world, which is an achievement that is beyond human comprehension. To think that he leads Neo to him to offer Neo the choice to destoy the Matrix seems like a human's hopeful thinking. The machines (or I prefer AI) are extremely good at creating the illusion of choice, since that's what the Matrix is all about. I don't think they would present a choice to a human unless they can already predict the outcome with a minimal level of certainty. I say minimal, because they can never be absolutely sure, since that is the problem that the Architect has to deal with, but he has done a pretty good job so far. At some point in the trilogy, Neo will need to find out how to differentiate between a "fake" choice and a "real" choice, if he is to have a chance against the AI. I think that up to the point he rescues Trinity, he has been playing the AI's game all along. But I'm not sure if his bringing Trinity back to life is a "real" choice or not. It may be. When he stands his ground against the sentinels in the "real world" he may have made a "real" choice, and perhaps that's how he was able to gain power in the "real" world. And maybe, just MAYBE, that's why he went into a coma right afterwards because he has just transcended to the next level. Kinda like waking up from the Matrix. Basically, I think that what the Architect says is very true, that we cannot fully comprehend the machines/AI because we are human, but at the same time, we can guess because 1) humans made the machines in their likeness, and 2) the Wachowski bros are human. (or are they???)

i reckon that most of what he said was bullshit. there was some truth in it somewhere but most of it was lies.

if you look at it in a different way, u can see that after the visit to the architect, neo tells morpheus that everything the oracle said was lies. The oracle, i think, is an old program and is one of the old ones that face deletion (therefore protected by seraph). If there were anomalies, she has seen this happen 5 times before and this therefore makes her able to tell the future. Could this mean that the architect is totally against the oracle? Maybe he can read minds so well and tell their reactions that he is lying so well to Neo, and making him believe everything he said.....

well i'm not sure, i just keep getting more and more crazy ideas each day..........................

For some reason, I don't think Neo can be lied to. Just led astray. The Architect could just be MASSIVELY arrogant. But as the creator of such a detailed, manipulative construct, I believe Neo went where the Architect wanted him to. Mayhaps the Architect knows somehow(better than Neo) that Neo will come up with a creative solution that will work for the benefit of all.

Well, the Architect has a vested self-interest in perpetuating his construct in the fashion that he wishes it. Anything that undoes that will make him obsolete and subject to deletion. Neo appears to be going in a direction that he can't control. Who knows, in desparation during M3, the Smiths will be sent out in force to stop him.

It's like any dictator who would be lasing out in an irrational pattern as his regime is collapsing around his ears.

By his flawless mathematical nature, and his extreme "desire" for symmetry and "perfection," I do not believe that the Architect is capable of acting irrationally. This is not Uday we're talking about here. This is a God-like machine mind who can see the chemical precursors to an organic being's reactions. Cause...and effect(forget not that the restaurant La Vrai means "the truth"[or that it was on floor 101]).

Quote:

I do not believe that the Architect is capable of acting irrationally.

It would not be irrational to team up with all the Smiths in a last attempt to stop Neo from gaining control over the matrix.

I still don't get why Neo making the door choice would fix any bug in the matrix. If I was the architect, I would pull out my .44 Magnum and blow Neos brain out. Then wipe Zion of the (subterrainian) map.

Jack Frost wrote:

Mayhaps the Architect knows somehow(better than Neo) that Neo will come up with a creative solution that will work for the benefit of all.

I like that. Have added it to the polls.

When Neo uses his human mind to bend the Matrix, the code is rewritten. This is bad for the overall environment, as all of these equations affect each other symbiotically, just like a "real" environment. When Neo goes inside Smith to obliterate him, he wasn't exactly an expert at rewritng thwe Matrix code and so created a very bad virus. By the end of Reloaded it was pretty clear that there were not a large amount of pedestrains anymore. Smith is exponentially becoming everyone in the Matrix. Can we say "cataclysmic system crash"? Once Neo is in the source(real computer/machine city mainframe) and is scanned, maybe they will have a better idea of controlling/understanding these strange multiplying mammals?

You seem to have a lot of good answers.

There seems to be something strange about the fight between Neo and the Smiths... It seems to be set up by the oracle or seraph (They know he's coming), and maybe they did it to start the massive multiplying of Smith (who has to learn that he needs to be as many as possible). Thereby causing the crash... You figure it out.

Thank you. But as you well know, appearances can be deceiving, which brings me back to the reason why we're here:
I think Smith is the big difference this time(6) around(revolutions).
"It's happening exactly as before."
"Well not exactly." smirk

Quote:

I think Smith is the big difference this time(6) around(revolutions).

I certainly seems so from the M3 teaser. I guess the bros. liked the ending of LOTR so much (gollum saves the world) so they decided to have Smith save the world.

Personally I don't like those endings.

"Good can never win except from the unwilling help of evil."

