»Cyhper killing Neo(M1)«

if you can all recall the scene where Neo, Trin, apoc, switch and cypher are inside the matrix. Cypher gets out first8as planed) and watches them die one by one in his bare hands. Well my question here is this: When he was about to un plug Neo, he said "If he is the One, then a miracle must stop me".(and it does)Tank shows up and blasts off cypher and his menace. If he had been killed(I know that would not happen beacuase the movie has to continue, but let's all not take this perspective, because as we all know, every detail in the movies has a REASON, a PURPOSE) then the whole matrix-reload wouldn't have happended, and that can't happen cuz it would scew all up. So how in hell did it happen, besides the obvious "miracle" or "coincidence" of tank being alive. The only real answer I can think(and thought for a long time since then) is the MwM theory, that way, id the real world was in fact another matrix, they could "control" in some degree what happens, by foretelling what could happen(probabilities) and anticipating the future events/choices, just as in the real matrix it is donw by the Arch and the Oracle.

So how else did this happen, if not the obvious and the MwM theory?

Great question, Piuk!

This has bothered me for some time. However, I'm not willing to buy into the MwM theory. I think the easiest explaination is that it is a miracle.

If you remember when Cypher first shot Tank, he misses his mark and says, "Shit!" I know he shoots him again, but perhaps that didn't kill him, either. Anyhow, perhaps that is the miracle. Cypher doesn't kill Tank on the first shot as planned, which allows him to get up at the right moment.

That's exactly why I mean by asking this question. The Oracle/Architect can't affort to lose the One like that in the real world. If it had not been a "miracle", then what? They can't affort to lose the One that easily, there must be a SAFE NET(MwM theory).

If Cypher had pulled Neo's plug the extreme circumstance of near death experience would have made him realise his powers as 'The One' (just like when smith kills him in M1) and his mind would have entered the matrix without the need to connect to his body, just like when neo is in Mobil Ave when his body is not connected physically to the matrix via the neural link.

Yaldaboath wrote:

If Cypher had pulled Neo's plug the extreme circumstance of near death experience would have made him realise his powers as 'The One' (just like when smith kills him in M1) and his mind would have entered the matrix without the need to connect to his body, just like when neo is in Mobil Ave when his body is not connected physically to the matrix via the neural link.

Yes, but again, that theory on how neo hot inside movile ave is, as I conserne, other of the arguments on why there has to be a MwM, thoerwise the posibility for him to do so(in a rational/logical/realistical way) would be under that parameters. there is no other way, not even those explanations that on many threads have been said all over the place, they are pure nonsense. Neo is not a machine(only has pieces of metal in his body), nor program, nor he entered there by some bullshit kind of "wireless connection", nor is the matrix movie a fantasy movie, it is science ficction. Be real guys.

My above post was just my idea of how the film's narritive would have carried on if cypher hadnt been stopped (in a way fitting with the rest of it), not how it would happen if the films were real.

Well the films are real aren't they?

I think the force that stopped Neo being killed by cypher was "Destiny" or "God". The films are very strongly religious but we rarely see anything representing "God" I believe in the films "God" is represented as the force that protects them in the 'real world'. Many a time have the important characters managed to save themselves at the last moment in 'the real world'. For example Cypher-Neo for one, Neo jacking out (smirk) at the last second before the EMP is triggered at the end of M1.

I think the "safety net" that implys a MwM is the force of God.If 'God' is actually real I suppose you could say that our universe is just another kind of matrix that he created.

There's a principle in film making that you can afford one coincidence per movie. So this was the one (The One?).

Quote:

If Cypher had pulled Neo's plug the extreme circumstance of near death experience would have made him realise his powers as 'The One' (just like when smith kills him in M1)

Hmmm..what if Cypher really did unplug Neo, but Neo's mind detaches inside The Matrix, and the rest of the movie(s) are simply Neo's delusions?

Quote:

Hmmm..what if Cypher really did unplug Neo, but Neo's mind detaches inside The Matrix, nd the rest of the movie(s) are simply Neo's delusions?

