»I would love for the MiM theory to be true«

I would love for the theory to be true...
Then the movie would be a real representation of this world...

I recommend everyone to read George Orwell's 1984...
and Animal Farm too...

What, no opinions?

It almost seems that people need for Zion to exist... The last island of resistance in the sear of evil machines... The ultimate utopian fantasy...

Why do people need for this city to exist? Does the movie have a hidden message? Maybe there is a certain city on this planet which is the Zion... (duh). Which is fighting "evil"... Maybe people need to see the movie and experience the urge to move to that city...

I don't know...

All I know is that Zion is a prison...

Some people see Zion as a prison, hence the MwM theory.

On the other hand, I see the MwM theory as a prison for those who believe in it. While they see us "those who see Zion as 'real world'" as trapped in a need or longing for Zion to be real, I see this theory as a need or urge to fight all things that ask you to go beyond absolute knowledge and scientific truth, even if only slightly.

The way I see it, the Matrix was never about being able to explain away or describe anything fully. Even the Oracle professes that while she may know the future, or 'know everything', she really doesn't know EVERYTHING. Nor can she explain anything she doesn't already understand.

That's how I see the MwM theory. Trying to understand something that we perhaps shouldn't really be able to, at least not fully. If we can simply explain away Neo's powers, etc., in the real world as just another computer simulation... then sigh... I guess we can know and predict everything we see in these movies.

Infinite prisons lead to infinite abilities to predict, fail, and repeat. All the time.

In other words, I think you're in denial.

doctor,

Denial? Denial of what? Truth? What is truth?

I stand by my opinion that Zion is a prison... Once you are in it - you can't escape.. You have to slave for the system and listen to all those dorks who are in charge... Plus you have to eat crap, wear rags and listen to a lunatic...
You can't escape... There is nowhere to go... Untill you die, or if you are lucky, machines will kill you...

See it from this perspective...

Zion is a prison, just like a matrix is...

If that were the truth... then this entire movie, once again, is a worthless exercise in dreary human defeat and loss. It means that nothing Neo or anyone else did had any meaning. Because the whole time they were lab rats. And someone was simply torturing them inside and out into these acts.

It means that all of the lines exchanged, regardless of how corny or over-the-top they may be, are also useless. "Because I choose to." That gets a musical cue in the movie. And yet, there'd be no point in giving musical cue for Neo when he reveals this line in the final Smith battle if in the end he wasn't even really choosing.

In addition, why waste time with special effects for Neo's death, and all that time creating grand music in the process, if the point you were trying to get across was that Neo and the rest are just stuck in a mind game prison the entire time.

Yes, I know it is reasonable to argue, from a storyline point of view, that all the amazing out of Matrix stunts you see with Neo is proof of another Matrix. Just like I was able to simply view his acts as something beyond the rational and purely explainable, regardless of how many times people have discussed Mobil Ave. to death in an attempt to rationalize it fully (though I always appreciate reading said arguments).

However, I would argue that if you look outside of the film, i.e. don't immerse yourself in the story for just a minute, and simply look at the technical side of things, or the constructiong of the film (i.e. musical cues, lighting, close-ups, tone, etc.) that there is no evidence whatsoever that supports the idea that humanity just fought a futile and useless effort. If you're still in prison, unknowingly in fact, which was the premise of the first film... then you've never moved from the first film. Which makes the other two films a pointless exercise, given the technical way things were done.

You get my point pretty well...

I recommend again you read George Orwell's 1984...
The hero of that story also fights the system only to realise at the very end that all of his friends and allies were system agents leading him to defeat...

Zion was as much of a creation of the Architect and oracle as it was a creation of humans...

the only person in the film that seems to see this is cypher,as we have mentioned before. smith,also seems to be looking for more 'freedom'. i believe the most important aspects of the films have been covered up and coated.

I never figured out why does Smith feels this way...
He gives his whole speach about viruses, smells, zoos and prisons...
But there is obviously something that separates him from other agents and programs, which makes him think this way... I wonder what it is...

It is also interesting that he tells his story to Morpheus, because Morpheus was the one who told his side of the story to Neo.
It is as though he wants Morpheus to see this world for what it really is, but morpheus is too high on drugs at the moment...

in reloaded zee gave link the chain with a cross on it.
in reloaded we see humans in zion that look like hindus,buddhists and various other 'religious sects'.
in animatrix we see buddhists as well as a christian evangelist on the tv but in the films there is no mention of the word "god' used by anyone in relation to being saved.
all of those people in zion were free from the matrix but what about free from the 'real world'.
its obvious that there was a need for 'religion' or 'truth' before and during the war and not just the truth to escape the matrix.
so whats beyond the 'real world' in the films?

Neo is the god of the Zion... Did you see all those humans yearning for his blessing?

Humans created god because they need him... They need to beleive in some truth... Some fantasy... Some fairy tale...

Religion also pulls a blanket over your eyes in order to prevent you from seeing what this world really is... Just like the matrix...

Religion is a way to stop you from doing anything with your life... Why act now, if you are going to be reincarnated later? Why act now, if there is God's kingdom just around the corner?

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I never figured out why does Smith feels this way... He gives his whole speach about viruses, smells, zoos and prisons...

This is a good point. Smith is the most enigmatic character in the series. Clearly, he has "knowledge" of what is going on. And he reveals some of it in M1. Then a little more in M2 with his "purpose" speech. But by M3 he has been reduced to a killing machine.