That sucks.

There is no good and evil here. The Second Rennaisance puts it well in the end when it says,
"Forgive Man and Machine for their sins."
Who isn't getting exactly what they deserve? You reap the harvest you have sown, coppertop.
I think Neo represents the serenity of humanity(enlightenment).
And Smith represents the madness of humanity(ignorance of the masses).
Maybe.

I believe Neo chose the door that he Architect wanted him to choose . What are the probabilities of the architect being wrong ? p<.05 . That is a very small percentage , it is possible , but the odds are very very small .

drnima wrote:

I believe Neo chose the door that he Architect wanted him to choose.

Did you cast your vote already in the Matrix Polls?

guy i remeber that the arch9itect told Neo that he already knows what he is going to choose!

what Neo had chosen was already know by the Architect ,right?

Personally, I don't believe anyone lies in the Matrix. I believe the Oracle is telling the truth, I believe Morpheus is telling the truth, I believe the Architect was telling the truth.

Truth is much more complicated, and truth has the ability to "lead astay" if the entire truth is not known, from either perspective (the one telling the truth or the one receving it). The Oracle was telling the truth, "one of you is going to die", and so Neo did indeed die. The Architect was telling the truth, "She is going to die and there is nothing you can do about it". Yes, Trinity did die. She was brought back to life, but she did indeed die. The Oracle saying that the war will end when Neo visits the source, that's very true. Fact is - Neo hasn't visited the source. The source was the door to the right. He took the left. He didn't visit the Source.

In response to the general idea that Neo somehow did what the Architect wanted him to do I believe is errorneous. The Architect clearly wanted Neo to choose the right door. First of all, knowning the Wachowskis, the right door is the "Right" door. Now I'll list a couple reasons:

1. The Architect states that by choosing the left door, Neo would be responsibile for the destruction of all of humanity. Not the biggest encouragement speech ever to take it.
2. The Architect states that they created an enviroment so Neo would become attached to the world in a general way, thereby choosing the right door because he loved humanity.

As for "forcing" Neo to choose a door, there is no forcing. The Matrix has been creating with choice, real shoice, albeit at a near unconcious level. That choice in the Matrix is always real. What is it about the Merovingians speech saying there is no choice? I believe, with the fact that the Merovingian might be a previous One, that he is trying to justify his choice. His choice was to save the world. He tries to say "look, its not my fault, I didn't have a choice!". Is he lying? No, because in his mind he didn't have a choice.

Just my 2 testicles.

The speech of the Mero is a bit strange, since he really chooses to program the cake (tart tart ) to have fun. There was no cause for this.

knnknn wrote:

The speech of the Mero is a bit strange, since he really chooses to program the cake (tart tart ) to have fun. There was no cause for this.

I believe there was. The Merovingian is pleading his case that choice is an illusion, and he demonstrates with a woman and a cake. He claims that she didn't have any choice in the matter wether she had that orgasm or not. This relates to another one of my theories that:

1. Merovingian is a previous One
2. Merovingian is trying to justify his actions in taking the right door

He states, "What is the reason? And soon it does not matter, soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself." Yes, the woman suddenly didn't care that she was going to have an orgasm, and let it happen. However this is hardly lack of choice. Had she been more aware of the choice, she might have given it more thought, which is the entire synopsis of why people stay in the matrix. They're barely aware of the choice except those whom are very wise or have refined senses. But not being aware of a choice and not having choice are two very, very different things.

Trinity wrote:

Is it just me or do u think that in the end the Architect was bluffing and making neo choose the door on neo's right rather than left. but he was doing this in such a "cool" manner...also, last minute, before he opens the door, does the architect say the last thing about hope to make neo stop, think again and choose the other door?

I think the element to be considered here is that the Architect is NOT the program with intuition, that's the Oracle's role. Hence, the choice given was a biased one that clearly favoured re-starting Zion.

That fact that Neo didn't is perhaps due to a certain element of "chance" in what it means to be a human being (isn't THAT what the film's about?), at least if he IS human

You're basing that previous argument on an assumption which has been arguably proven incorrect. The Oracle is not the program which the Architect defines as being the one with intuition. The Architect seems to scoff at the notion that the Oracle is the program, let alone even on his side altogether. He responds to Neo's "The Oracle." with a "Please" in a very condensening tone.

Basically what the architect identifies as Neo walks out is one of the differences between man and machine. Man has hope, it is not very fathomable to program hope into a machine. Hope is something which cannot be computed and pretty much goes against all the rules and structure computer systems have. Personally, I believe it is a fundamental key in defeating the machines.

Quote:

Hope is something which cannot be computed and pretty much goes against all the rules and structure computer systems have. Personally, I believe it is a fundamental key in defeating the machines.

Yup. I guess Hope, Love and good Friends is the three key elements in Neos victory.