»Does anyone understand the significance of Sati?«

The significance of Sati was the abilty to change the matrix and create new things, change existing things. When NEO is supposed to go through the door in the room of monitors with the Architect, he is to get his code disseminated, destroying smith in the process, get infused with new code, and go to select the new 'freed mind in the matrix who would be migrated to Zion to rebuild it.

When Morpheous is telling NEO about the past, he says in the beginning a man was born inside who could remake the matrix as he saw fit. Well obvioulsy that was one of NEOs predecessors who choose the first door and followed what the matrix wanted him to do. he was given the ability to remake the matrix and change things, to make it more believeable to humans. Obvioulsy NEO never had the ability to remake the matrix, he could fly and bend rules but could not change anything. That program he was to have infused is called Sati. This is why in M3 she is being smuggled out of the machine mainframe into the matrix, because her purpose is gone, and she faces deletion. When Smith fuses with her he is able to remake things "You like what I've done with the place". He can create lightning, and rain, etc.

This is the significance of Sati in the movie.

And for a 100th time I have to make this comment: If it wasn't for Mirovingian, there wouldn't have been a Sati.

omega wrote:

And for a 100th time I have to make this comment: If it wasn't for Mirovingian, there wouldn't have been a Sati.

I know you've heard this before, but for the record, "What does that have to do with anything?"

Besides, they already explained why Sati was being smuggled out of the machine world when they were in the subway station.

I think people are missing a big point here.

Sati would not ever have been included in the trilogy if it wasn't for the person who originally played the Oracle would not have died (in real life.) Because she died the Wachowski's had to cast someone else for the part of the Oracle.

Now to keep the script consistent the reason for the change in the appearance of the Oracle was the termination code of her shell being sold to the Merovingian so that Sati could be spared and not killed for not having a purpose. In other words, if the original Oracle had lived there would not have been a reason to introduce her in the story.

This is why I don't think she is going to be a new One or anything of that kind. That would mean the script would suddenly change and ultimately the plot would take a dramatic turn over night. I just don't see that being possible after the brothers worked extremely hard on the philosophies and ideas of the script for so long, that they would suddenly have to change a significant part of the ending, during the middle of shooting Reloaded and Revolutions. They scripts were already written and they didn't have much time to change it. Think about this for a second and let it sink in.

Good point...

Thanks.

And I want people to realize this. I know what the Oracle said, but take things in to perspective for a moment.

It is a very good point, but I think you contradict yourself a little bit. El Escogido said that the actress's death who played the Oracle was the sole reason for Sati's existence in the movie then says that there was too much that happened in the script afterwards for her death to be the sole reason for everything that came next in the same breath.

The second part I believe the most. The actress's death did play a huge part in some changes that had to be made, but i dnon't think it influenced everything that came afterwards. There's just too much there for it all to be last minute.

phantomprowler wrote:

It is a very good point, but I think you contradict yourself a little bit. El Escogido said that the actress's death who played the Oracle was the sole reason for Sati's existence in the movie then says that there was too much that happened in the script afterwards for her death to be the sole reason for everything that came next in the same breath.

I don't get it.

Yeah there were a lot of things afterwards. But these were things that had to be edited in the middle of having the movie shot. Remember they had the scripts done years before, and then storyboards and so on. It took them years to develop that, and they had to replace it with something that could fit, but it could not have as big as an impact as something well thought out and worked on thoroughly.

You're reenforcing my point. Yeah, they had to explain the fact that there was a new Oracle. But do you really think the entire ending of the movie wasn't originally in their plan? Whether or not the Oracle got a new shell probably didn't have any bearing on The Sati situation. i could have worked either way. Instead of a shell change they could have used a number of explanations.

That's the thing, I don't think that was the intention of their original ending.

Yes, I believe Neo was going to reach the machine city and the fate of both worlds would be decided by him. No, I did not think it would have made a difference whether Sati had been there or not. But that's just my opinion, and I totally understand what you're saying.

