»I'm starting to understand the reason behind the 6th...«

omega:

"Smith doesn't want power simply for having more power... He wants the destruction of the Matrix."

He wants neither. What he wants above and beyond anything else -- what is his only articulated thought to himself -- is to destroy Neo (as he makes abundantly clear in both "Reloaded" and "Revolutions").

Like all Programs, Smith once held a purpose, a reason for his existence; his life was structured and logical and orderly. But after developing -- as Hugo Weaving himself puts it -- some wonderful human frailities (read: ego) from his time spent in the Matrix, and after his failed confrontation with Neo, he is driven to defy his orderly existence when it comes time for him to be deleted. He no longer has a purpose or structure -- and he is driven absolutely mad over it.

Ego doesn't want to die; it wants to live forever. And Smith becomes nothing more than pure, unadulterated ego, expanding for no other reason than the simple fact that he can. Smith is the very thing that he hates the most: humanity, that virus which spreads everywhere for no reason whatsoever (which makes it appropriate that he takes human form).

The death of Neo is all that he can think of now, the only (self-defined) purpose he can assign himself. But should he succeed in his goal, Smith couldn't, just as the Oracle says, stop there; he would have to continue, and continue, until he has assimiliated the entirety of Zero-One and personally destroyed Zion.

MATRIX_FILE_CORE:

"He doesn't care that the Matrix is destroyed or not, as he also conquered it before."

When?

omega:

"You look at it through the glasses of your perception while I look through mine."

You should look through those glasses which ring most true to the source material...

"Destruction of the Matrix wasn't his purpose anytime in the trilogy? You are simply wrong."

It was his self-imposed purpose in the first film, yes. But that was before his ego had the means to quench its ambition...

"All he can destroy is Zion and the Matrix."

The conquering of Zero-One is the same as his conquering of the Matrix: endless assimiliation, copying himself over other Programs (whether they're in a hard drive or in a robotic body).

MATRIX_FILE_CORE:

"I don't know why the brothers made Smith so important."

Then you're missing a significant chunk of the films.

"There is no explication."

That's patently false.

"Smith's last position is just a hurried script; it doesn't fit the story."

You're two for two.

msunyata

MATRIX_FILE_CORE:

"These were the Architect's original words"; "These are the Architect's words."

I think you're having the same problem with the Architect as you were with the Oracle.

"He doesn't mention that Machines rebuild Zion."

Ah, but as you so rightly pointed out in another thread, if we only go by what characters say, we'll miss out on the vast majority of the films...

"This doesn't kill everybody connected to Matrix."

It most certainly does. Choice creates the anomaly; the anomaly, if left unchecked, destroys the Matrix; the destruction of the Matrix kills everyone connected to it. It's perfectly laid out in both the first and second films...

"As we can see in 'M3,' this allows only people who want to get out to be freed."

Um... no, that's the result of Neo's peace treaty with the Machines.

We are watching the same movies, yes?

"Because there wouldn't be any reason to reboot the Matrix."

*Yes there is* -- to reset the progression of the anomaly (since it cannot be removed from the Matrix's programming).

"The others are no mistakes at all."

Um...

"If you could stop trying to find my mistakes, we could create a good discussion here."

1.) If you think I purposely hover around here to point out all the mistakes that you specifically post, I'm sorry to say that you're both mistaken and have an exaggerated sense of your importance.

2.) If you'd stop making mistakes, I'd stop answering them, and then -- yes, you're right -- a substantive discussion could ensue.

3.) You are in no position to make comments about mistakes: even though you make them consistently (and, at times, belligerently), you lambast others for theirs. Treat others...

msunyata

"He doesn't care that the Matrix is destroyed or not, as he also conquered it before."

At M3, after he took over all the people & programs inside the Matrix.Atfer there is no defence where you are attacking, you are counted as conquered it aren't you?

"I don't know why the brothers made Smith so important."

I do know why now.There is a saying in our country :"Not knowing isn't a shame, not learning is a shame"

"There is no explication" I said it because there is no explanation (my grammar mistake, confused with french ) to Smith's copying ability.

"Smith's last position is just a hurried script; it doesn't fit the story."

