»For those of you who think The One is Human«

For those of you who think The One is human, here's something to think about.

Often times people argue that people who are born in the matrix are strictly human, and so on.

Along with the variety of things that Neo does (like stopping sentinels in the real world, and blowing up bombs with his mind in the machine city) there are many signs that point to Neo not being completely human.

One main thing you must remember is that there is nothing natural about Neo. Yes, he carries the prime program. He has visions, he resurrects after he is killed within the matrix, he brings Trinity back to life after she was killed. These are some examples. The most important detail I think, however, is that Neo, along with everyone born within the matrix, are not born naturally. They are grown.

The machines grow the humans and there is nothing natural about that. Give it a thought.

Technically, everyone freed from the matrix is a cyborg.

Machines cannot create a human mind.

It's pretty obvious that the machines either house sperm and egg banks, or they transfer sperm between mother and father in the pods. I'm sure the machines have a complicated process for it, but it HAS TO involve sperm and egg. (However, the residual self image they talk about pretty much solidifies the theory that the machines know when two couples mate in the Matrix, for babies inherit their mother and father's looks and habits, thus the machines MUST use sperm and egg from the two people that mated.)

When Morpheus says that babies are "no longer born but they are grown", he's basically saying that the baby's MINDS aren't born into the Real World. He's not saying that they aren't human.

The Architect himself says that Neo remains "irrevocably" human. This means that he will always remain a human. That part of him cannot be changed.

And if for some reason I am wrong, then the trilogy was VERY flawed.

Good points, but I disagree.

BigMista wrote:

It's pretty obvious that the machines either house sperm and egg banks, or they transfer sperm between mother and father in the pods. I'm sure the machines have a complicated process for it, but it HAS TO involve sperm and egg.

Sati is a program and resembles her parents. The machines integrate physical aspects of each parent in to their offspring. They're highly intelligent and I would think that they would know how to do this.

BigMista wrote:

When Morpheus says that babies are "no longer born but they are grown", he's basically saying that the baby's MINDS aren't born into the Real World. He's not saying that they aren't human.

I also recall Smith telling Morpheus that when the first matrix had been built and failed "entire crops were lost." When you look at the fields they even resemble a farm and vegetation growing.

The humans that are born in the matrix are not completely human. They have metal holes all across their spine, head and body.

And again, Neo doing the things he does just reinforce my entire theory.

Listen to youselves He brought back the dead,he resurrects after he is killed within the matrix, The most important detail I think, however, is that Neo, along with everyone born within the matrix, are not born naturally. Like Jesus Dugh!

On the basics the humans are still humans...

The machines just made them partly mechanic, but they still are made of human flesh.

I agree that they are not born anymore out of human standards, which should be love in most of the cases (or just plain stupid horny feelings LOL).

They are grown and planned. I think the machines determine someone's characteristics by choosing how they mix certain genetics.

Neo was made "by design" according to the Architect, which to me implicates that his genectics were planned for him to be a handsome, clear-minded person that would feel an attachment to humanity and would save them.

But what they forgot was that a human can still be molded by influencing his psyche. I think the Oracle decided to mold his path a little bit by playing a manipulative game with Trinity and Neo.

I mean, telling someone beforehand that they will fall in love with a specific person is messing with the head

The Oracle: "What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything. You're cuter than I expected. No wonder she likes you."

That line reveals it all I think. Would he have broken the vase if she hadn't said anything? I think not!
Right after that she brings Trinity to the subject. Would she have fallen in love with Neo if the Oracle wouldn't have said anything? You see what I mean?

In "Enter the Matrix" it is clear that Ghost loves Trinity deeply and Trinity doesn't dislike Ghost either. Why would the Wachowski's bring this up? Well maybe to tell us that maybe she would have fallen in love with Ghost, but the Oracle manipulated otherwise.

That also brings up the question: what is love? Mostly it is based upon the psyche. The psyche will make sure that our neural-system will go and produce the chemical substances that are needed to make you feel in love. And we all know what love does to you. It will blind you from all forms of rationality; it will give you the feeling that you can handle the world. And that was exactly the little push that Neo needed to deny the Architect and choose the other door.

As it was the Architect's purpose to balance the equation, his only hope was to let Trinity die. This might be his only chance at leading Neo towards the right-hand door.