Interesting idea.
It leads me back to the question
"How do we know we aren’t just the fleeting day dream of some super intelligent bug"

Yaldaboath wrote:

I think the force that stopped Neo being killed by cypher was "Destiny" or "God". The films are very strongly religious but we rarely see anything representing "God" I believe in the films "God" is represented as the force that protects them in the 'real world'. Many a time have the important characters managed to save themselves at the last moment in 'the real world'. For example Cypher-Neo for one, Neo jacking out (smirk) at the last second before the EMP is triggered at the end of M1. I think the "safety net" that implys a MwM is the force of God.If 'God' is actually real I suppose you could say that our universe is just another kind of matrix that he created.

GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE EVENTS(and events in our life). Let me just put it this way. WHO MAKES THE ALL-DAY-CHOICES FOR YOU? DOES GOD DO IT? I RATHER THINK WE DO THEM, WE ARE FREE AFTER ALL.

And you don't seem to undertand the whole point here. I already told you, the oracle/arch can't affort to lose the One in those situationS, they CAN NOT "RELY" ON GOD AND HIS MIRACLES, OR GOD'S DESTINY.

I think that religion is what the Matrix is all about. I mean maybe that is the point that the W bros were tryin to make. The Matrix may be a metaphor for life as we know it. God in the end has the final say so in our fate. The merovingian is right I think (to a certain extent) also. Choice is an illusion created between those with control and those without. I don't think there will ever be a logical answer as to why certain things were able to happen or take place (Neo controlling the sentinals, Cypher being taken out just as he says that only a miracle can stop him, etc.) in the movie. Just as there is no logical explanation to how Moses parted the Red Sea, Jesus turned water into wine, etc. You either believe that it happened or you don't, it's that simple. I truly would not be suprised if somewhere down the line this turned out to be the explanation for these events (or something similar). It's all about faith. Then (of course) I could be wrong, about the movie, that is.

Everytime there is a problem in the movies people tend to go with the easiest solution that is mwam. Maybe it is just a miracle, maybe tank just gets knocked out and wakes up just as cypher is about to do his deed. The movies are very religious and I like that there is this sense of spirituality throughout them. If the brothers were to come out and reveal all the secrets of the matrix and they said, "the explanation for what neo can do is that everything is an illusion",wouldn't you be dissapointed, wouldn't you feel that the w's should have been able to come up with something else than the most predictable answer out there. And I don't believe in god and the bible is like the matrix, a system of control keeping people locked up, saying that ohhh if you do that you go to hell, it's so stupid but I could be wrong, god could exist, but since he is letting us kill and torture and destroy eachother and the planet he is either a very cruel god or a very non existing one. I agree with what Marx said that god did not create humans, humans created god. But I am not calling religious people idiots because I'm sure they are happy with their religion and that is good but some religious fanatics just piss me off, like yesterday when I found a baptist site where they thanked the lord that swedish and american people died in the tsunami, I'm swedish and I got so mad, I had a friend who almost died there and to read this crap just makes me so fucking angry. Check out the site if you want but you won't like it

I genuinely beleive that it won't be some madman who will destroy our planet...

It will be religious maniacs christians/muslims/jews...
============
The christian hypocricy makes my blood boil...

They say sodomy is bad - and at the same time they sodomise each other and their congregations...
They say life is precious and they sentence people to die...

I can go on and on...

You know the funny part though?

The people who really hate gays - usually are gay themselves and they can't stand it about themselves... They are too ashamed to be gay... They envy those open gays who go out and party and have fun...

yipman wrote:

Everytime there is a problem in the movies people tend to go with the easiest solution that is mwam. Maybe it is just a miracle, maybe tank just gets knocked out and wakes up just as cypher is about to do his deed. The movies are very religious and I like that there is this sense of spirituality throughout them. If the brothers were to come out and reveal all the secrets of the matrix and they said, "the explanation for what neo can do is that everything is an illusion",wouldn't you be dissapointed, wouldn't you feel that the w's should have been able to come up with something else than the most predictable answer out there. And I don't believe in god and the bible is like the matrix, a system of control keeping people locked up, saying that ohhh if you do that you go to hell, it's so stupid but I could be wrong, god could exist, but since he is letting us kill and torture and destroy eachother and the planet he is either a very cruel god or a very non existing one. I agree with what Marx said that god did not create humans, humans created god. But I am not calling religious people idiots because I'm sure they are happy with their religion and that is good but some religious fanatics just piss me off, like yesterday when I found a baptist site where they thanked the lord that swedish and american people died in the tsunami, I'm swedish and I got so mad, I had a friend who almost died there and to read this crap just makes me so fucking angry. Check out the site if you want but you won't like it godhatessweden.com... fucking sick bastards. Sorry for going off topic but that site just made me so mad.

Well I don't want to go into a discution on religios stuff, but here I go with something only.

YOU SAID THAT IF GOD EXISTED OR WAS NOT AN EVIL ONE, THE WHY LET US DO ALL THOSE STUFF(KILLL, SUFFER, ETC)? WELL, HE MADE US FREE DID HE? HE CAN'T INTERVENE IN OUR FREE WILL.

Sorry to say this, but people lwho don't believe in jesus and the bible is one thing...but in GOD? THAT PISSES ME OFF, FUCKING BASTARDS, that's what I think in my mind. To think they were created by some kind of "chance"? WTF? Do they think the universe is some kind of ACCIDENT? SOME KIND OF SELF CREATION-OUT-OF-NOWHERE? Makes no sense.

PiukNeo wrote:

GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE EVENTS(and events in our life). Let me just put it this way. WHO MAKES THE ALL-DAY-CHOICES FOR YOU? DOES GOD DO IT? I RATHER THINK WE DO THEM, WE ARE FREE AFTER ALL. And you don't seem to undertand the whole point here. I already told you, the oracle/arch can't affort to lose the One in those situationS, they CAN NOT "RELY" ON GOD AND HIS MIRACLES, OR GOD'S DESTINY.

If you are saying that God has nothing to do with the events in the films I think you do not understand the films. Did you ever wonder why there is a religion and philosophical links section to the website?

I liked how you tried to make a witty argument with caps lock on, the true mark of a great debater.
You seem to forget that the films are just films, they dont have to be 100% credible to real life and every little detail doesnt have to be consistent with everything else. You dont seem to think that in a film that religion plays a great deal in 'God' could help make events go in favour of 'the good guys' but you dont challenge the idea of super intelligent robots making artificial wombs to grow humans in who all live in an interactive computer world.

Also at the point in the film where Cypher nearly kills Neo the forces that control the Matrix dont really seem too bothered about keeping Neo alive, seeing as they send agents after him and attempt to kill him repeatedly. So why would the 'MwM' safety net be set up to save Neo? The Architect only wants Neo alive after he realises he is the one.
If you suggest that the supposed 'MwM' is set up by forces other than the machines you would be right. It was the W brothers because they realised that if their main character dies half way through the first part of a trilogy they might run into a few script problems later. So they decide to play God and save Neo.

why the fuck all this miracle god shit.

neo was saved because tank fucking survived. would u call tank surviving a mircale?

and another thing....u say that the universe couldnt have happened by chance... why the fuck not? how do u know? no one on earth knows how the universe began, and it is one of those questions that may never ever be answered unless sometime in the future we meet the true god if there is one.

I have no religion. Even though i have went to Christian Catholic schools for the past 9 years. And i hate it how i was almost not allowed into the high school that all my friends were going to because i wasn't a Christian. The only thing i believe in is Science.

wow... its 5am and im posting all of this weird shit

Tank survived and fried cypher simple as that. PiukNeo how can you be pissed off at people just because they don't believe in god and how can you believe in god when you have absolutely no idea if he exists. You, like everyone else have no idea how we were created or why, if there is a why. If something almighty created us or if we are just a mistake we will probably never know.

This question isn't a 'good' question anymore, because it has been asked many times on this forum.