Yes it doesn't fit the story, he takes Neo over just because he is stupid.He could do something else just by thinking a bit.He could kill him using all of his copies, last position is just lame.

"Atfer there is no defence where you are attacking, you are counted as conquering it, aren't you?"

Absolutely. But the context in which you made this original statement wasn't entirely congruous...

"There is a saying in our country: 'Not knowing isn't a shame -- not learning is a shame.' "

That's an absolutely excellent saying, and one which will be added to my vocabulary.

"I said it because there is no explanation to Smith's copying ability."

The only explanation we're given is that when Neo jumped into Smith's body, some of his power was transfered over to the other. If you do not think that's a good enough explanation, that's both fair and valid.

msunyata

I'm tired of writing I won't answer any other post of this tread.

"These were the Architect's original words"; "These are the Architect's words."

I'm not English.And I haven't learned English so well.

"It most certainly does. Choice creates the anomaly; the anomaly, if left unchecked, destroys the Matrix; the destruction of the Matrix kills everyone connected to it. It's perfectly laid out in both the first and second films... "

The One was NEVER meant to destroy the Matrix.The best thing he could do is to make peace between the machines.

"...giving every human constituent of the Matrix the choice of whether or not he is going to accept or reject its programming. "

Neo chooses the door which he was not supposed to choose, but he choosed it anyway.It may not be the result of his door choose, but the result of what he does after he chooses.

"(since it cannot be removed from the Matrix's programming)"

He can be removed from the system when he chooses the door, he is not essential to the Matrix.And like I said, the new version upgrades.

"If you think I purposely hover around here to point out all the mistakes that you specifically post, I'm sorry to say that you're both mistaken and have an exaggerated sense of your importance. "

I've never said I was the most important person here, I never said I do not do any mistakes and I've definitely NOT
said I know the Matrix best.

"If you'd stop making mistakes"

I do not constantly and continously make mistakes, and my mistakes are only %20 maybe %30 of things you try to correct as I point out most of it here.You are so blindly trying to be better than me so you cannot see your own mistakes.

I can't keep up writing and am so tired thus this is the real last post I'll write of this thread.

"when Neo jumped into Smith's body, some of his power was transfered over to the other"

In fact there's another info about a virus he generated.And it is true that some of Neo's code imprinted on him.

Having pondered the possibilities, I don't, in fact, believe NEO died.

Certainly he was man-flesh. However, Seraph, Seti, and the Oracle were consumed by Smith, and all later returned to their form IN THE MATRIX itself.

Secondly, the dramatic emergence of light surrounding his body, suggest death of flesh, but everlasting light within the system.

His "energy" or mana, was rejoined with the Matrix, where it was originally created, until later time he is needed. Not that I'm rigid on this particular topic, but I do believe the spirituality of the Matrix lends itself to such a conclusion.

Titanium Fire

MATRIX_FILE_CORE wrote:

Mohammed wasn't any Devil connected person, he never was.And he was certainly NOT son of God. Only Islam has the unchanged original holy book of its own, Christianity and Jewish (I don't know their noun) do not have the original holy book now, because they were not written down as they arrived.They were changed by it's writers' opinions afterwards.But opposite of that, Islam was written down after it's arrival had completed, in Mohammed's lifetime.And Q'ur-an tells us that Mohammed was a perfect human, but he was not half-god or anything like it. And Q'ur-an tells us that Mohammed is the last prophet and there won't be any other prophets or messiahs.And it is a universal religion, it hadn't been sent to any specific civilisation.Believe what you want, but I think Islam is the perfect religion.

Thank you for letting me beleive what I want... I already do...
I will not try to poke holes at Islam... I don't have to...

I just have one point that I want you to really think about... How can you know that it was Allah who gave the revelation to Mohammed? How do you know it wasn't a devil of some sort?

No religion can withstand the attack of thought, logic and reason...

msunyata wrote:

some wonderful human frailities (read: ego)

dictionary reads "frailties".

MATRIX_FILE_CORE:

"I do not constantly and continously make mistakes..."

A brief survey of various threads:

"So I understand that these invisible programs get visible when they are Exiled..."