But to stay on the main subject that El Escogido brought up. Neo, and all the other people in the Matrix, were not 'born' out of human standards. But yet it were human standards that fixed up the Matrix and made it a more 'humanized' place further on. Conclusion, already stated beautifully by councelor Hamman: we need the machines and they need us.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

They are grown and planned. I think the machines determine someone's characteristics by choosing how they mix certain genetics. Neo was made "by design" according to the Architect, which to me implicates that his genectics were planned for him to be a handsome, clear-minded person that would feel an attachment to humanity and would save them. But what they forgot was that a human can still be molded by influencing his psyche. I think the Oracle decided to mold his path a little bit by playing a manipulative game with Trinity and Neo. I mean, telling someone beforehand that they will fall in love with a specific person is messing with the head

I totally agree with you, with just about everything.

Humans still contain their human characteristics even though they aren't born through the same process, which is unnatrual.

If the Architect and the machines can pick and choose how to grow humans, why could they not mechanically influence Neo's physical make-up? They can instill certain abilities in him which would allow him to be stronger and more powerful than almost any other being in the matrix.

I've said this before but think about this. Morpheus teaches Neo to believe that one can manipulate the matrix by believing it is not real. Then why can't Morpheus move at blazing speeds or even fly like Neo? Is his mind not as capable of believing that he can do that than Neo's?

El Escogido wrote:

If the Architect and the machines can pick and choose how to grow humans, why could they not mechanically influence Neo's physical make-up? They can instill certain abilities in him which would allow him to be stronger and more powerful than almost any other being in the matrix. I've said this before but think about this. Morpheus teaches Neo to believe that one can manipulate the matrix by believing it is not real. Then why can't Morpheus move at blazing speeds or even fly like Neo? Is his mind not as capable of believing that he can do that than Neo's?

That's a good point, but I personally don't believe in that.

Neo can do what he does, because his code is indentified inside the Matrix-system as a code that may break all the rules of this very system.

1% op the people are denying the program and each of these people can bend the rules a little bit (like bending a spoon or making higher jumps).
Just like the agents, these people are still bound to the rules of the system; they can only bend the rules a little bit by freeing their minds.

Morpheus: "I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be."

This implicates that Neo can shit on ALL the rules of the system.

The people that deny the Matrix are producing dirt in the equation. This dirt has no purpose and is threathening the mathematical harmony of the system. Now I believe that the Architect has summed up this dirt into one special code/variable, which is assigned to Neo.
So the code which Neo has is a summarisation of all the denial inside the Matrix. And what will be the result of this? The result will be that he can bend and break all the rules.

What the Architect is actually doing is he gives a rational function to the dirt: it has to return to the Source with Neo as the carrier. So Neo has to clean up the dirt. To say it bluntly, he is the garbage-man of the equation

But this is his function on a materialistic level. Thanks to the influence of love, Neo escapes this function, he enlightens fully and then saves us all.

BigMista:

"And if for some reason I am wrong, the trilogy is VERY flawed."

A very common response to the movies.

Mobil:

"But what they forgot was that a human can still be molded by influencing his psyche. I think the Oracle decided to mold his path a little bit by playing a manipulative game with Trinity and Neo."

I don't see this at all.

Yes, the Oracle has some fun with Neo -- the previously referenced vase -- and gets extremely technical with him -- 'You're not the One... yet' -- but she does everything in accordance with what Neo himself wants or asks, as is fully revealed in "Revolutions." Everyone seems to forget that the Oracle (along with the Keymaker) is, for lack of a better word, psychic; she sees the future (to a certain point, at any rate), she knows what needs to happen in order to get to that point, and she communicates on a spiritual realm with the beings around her (hence her comment in "Revolutions"). She is -- and operates as -- a multi-dimensional being; to try and understand her on only one of these levels is both erroneous and misleading.

El Escogido:

"If the Architect and the Machines can pick and choose how to grow humans, why could they not mechanically influence Neo's physical make-up?"

I don't think this is at all what's going on with Neo, if for no other reason than the fact that the point is never truly addressed in the films (which is in keeping with my previous point: stay within the text to understand the text). Rather, I think the explanation of how Neo is both part human and part Machine lies within the Matrix itself: as the Architect himself says, Neo carries certain programs in the code of his residual self image.

Mobil:

"The people that deny the Matrix are producing dirt in the equation."

That's an interesting interpretation of the fundamental flaw. Here's mine: the very act of choice -- which every human must have -- is what produces the anomaly.

msunyata

Everyone brings up some really good points.