PiukNeo stating that it is all crap that he has a wireless connection and all, is bullshit. If he only would try to dive into the world of computer science and technoligy, then he would realize that it IS very well possible.

The Oracle knew about Cypher being the judas, so I doubt that she would count on the 'real-world-God' for saving Neo.

Esoteric teachings tells us that there is alot of energy around us that we will never notice (I mean do you notice the radiation from cellular phones? No!). They also tell us that each person on earth has a guide, which is some sort of 'guardian angel' who gides you in your life on earth.

As the Wachoswki's depict the machine-world as the world of LIGHT, which in esotoric teachings is the most highest place to be, we can be sure that they do not mingle in the 'real-world-God' just like that.

I am sure that there is some sort of radiative network in the Real World. With this network they can send intuitive thoughts to the headplugs of the rebels. This is not the same as receiving and accepting a program. It is just a thought that 'whispers' in your head and you can choose to listen to it or not. But most people DO listen to their intuition.
You must see it just like a cellular phone. The thought is being transmitted into the heaplug, but you cannot see anything from the outside.

In the esoteric teachings there is also a phenonomon that is called a TRUE 'guardian angel'. This 'angel' can use an invisible force of physical energy to push you away to prevent a car accident for instance. This 'guardian angel' only helps out when it is 'not your time to go yet'.
We all know that it wasn't Neo's time to go, because he had a purpose to fulfill. So either an invisible energy force, emitted by the machines, swunged Cypher's gun or maybe a 'disturbing' thought entered Cypher's headplug just before shooting. You can see on Cypher's face that he is somehow surprised that he missed.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

This question isn't a 'good' question anymore, because it has been asked many times on this forum. PiukNeo stating that it is all crap that he has a wireless connection and all, is bullshit. If he only would try to dive into the world of computer science and technoligy, then he would realize that it IS very well possible. The Oracle knew about Cypher being the judas, so I doubt that she would count on the 'real-world-God' for saving Neo. Esoteric teachings tells us that there is alot of energy around us that we will never notice (I mean do you notice the radiation from cellular phones? No!). They also tell us that each person on earth has a guide, which is some sort of 'guardian angel' who gides you in your life on earth. As the Wachoswki's depict the machine-world as the world of LIGHT, which in esotoric teachings is the most highest place to be, we can be sure that they do not mingle in the 'real-world-God' just like that. I am sure that there is some sort of radiative network in the Real World. With this network they can send intuitive thoughts to the headplugs of the rebels. This is not the same as receiving and accepting a program. It is just a thought that 'whispers' in your head and you can choose to listen to it or not. But most people DO listen to their intuition. You must see it just like a cellular phone. The thought is being transmitted into the heaplug, but you cannot see anything from the outside. In the esoteric teachings there is also a phenonomon that is called a TRUE 'guardian angel'. This 'angel' can use an invisible force of physical energy to push you away to prevent a car accident for instance. This 'guardian angel' only helps out when it is 'not your time to go yet'. We all know that it wasn't Neo's time to go, because he had a purpose to fulfill. So either an invisible energy force, emitted by the machines, swunged Cypher's gun or maybe a 'disturbing' thought entered Cypher's headplug just before shooting. You can see on Cypher's face that he is somehow surprised that he missed.

I dont wnna be a pain in the ass, but that "force" is nothing butPURE ADRENALINE, your body reacts with its nervous system, helping it to prevent "accidents" or such things.
If there is really such forces(even though "teached" in that estoic science) then we all need an example of such force and a SCIENTIFIC PROFF that it really exists and it is nothing else(such as I say, the adrenaline).

It has nothing to do with adrenaline if you don't see the accident coming at you in advance.

The adrenaline is a reaction to a danger that you see coming at you.

Fact remains that it is technically possible for the machines to influence them in the Real World.

A MwiM is also technically possible, but that would make it lame to my opinion. Then they would not apply the blue-filter in the Zion scenes. That stuff is all pure and real.

If these Matrices are based on choice, then the 'Zion-matrix' will be flawed too: there is always such an anomalous person who will break the rules and see beyond the offered program.