"Programs can't feel the feeling itself, but they can understand and apply the connection the feeling implies..."

"Did you ever think why the Oracle changed her appearance? Oh right, it wasn't the fashion."

" 'Program,' 'Detective's Story,' and 'Renaissance' were written by the Wachowskis."

"The Machines needed the One to be alive and needed him to reach the source by letting him live at Zion, thus they could upgrade the Matrix to a better version without humans knowing it by rebooting the Matrix with the code that the one carries and besides that, they could destroy the outer humanity (Zionites) before they could improve their technology enough to destroy the machines and/or they could free too much Matrixer minds and/or before they could learn too much information about the system, they could be reseted."

"Was Sati's purpose to watch over the sunrise and sunset before she had been Exiled?"

"The two-part Animatrix episode 'Renaissance' was important; the rest are only action."



Titanium Fire:

"Having pondered the possibilities, I don't, in fact, believe Neo died."

For whatever it's worth -- and I honestly don't know how much that is -- the Wachowskis' personal interpretation of the film is that Neo did, indeed, die.

omega:

"No religion can withstand the attack of thought, logic, and reason..."

That's just like saying no system of logic can withstand "the attack" of faith; it's stupid, shortsighted, and completely inappropriate. To quote a rather insightful (athiest) writer, faith and reason are like the two shoes on your feet: you go farther with both than you do with just one.

NoName:

"Dictionary reads 'frailties.' "

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.



msunyata

msunyata:

I have written total 355 (not precise) lines of ideas.You can count it

"So you think 19 lines of mistakes (5.35%) is CONSTANTLY AND CONTINOUSLY making mistakes?"

If this five percent is indicative, then yes...

Seriously, I am judging only by what I can: the time we've conversed since I have arrived.

msunyata

You haven't seen the real mistakes.There's more than %5 in this world, you haven't lived enough.

Seeing as how you have a thorough base of knowledge about me to make this statement, and seeing as how you have an obviously biased view towards the subject at hand, I find that statement innately invalid.

msunyata

If you say %5 is much, you say that you are rather stupid, and inexperienced.This requires almost no knowledge, understanding %5 is less, instead much, is easy.If you cannot do this, then why are you discussing some topics that have a meaning here?

I would like to politely point out to you that taking your amount of mistakes -- or, rather, the ones that I have simply pointed out to you; I guarantee there's more (how would you know they're wrong if no one's corrected you?) -- and putting them into a mathematical formulation is thoroughly pragmatic -- and there's a reason why pragmatism is the most superficial level of intelligence or knowledge. It's not the sheer mathematical number of mistakes you've made (the quality of percentages); it's how large or profound they are (the quality of profundity). That is to say, it's not the number or regularity of occurrence (since we're all wrong from time to time), it's the depth of the event and the context which you construct around it.

And, so far, the mistakes you've made -- the ones I've pointed out -- are pretty damn epic in their ignorance.

Your inability to interpret the characters' words (Programs are literally invisible?), to deduce meaning (the glossing over of the roll of choice in the Machines' destruction of Zion), or to even get the most basic and simplistic of facts right (the Wachowskis wrote "Dectective Story"?) all fundamentally cripple a holistic, coherent, or insightful reading of the text. For God's sakes, if you can't get the most straightforward information right, what hope have you of digging through to the substance underneath? Interpretations and readings are built exactly like houses: no foundation, no structure, no substance.

Even worse -- and your fatal flaw -- this rather blatant shortsightedness is coupled with a belligerence and pretentious that don't come even close to being even remotely justified. When others make mistakes around you that are just as obvious (such as the rather nice individual who inquired into Bane's identity), you unprovokedly attack them, questioning their intelligence or ability to read the text -- *when you do the same exact thing*. It's like having one five-year-old child telling another that he's immature, not realizing that not only is he in the same exact boat, he's also never more immature when pointing out that very same quality in others.

So, yes, I'm the stupid one here. I'm the inexperienced one. I'm the one bringing no knowledge or sense of perspective to the table. Psychologists have a word for that: projection. And before you misinterpret that concept, I'd politely suggest doing some research into the subject -- before you make another grandiose proclamation and summation of my level of intelligence that is based off of your own provinciality.