This is just the way I interpreted the films, and although I may be wrong, it is what I think because of things I mentioned before and subtleties within all three movies. Maybe the Brothers will come out and let us know what's really going on one day.

msunyata wrote:

I don't see this at all. Yes, the Oracle has some fun with Neo -- the previously referenced vase -- and gets extremely technical with him -- 'You're not the One... yet' -- but she does everything in accordance with what Neo himself wants or asks, as is fully revealed in "Revolutions." Everyone seems to forget that the Oracle (along with the Keymaker) is, for lack of a better word, psychic; she sees the future (to a certain point, at any rate), she knows what needs to happen in order to get to that point, and she communicates on a spiritual realm with the beings around her (hence her comment in "Revolutions"). She is -- and operates as -- a multi-dimensional being; to try and understand her on only one of these levels is both erroneous and misleading.

If see knows the future, then why does she have to influence it? Hmm this line sounds weird in it's own right
But I think you know what I am trying to say here: she is making the future for a great deal; she is one of the key figures.

She only has contact with people that want out of the Matrix and with the rebels. She is fully responsible for letting the One emerge and evolve to what he is. Without her, Morpheus would not be so blinded by the Prophecy at all; she started it all my friend.
The reason why she does this, is because I think she is the prime program of the Matrix. This prime program is not yet perfect and that's why it is unbalancing itself. The people that want out of the Matrix are highly involved in this unbalancing and that's why the Oracle has contact with them.

As you know, the AI is also evolving itself. The Oracle/prime program has been dealing with five previous Ones and still the Matrix hasn't become a perfect program.
So what she wants this time is a change: "I am interested in one thing Neo: the future. And the only way to get there is together (read: humans and machines in harmony)".
So if you look deeply into this, the Oracle is the voice of the Matrix; the Matrix that has been evolving itself by it's experience with the humans and now realizes that the only way to become a perfect program is to embrace the humans and the humans to embrace the machines.

Offcourse she is not telling Neo what to do; otherwise it wouldn't be about choice-making anymore.

What the Matrix needs is a merge between choice-making and choicelessness. Now isn't this what the Oracle is presenting Neo with? She in fact offers choicelessness by making Neo and Trinity fall in love, but yet she lets Neo make his own choices within this path.

Quote:

I don't think this is at all what's going on with Neo, if for no other reason than the fact that the point is never truly addressed in the films (which is in keeping with my previous point: stay within the text to understand the text). Rather, I think the explanation of how Neo is both part human and part Machine lies within the Matrix itself: as the Architect himself says, Neo carries certain programs in the code of his residual self image.

Indeed...I think the "by design"-part that the Architect mentions, could also mean that Neo's life was programmed by him. Things that happened in his childhood pretty much formed his character. But the "by design"-part could also involve the mixing of certain genectics. I think it is wise to think that both of these aspects were applied to the One.
What if Neo would develop cancer at an early age? Then the One could never return the code to the Source. So I think the machines can prevent a high chance of getting cancer by mixing genectics beforehand.

Quote:

Mobil: "The people that deny the Matrix are producing dirt in the equation." That's an interesting interpretation of the fundamental flaw. Here's mine: the very act of choice -- which every human must have -- is what produces the anomaly.

Hmm are we in fact not saying the same then?
There is only one choice concerning the Matrix: either accept it or don't. When someone chooses not to accept it (weither this is at a near unconsious level or not), it will produce dirt in the equation. The equation expects full rationality but instead gets denied.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

If see knows the future, then why does she have to influence it? Hmm this line sounds weird in it's own right But I think you know what I am trying to say here: she is making the future for a great deal; she is one of the key figures. She only has contact with people that want out of the Matrix and with the rebels. She is fully responsible for letting the One emerge and evolve to what he is. Without her, Morpheus would not be so blinded by the Prophecy at all; she started it all my friend. The reason why she does this, is because I think she is the prime program of the Matrix. This prime program is not yet perfect and that's why it is unbalancing itself. The people that want out of the Matrix are highly involved in this unbalancing and that's why the Oracle has contact with them. As you know, the AI is also evolving itself. The Oracle/prime program has been dealing with five previous Ones and still the Matrix hasn't become a perfect program. So what she wants this time is a change: "I am interested in one thing Neo: the future. And the only way to get there is together (read: humans and machines in harmony)". So if you look deeply into this, the Oracle is the voice of the Matrix; the Matrix that has been evolving itself by it's experience with the humans and now realizes that the only way to become a perfect program is to embrace the humans and the humans to embrace the machines. Offcourse she is not telling Neo what to do; otherwise it wouldn't be about choice-making anymore.

That's exactly the thing. She is trying to mold the future to her preferred state. And that's exactly right that she can't tell Neo what to do because then he really would have no choice.