I dont see this. I see no where that Sati has to have anything to do with the death of Gloria foster. All they had to do was have her explain to Morph, Neo, and Trin why she looks differently. There is no explanation in the movie that says Sati is allowed in because the power plant systems manager gives Merv her shell terminate codes. How could he? he runs the powerplant, he does not control programs like the Oracle or the Architect nor would he have access to that type of data. If he did I think Merv would have more access than the recylcing manager for the power plant. Sati explains a lot, she explains how someone can make changes in the matrix. She was created for a purpose but her purpose was gone before it could be used so she faced deletion. Her purpose was a program to instill in NEO to allow him to make certain changes in the matrix, changes that the last one had done as well. Morpheous referred to these changes in M1 "..was able to remake the matrix as he saw fit.." After Smith inhabits her (Sati) he is able to remake the matrix as he sees fit, lightning, thunder, rain, etc.

Your idea is a smart hypothesis, but there is no reference behind it. There is nothing stated to make it seem like the Oracles shell was given up by anyone other than herself, and no reason at all that it had anything to do with Sati. In fact there is everything said that disproves that idea. Here is what the Oracle says herself about the losss of her former shell..

Quote:

Oracle: I'm the Oracle. I wish there was an easier way to get through this but there ain't. I'm sorry this had to happen. I'm sorry I couldn't be sitting here like you remember me. But it wasn't meant to be. Trinity: What happened? Oracle: I made a choice, and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to. Morpheus: What choice? Oracle: To help you to guide Neo. Now, since the real test for any choice is having to make the same choice again, knowing full well what it might cost - I guess I feel pretty good about that choice, 'cause here I am, at it again.

Nothing about Sati has anything to do with what happens to NEO or there mission at all. Sati does not help NEO in any way other than talking to him some in a friendly way at Mobile avenue. So to say someone else gave her program codes away to pay for Satis smuggle into the Matrix is incorrect.

<begin hypothesis>The only clue I get to decyphering how she was captured/killed/detroyed/whatever is something that Merv says in Hel to Seraph. He calls him "my little Judas". We all should know who Judas is. Judas Iscariot was christs friend and betrayed him for profit, I am assuming (this one is an assumption because I have not tested this hypothesis at all) that in some way Seraph gave up the Oracle for profit, but in a way that helped her long term goals, and it was a planned thing, she allowed Seraph to give her up, and Merv believed he was betrayng her, though the price he was paid for giving up the Oracle was one that the oracle needed to further NEOs purpose? That idea is an assumption, totally. But there is also a piece to that portion of the puzzle I am still trying to put in the right spot. Seraph of course would be short for Seraphim, the highest order of angels who were there ot annoint the prohets lips (among other things) and who took human form only, so they would not have wings. But then there is an Egyptian word Seref which were the egyptian version of Grifffins placed to protect the graves of the powerful.<end hypothesis>

Everything within that hypothesis bracket was just that, I hold no candle to those ideas, I do all the rest.

jaxdevil wrote:

I dont see this. I see no where that Sati has to have anything to do with the death of Gloria foster. All they had to do was have her explain to Morph, Neo, and Trin why she looks differently. There is no explanation in the movie that says Sati is allowed in because the power plant systems manager gives Merv her shell terminate codes. How could he? he runs the powerplant, he does not control programs like the Oracle or the Architect nor would he have access to that type of data. If he did I think Merv would have more access than the recylcing manager for the power plant. Sati explains a lot, she explains how someone can make changes in the matrix. She was created for a purpose but her purpose was gone before it could be used so she faced deletion. Her purpose was a program to instill in NEO to allow him to make certain changes in the matrix, changes that the last one had done as well. Morpheous referred to these changes in M1 "..was able to remake the matrix as he saw fit.." After Smith inhabits her (Sati) he is able to remake the matrix as he sees fit, lightning, thunder, rain, etc.

Well it is mentioned in Reloaded, and more specifically in Enter The Matrix. That's why I believe what I do.

Where in Reloaded? I know Rama-Kandra is in Mervs restaurant in Reloaded but thats the only thing I think you can be refering to. Where does it say this in ETM?

It does not make any sense to me, forgeting about everything else I said previously about it, how could that have been anyones point to destroy the oracle, to free sati, to come stay with the oracle? The Merovingian was trying to destroy her, so how could the plan have been to destroy her AND make her the childs gaurdian? Even if Merv had nothing to do with it surely her father did, how could he know that she would come back?