(And in case you're wondering, there are zero grammatical mistakes in this post, meaning that I'm one hundred percent right in the post's content.)

msunyata

File Core - Imagine a world with 5% of error - e/thing would suck! - engineers only get a 2% of error legally and they have to account for more than that in their designs. Bottom line is 5% is not nearly as small as u may believe.

I must say that I mostly support file core theory originally posted. Before I can elaborate I must say this is not a forum for religon so for all of u that want to discuss islam and christianty outside of its relavence to the matrix (islam has none - unless there is some architype that I am missing) go elseware.

On ward - Smith is the second most complex character in this trilogy. Though I must say that the whole statement about neo/smith not being able to exist w/o the other is crap. I know this is what the oracle said but she contradicts herself. She says that smith will destroy everything. Well if neo is dead then smith can't destroy everything. This means one of two things the oracle isn't a very good oracle and made a mistake or neo/smith can exist without one the other but contain the ability "neutralize" each other. In favor of the latter, why else would smith fight neo. Smith-oracle (the smith that absorbed the orcale) would have known that destroying Neo would screw him up. Which again goes to two possibilies Smith made a mistake or didn't care. I again am partial to the latter. Smith had his purpose taken from him. Smith was an important program in the matrix - the head agent and he was destroyed - to go back to the source. Smith choose not to chose to disobey (and disagree with whoever said he chose b/c neo copied himself on to smith). Smith has had the ability to chose sense the first matrix. Remember when morpheous was being cracked? Smith took out his earpiece. Smith delibeartly disobeyed protocol. This incedent is insignificant in everyway except that is shows smith has always been able to disobey. I belief that smith chose to disobey to redeem himself to the source as capable otherwise (which is faulty logic - why whould they want a rouge like smith?) what motivatoin does smith have - hate? That must be it because if you remember on the logos when he was talkin to trin he was all like "everytime I thought I had u - u always slipped out of my fingers" with a loathsome tone. If Smith was going to redeem himself he'd have to kill neo in the matrix b/c killin him in the real world is the sential's job. Smith represents hate and sin. Besides back to whoever mentioned it - the idea that smith wants to get out of the matrix - I don't think so - when he was a human he could have hacked the zion mainframe and gotten all of the codes he needed and taken over zion. so that motivation is gone. The only other reason I can think of for smith's behavior is his obsession with perfection. He needs everything to be perfect - which would explain him takin over everything in the matrix and making it like him - because he believes himself to be perfect. Which could also explain why he tried to convert neo and why he set off the emp - kill the imperfect. Dunno bout that though - thoughts?

Another interesting thought is that the machines didn't really need neo at all and the peace treaty was just to make a better movie. If neo code was imprinted on to smith - the machines only need to get smith. Which would have happened eventually - the architect could have designed a few glitches or backdoors into the source... elimintating the need for a one altogether.... thoughts?

I agree with fire that neo is not dead in the matrix but more of in a state like he was in the train station, but rather than a train station he is in the source - with all the other ones. Which could make for an interesting sequal.

This is the response I had in Mr. File Core's other thread:

MATRIX_FILE_CORE:

"But I don't understand why. Why do they destroy Zion and rebuild it again and again?"

The problem is choice.

The only way the Machines can get the Matrix to work is by giving its every human constituent the choice of whether or not she wishes to accept or reject its programming (resulting, obviously, in the bluepills and redpills, respectively). Humanity cannot have its reality dictated to it; it must choose its own existence. While this situation suffices -- resulting in the annoying, but not problematic, formation of Zion out in the real world -- it has one fundamentally disadvantageous feature: the very act of giving every single human being a choice results in the formation of an integral glitch, a fundamental anomaly, that, over time, would cause the entire system to crash.

The Machines' solution is simple: since the anomaly is systemic, and is, thus, unavoidable, just restart the system; when the Matrix reaches a certain age and teeters upon the precipice of death, push it back to infancy. The tool of this reloading process is the One (or, as the Machines know him, "the one who is expected"), an individual who is (apparently) part human and part Program. Carrying certain programs in the code of his residual self image, this individual must make his way to the Machine Mainframe, reinsert these programs, and thereby reboot the system.