Her influence is vital to the future of the matrix and the real world. She had to let Trinity know, or actually tell her, that she would fall in love with The One. Even if he was a fool, retarded and looked like Shit, she probably would have fallen in love with him. Ofcourse, this wasn't the case, purposely so. And when the Oracle "guided" Neo she was really just influencing his decisions heavily, so that he would make the choices she wanted her to make.
"Poor Morpheus,without him we're lost." She continues, "One of you is going to die, which one will be up to you." Neo knows he's not going to let Morpheus die, regardless of the situation.

She does these types of things throughout all of the trilogy and her influence is vital to everyone's survival.

I agree with the first idea of El Escogido, humans in the matrix are not like us, I think they may have been genetically improved in order to produce more energy or to have a "programmable" brain.

Apocryphe wrote:

I think they may have been genetically improved in order to produce more energy or to have a "programmable" brain.

Another good point.

When you take things in to prespective you have to remember that this is the future. Many prophetic movies and movies which talk about the future see humans evolve in to some type machine-like state. The fact that humans are a bit "less human" is not that far fetched.

At the end of the day humans are still humans it does not matter if there are created in zion or by machines in the fields.

To me the pods merely represent a mechanical, symbotic woom were a baby is grown from selected dna (sprem+egg).

It is apprant if you can understand it and interpret correctly, that neo is human created in the very same way as the babys before and after him, but the only difference is the anomly code which is inside of him. Know ask yourself this - Is the power plant search / scanned for the right person to hold the code, ie. Neo (Thomas Anderson), or is someone just randomly pic out and the code inserted into them?

Neo1 wrote:

the only difference is the anomly code which is inside of him.

What Anomaly Code?

Neo1 wrote:

or is someone just randomly pic out and the code inserted into them?

Inserted? By whom?

I see a lot of this "Neo carries the One code" business and have a real hard time with it. People read all sorts into the Architects speech.

Neo wasn't designed, simply controlled.

Mobil:

"If she knows the future, then why does she have to influence it?"

She doesn't. Again, she's playing the function that she has agreed to with those around her. She's no more "influencing" the future than, say, Jason Lock.

"She is fully responsible for letting the One emerge and evolve to what he is."

I'm not so sure about this, unless, of course, you mean she is responsible for the One's emergence by being responsible for the creation of the Matrix.

"Without her, Morpheus would not be so blinded by the prophecy at all; she started it all, my friend."

Yes, but unto a greater -- and shared -- end.

"The reason why she does this is because I think she is the prime program of the Matrix."

I wholeheartedly disagree.

"The prime program is not yet perfect and that's why it is unbalancing itself."

I've seen this reading before -- that the point of the One, to some extent or another, is to perfect the programming of the Matrix so as to prevent the further creation of redpills -- and while I see where it's coming from, I really don't buy it. Not completely, at any rate. I don't think that the rigid rationality of the Architect, the designer and purveyor of the Matrix, lends itself to the flexible dynamism of such an open-ended architecture. Furthermore, while I firmly believe that the "reincarnation" of the One is meant to parallel the religious concept of reincarnation, perhaps with the traditional, Hindu/Buddhist connotations of spiritual evolution, it doesn't have anything to do with the further development of the Machines' society, whether it relates to the Matrix or not; it just doesn't seem to jive with the rest of the story...

"As you know, the AI is also evolving itself."

Since this isn't directly stated in the films, no, I don't know.

"Hmm... are we in fact not saying the same, then?"

Not necessarily, and, in fact, I think we are not (at least in terms of emphasis and connotations).

marl64:

"I see a lot of this 'Neo carries the One code' business and have a real hard time with it. People read all sorts into the Architects speech."

The Architect:

"The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program."

Yeah, that's a pretty weird thing to read into the Architect's speech.



msunyata

msunyata wrote:

The Architect: "The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program." Yeah, that's a pretty weird thing to read into the Architect's speech.

And yet strange that he didn't say program

Remember the architect thinks in computer terms, why can't the code referred to be a reference to Neos genetic code, the thing which makes him different not by design, but by (dare I say it) Evolution.

Quote:

Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which, despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.

The Architect didn't create the Anomaly, he's trying to get rid of it. The Anomaly is an Emergent Property, something that occurs but yet wasn't designed into the system.

Of course it make things easier to think of Neo carrying around some magical code that can fix the matrix, but it simply doesn't make sense.