Sorry i meant Revolutions.

When Trinity asks the Oracle what happened to her she says that she "made a choice and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to." She continued on saying that she wanted to help Neo.

This is all in response to what she tells I believe Niobe, and previously Seraph about selling the termination code of her shell to the Merovingian in return for Sati. I don't know any more specifics or the exact scene but it's there. I'm not the only one who saw this.

The plan was not for the Merovingian to be her guardian. She gave her termination code to Sati's parents. She says in Enter the Matrix, that two programs she trusted sold her termination code out of love, love for their child. They made a deal with the Merovingian - trade the code for Sati. They then gave Sati to the Oracle because she was an exile, and the Oracle had to find a new shell. This was the essence of Sati.

Read the past posts before you make generalities like that. I already posted what the oracle said, word for word a couple posts back on this same thread, here they are again..

Quote:

Oracle: I'm the Oracle. I wish there was an easier way to get through this but there ain't. I'm sorry this had to happen. I'm sorry I couldn't be sitting here like you remember me. But it wasn't meant to be. Trinity: What happened? Oracle: I made a choice, and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to. Morpheus: What choice? Oracle: To help you to guide Neo. Now, since the real test for any choice is having to make the same choice again, knowing full well what it might cost - I guess I feel pretty good about that choice, 'cause here I am, at it again.

The choice she made that cost her the previous shell was a choice to help guide NEO. This is not what I believe, this is what was said "what choice?" "to help you to guide neo". Now nothing about Sati concerns Morph or Trin or anyone else in Zion, and she was refering to choosing to help THEM to guide Neo, and she is saying here she is at it again, meaning there she is helping them again.

Now I dont know if we ot off track here, but back when I said I dont think Sati had anything to do with her death I did say 'Gloria Foster' not the Oracle. Someone was refering to Sati being written into the movie somehow because of they had to explain why the oracle had changed bodies, but Gloria foster was not dead in M2 so how could they need to throw in Rama-Kandra meeting Merv to sell her termination code when she wasnt even dead and they had not had to plan on replacing her yet?

Now Sati may have had her way out of the matrix bought by the selling of the oracles termination codes, but that wasnt written in to explain the change in the oracles body.

My main point was that Sati had no purpose and was facing deletion because Neo would choose the wrong door and he never would have had to fuse with that code she carried (creation, i.e. 'changing things as he saw fit')

jaxdevil wrote:

Read the past posts before you make generalities like that. I already posted what the oracle said, word for word a couple posts back on this same thread, here they are again.. Quote: Oracle: I'm the Oracle. I wish there was an easier way to get through this but there ain't. I'm sorry this had to happen. I'm sorry I couldn't be sitting here like you remember me. But it wasn't meant to be. Trinity: What happened? Oracle: I made a choice, and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to. Morpheus: What choice? Oracle: To help you to guide Neo. Now, since the real test for any choice is having to make the same choice again, knowing full well what it might cost - I guess I feel pretty good about that choice, 'cause here I am, at it again. The choice she made that cost her the previous shell was a choice to help guide NEO. This is not what I believe, this is what was said "what choice?" "to help you to guide neo". Now nothing about Sati concerns Morph or Trin or anyone else in Zion, and she was refering to choosing to help THEM to guide Neo, and she is saying here she is at it again, meaning there she is helping them again. Now I dont know if we ot off track here, but back when I said I dont think Sati had anything to do with her death I did say 'Gloria Foster' not the Oracle. Someone was refering to Sati being written into the movie somehow because of they had to explain why the oracle had changed bodies, but Gloria foster was not dead in M2 so how could they need to throw in Rama-Kandra meeting Merv to sell her termination code when she wasnt even dead and they had not had to plan on replacing her yet? Now Sati may have had her way out of the matrix bought by the selling of the oracles termination codes, but that wasnt written in to explain the change in the oracles body. My main point was that Sati had no purpose and was facing deletion because Neo would choose the wrong door and he never would have had to fuse with that code she carried (creation, i.e. 'changing things as he saw fit')

I don't know about that, but like I said in Enter The Matrix the Oracle covers all of these occurrences. When I get the specific conversation I will post it here.