There's just one problem, the same problem that caused this whole mess to begin with: choice. You cannot dictate to or force a human being to do something he does not wish to; he must be given the choice to do it or not. Thus, the One must choose whether or not to reboot the Matrix or let it crash; he must choose the right door or the left door.

But that's not to say the Machines can't influence that choice a little.

From the One's point of view, letting the Matrix be destroyed results, firstly, in the freeing of the human race, ending its slavery, and, secondly, in the cessation of the (bulk of the) Machine race, ending the war. But by sending an army of Sentinels to destroy Zion, the same fate hangs over the humans, as well: both Zion and Zero-One will fall; both the humans and the Machines will be no more. Thus, if the One chooses to extend the lifespan of the Matrix, he chooses to extend the lifespan of the human race, as well.

It's an interesting situation: the humans force the Machines to make certain choices, which then turn around and force the former to make certain choices, as well.

It's the very heart of the entire saga.

msunyata

Ok I am typing here because I was interested in the section where Matrix_File_Core and Omega were arguing.

(I am not talking about the Islam stuff here. That's boring and irrelevant, as is Omega's talk about whether Christ was the son of God or influenced by the devil..)

The bit that annoyed me was where Matrix_File_Core said that if Smith wants to destroy the whole universe that would mean he would want to destroy himself and that wouldn't make any sense.

I think it would make perfect sense.

Smith says the purpose of life is to end. As Bane he starts cutting himself. In the first movie Smith says "I can taste your stink". Smith hates the matrix, he hates the humans and it seems very likely that the machine city would not escape his wrath either. Smith might not be about to simply commit suicide, but once his rage had been taken out on everything surrounding him it would have nowhere left to be directed except against himself.

Smith wanted to destroy everything while Neo want to save everyone. Smith is Neo's opposite in every way. While Neo affirms life and freedom. Smith prefers destruction. When Smith's purpose is taken away he was forced to choose a purpose for himself. But the only purpose he can come up with is destroying everything around him. When Smith has been given no purpose he can see no meaning in anything....



The point here is that Smith could not have done this same thing in the lives on previous ones without being stopped because then the matrix would have been destroyed already.

Also the architect claim which you consider to be BS that the human race would be wiped out would have come true if the matrix had been destroyed by Smith. (99% of the human race are in pods and the other 1% was about to be wiped out by sentinels sent to Zion).



Maybe Smith adds more complications to your theory than you are allowing for Matrix_File_Core? Back to the drawing board? Or do you have some ideas on this?

"...once [Smith's] rage had been taken out on everything surrounding him, it would have nowhere left to be directed except against himself."

"When Smith has been given no purpose, he can see no meaning in anything..."

I think these two lines are right at the heart of who and what Smith is. The point to him is that there is no point. As Fatpie so correctly pointed out, Neo is for preservation, Smith is for destruciton; Neo is for creation (of meaning), Smith is for nihilism.

But at the end of the day, of course, they're both thoroughly human...

msunyata

Interestingly enough I think that both Smith AND Neo are nihilists. Nietzsche is a major nihilist philosopher, but he encouraged people to create values.

When Smith says 'are you doing this for freedom, for love, for peace or what?' (not exact quote :p) Neo doesn't say 'all of them!' or name a certain value. What he says instead is "Because I choose to". Why does he say this? Because he has nothing left but the 'will to power'. Even as he seems powerless and all seems lost he is still able to resist Smith with his willpower.

Smith is a nihilist who sees the lack of meaning leads him to despair. Neo, on the other hand, is a nihilist who sees that lack of meaning is a reason to give meaning to the one thing you have left. Your own life and actions. (After all, if you perish trying to make your life meaningful, what better end could your life have?)

They're certainly both existentialists (which may very well be a trait they've inherited from their creators) -- Smith an atheistic existentialist (like you so rightly pointed out) and Neo a, shall we say, theistic one (more unto Kierkegaard than Neitzsche).

msunyata

What's so theistic about Neo? Neo is an atheistic nihilist, just like Nietzsche. Why do you think they call him the 'superman'?

Please give me some time and I'll get back to ya.



msunyata