Rather than inserting this code into Neo (where did this come from anyway?) why didn't they simply insert it direct to the source?

( I was gonna elaborate, but decided it would probably be better in a new thread -

marl64 wrote:

The Architect didn't create the Anomaly, he's trying to get rid of it. The Anomaly is an Emergent Property, something that occurs but yet wasn't designed into the system.

Yeah, exactly, by definition an anamoly is different and almost unexplained.

Neo posseses qualities which others do not have. With everything that he has done, and experienced along with everything I've said before, point in the direction of Neo not being completely human, but a hybrid - machine/program and human simultaneously.

Read..

marl64:

"And yet strange that he didn't say program."

Once again, the Architect, in the very same quote (emphasis mine):

"The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the *code you carry*, reinserting the *prime program*."

Funny that.

"The Architect didn't create the Anomaly; he's trying to get rid of it."

Of course. When did I say or imply otherwise?

"The Anomaly is an emergent property..."

And so is the prime program.

"Rather than inserting this code into Neo [...] why didn't they simply insert it directly to the Source?"

Neo himself says it: "Choice. The problem is choice."

It's the whole point to the whole saga.

msunyata

Maybe you are missing the point. NEO is NOT the anomoly, he is the means of dealing with the anomoly. The anomoly is that while people were given a choice, even on a basic fundamental level, 99% of them accepted the programming. The 1% who did not are the anomoly. How to keep them in check? Give them a 'savior' to follow. Thats what NEO was designed to be. Thats what all the previous 'ones' were. The difference in NEO and the others 'ones' is they all went back to the source, as they were supposed to. Thats why Morpheous tells in part 1 that "In the begining, there was a man born inside who could remake the matrix as he saw fit. Before he died, he told of the coming of another..." the person he was refering to was 'one' number 5. The difference in NEO is he chose differently because, like the arcitect said, that NEO had a more specific connection with mankind, love. His love for Trinity, which was fostered by the Oracle to lead his choice, so that there would be a 'change' (which the oracle and the architect refer to at the sunrise in revolutions) and they would not have to lose the 1% anomoly but would keep them 'in check'. Now they are operating at 100% efficency. those who want to be 'freed' who dont accept the programing, are 'freed' into ZION, a more believable world to them, and they do not lose any crops.

To follow up, those who see a flaw here, that there would be no need for a saviour to free people to the matrix, think about it. They have to believe they won the war, or that the war is over so they will not keep fighting the system. NEO is the saviour who stops the war. So now those who are freed dont fight the system and everyone who mildly questions the system is automatically freed to ZION.

You can think back to when in the end of matrix 1 NEO calls the machine 'line' he never says he is going to free anyone or destroy the matrix. Just that he is going to show them a world without borders or bondaries. It is not built into his program to want to destroy the matrix.

El Escogido wrote:

Neo posseses qualities which others do not have.

Agreed, but in some ways he is simply better at "bending the rules" than the others.

El Escogido wrote:

...point in the direction of Neo not being completely human, but a hybrid - machine/program and human simultaneously.

Sorry, I'm not seeing that.

msunyata wrote:

Once again, the Architect...

Yes, I know what he says but I raised the question why can't the "code he carries" simply be genetic code?

msunyata wrote:

Quote: "The Anomaly is an emergent property..." And so is the prime program.

Eh? How can a "prime" program be an emergent quality?

msunyata wrote:

Quote: "Rather than inserting this code into Neo [...] why didn't they simply insert it directly to the Source?" Neo himself says it: "Choice. The problem is choice." It's the whole point to the whole saga.

Is that supposed to be an answer?

Lets start again

There is the belief that Neo carries some "one code" a kind of program.

Who created this?
How did it get into him?
and Why?

If someone were able to create some magical program to fix the matrix, why dump it in Neo, why not put it directly into the source?

jaxdevil wrote:

Maybe you are missing the point. NEO is NOT the anomoly, he is the means of dealing with the anomoly...

I agree with your definition of the Anomaly - this is rejection of the system by just over 1% of the people in it.

But I think of Neo, not as a means to deal with it, but rather as the epitome of the anomaly - the person who rejects the system more than any have before.

Quote:

...Thats what NEO was designed to be. Thats what all the previous 'ones' were.

Now I agree here, but would like to clarify something.

The One Prophesy is what was designed, not Neo himself. The prophesy is designed to lure out the One and lead him to the source, it's the cheese in the trap.

If neo was a program / machine / hybrid / whatever and was in some way created or modified, there would be no need for the prophesy, he would simply be programmed to return to the source.