I forgot to add something.

The emergence of Sati in this trilogy had everything to do with Gloria Foster's death.

Like I said earlier in a previous post Sati would not ever have been included in the trilogy if it wasn't for the person who originally played the Oracle would not have died (in real life.) Because she died the Wachowski's had to cast someone else for the part of the Oracle.

Now to keep the script consistent the reason for the change in the appearance of the Oracle was the termination code of her shell being sold to the Merovingian so that Sati could be spared and not killed for not having a purpose. In other words, if the original Oracle had lived there would not have been a reason to introduce her in the story.

These are the facts whether you agree/like with them or not.

I dont dislike ideas I am just trying to show/get to the facts and I am trying to get theories and not hypotheses. Its a good idea but lets take Sati out of the Movie. The oracle could not have been destroyed and changed bodies without introducing Sati? I mean she is easily integrated into the changes that had to come from the oracles change in body (gloria fosters death) but that does not mean she is a product of it. The back story of the oracle dying could have been blended with any portion of the movie. The facts are she died in real life (our world) and the borthers had to integrate her body change into the movie. They didnt have to add anything new to the movie, just merge the exisiting plans for the movie into this problem. They could have said 'lets make it smith got to her and killed her body but her 'eyes' got away. Smith could have killed her and we could then be saying smiths new assimilation powers came from getting her shell but not her 'eyes' (her foresight powers) as the merovingian asks for in M3 when in fact we know smiths morphing powers are not because he killed the oracle, because he didnt.

Example. I buy a car, I have a job, the first day I have the new car I drive to work. Do I have the job because of the new car? No, they are related in the fact I drive the car to work.

I dont doubt her codes were sold to release Sati, but nothing in M2, or M3 says anything about this. ETM obviously does. But she was not written in for the sake of explaining the oracle, the oracles change explains her, not the other way around. The oracles change in body helped only to explain Satis migration. Satis migration didnt explain the Oracles new body.

I understand your reasoning. But I'm not saying that the Oracle's change could not exist without Sati, I'm simply saying it does exist because of her, as a qucik-fix solution to a major problem in the production of the film.

Ok. So what proof can you offer for that hypothesis? What shows that she was written in for the purpose of explaining the Oracle? I so far see nothing that shows that Sati exists because of Sati. Make this a theory. Convince me.

I can't convince you. I can only lay out my opinions and what I base them on. I've already told you what happened with the production of the movie, and then what the Oracle explains in Enter The Matrix just reinforced it for me. If that doesn't allow you to believe it then nothing really will. Feel me?

Sure. But I am posting theories, and I am getting hypothesis as rebuttals. I would like some proof, even if it proves me wrong. I want the answer to this riddle of the matrix. I dont care if I am wrong if I get the truth in the end. But I am sharing what I have summations and they are getting responded to without any basis in tested ideas, just ideas. What the Oracle said does not show sati was made to explain her, if anything her change in body explains why Sati is freed. Sati did not need a reason to explain the price that was paid to get her out of the Matrix, the Oracle needed something to integrate her change. Satis part of the story and the Oracles part were just blended to explain this. Like I said, they could have blended the Oracles change with the destruction of the building that Neo met the Architect in. It would not make Satis part of the story disapear or be unneeded. If Gloria Fisher had never dies would there not have been a Mobile Avenue? by your hypothesis there wouldnt be, Sati and Neos conversation is the fundemental reason behing Mobiel Avenue, the Trainman came there to get Sati, wihtout Sati there would be no train man, no Neo stuck in Mobile Avenue, no conversation with Rama-kandra about love and karma. There would be alot missing if Sati was not in the movie, and if Glora Fisher never dies all those parts, and fundamental aspects of teh story (the chase of the trainman, the fight in the Hel club to free Neo, the barter with the Merovingian, etc.) So they just wrote all these parts in because she died and they had to replace her characters actress? That makes a lot less sense than they just integrated her change with pre-existing sets and script.

I heard that they had the idea of changing the oracles appearence before gloia died.

That would make sense. A lot of the script seems to have to do with it. The ony thing regarding this I see as a fact is that Sati was not created to explain the Oracles change.