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But there is obviously something that separates him from other agents and programs, which makes him think this way... I wonder what it is...

The easy answer is that he is the other part of the unbalanced equation, blah blah blah. But that's too easy. Where Smith seemed to be heading was that the machine AI is now facing its own rebellion from within, as the programs got too intelligent.

Now there's a real story in this sort of thing, but it was never explored in M2 or M3 as (again) they were too busy with car chases.

Gnostic wrote:

This is a good point. Smith is the most enigmatic character in the series. Clearly, he has "knowledge" of what is going on. And he reveals some of it in M1. Then a little more in M2 with his "purpose" speech. But by M3 he has been reduced to a killing machine.

Yes he is reduced to a killing machine - he becomes human!
Neo is a killing machine too... How many people did he kill by shooting and killing people in the matrix?

One issue is that the Zion characters never raise the obvious question: "Is Zion itself another level of the Matrix?" You would think that at the start of M3, when Neo shows his "realworld" powers, someone would say, "Wait a minute here--could it be that we are still in the Matrix?"

But no...

The obvious and logical reactions for the characters to the strangest situations are not there. Even if Zion is the real world (and I have no reason to doubt that it is otherwise), the characters are still trapped by their own lack of curiosity. They still all act as if they are programmed.

Now, compare this situation with Total Recall and eXistenZ. In both of these movies, characters question if the "level" they are on is the real world. At least the idea occurs to them. The failure of the Matrix characters to do the same creates a sort of dream-like quality to the film, as if they are all programmed.

Another idea is that maybe the world of the Matrix is the real world. Zion is the construct. A plot line they might have explored is that people who live within the Matrix think that Neo and the Zionites (Zionians?) are insane. So there is a mass persecution of the rebels within the Matrix coming not from the Agents but from the average pod-person. As with most people today, those who see a different reality are a threat to the herd.

One is reminded of the Star Trek: the Next Generation episode where Commander Ryker finds himself in an insane asylum which alternates with a stage play.

..its seems obvious that the human race 'called forth' the intelligence that created the matrix for a purpose unknown to both 'species'. this is really never mentioned in the films and deserves some inquiry.

don juan matus says(castanedas book):
"The flyers(parasitic energy force) are an essential part of the universe and they must be taken as what they really are;awesome, monstrous. They are the means by which the universe tests us."
"We are energetic probes created by the universe, and it's because we are possessors of energy that has awareness that we are the means by which the universe becomes aware of itself. The flyers are the implacable challengers. They cannot be taken as anything else. If we succeed in doing that, the universe allows us to continue."

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Neo is a killing machine too... How many people did he kill by shooting and killing people in the matrix?

When Neo flies to rescue Trinity at the end of M2, look at all the cars that get wrecked -- and how many people died there? Some savior!

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don juan matus says(castanedas book):

At the start of M1, when Neo is selling the disc to the punk/goth guy at his door, the punk/goth guy mentions mescaline which, I believe, is related to the Castanedas books. i.e., higher states of consciousness which reveal the true/alternative nature of the universe.

omega wrote:

Neo is the god of the Zion... Did you see all those humans yearning for his blessing? Humans created god because they need him... They need to beleive in some truth... Some fantasy... Some fairy tale...

FIRST of all, Neo isn't the 'God' of Zion....He is the Jesus....the savior. God isn't a savior. God is a creator.

It's no surprise to me that Morpheus sounds like the name Moses. I believe that this is an obvious biblical parallel....and to back my point even more, Moses led the Isrealites out of Egypt....Morpheus led many Matrix prisoners out of the Matrix.

Trinity represents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinity gives Neo hope by way of LOVE....She represents the reason why humans want to keep on living, and love is the reason why Neo took the door on the left. Love is a connection that blinded Neo so much that he became totaly ignorant of the basis of human logic: Time. Love made him BELIEVE he could save her, and he did save her.

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It's no surprise to me that Morpheus sounds like the name Moses.

"Morpheus" is the Greek god of dreams. Considering that the names the Zion characters have are obviously self-chosen hacker "monikers", this is rather interesting. Why does Morpheus call himself this? He makes a point of asking Neo if he has ever had a dream that he was sure was real.

Another way to look at this: "Morpheus" implies "morphing", or change.

Gnostic,

Yes, mescaline is mentioned a lot of times in the teachings of Castaneda

And, my god, they kill people in the matrix left and right...

"big" mista,
Jesus is worshiped by some losers in the movie - that kinda makes him the worship deity - god...
He doesn't have much power outside of matrix though...
Morpheus doesn't sound lkie moses... Its name is much much older than Jewish legend is...

So Neo saved her, only for trinity to die a little later... Movie proves that his decision was wrong...

"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everything drops to zero" - Fight Club

Neo wasn't "wrong" about anything. He believed he could save her, and he did. However, she died LATER ON because she had to. She had to die so Neo's purpose wouldn't be eclipsed by love. Neo was 'The One' and he needed to love the entire human race more than Trinity in order for their survival. That is why she died.

He loved humans so much... That they are still chillin' back at the powerplant...

Yes, they are. But aren't we supposed to realize that the Matrix is the only way humans can survive by the end of the movie?

Like the Architect said, the machines were prepared to accept other levels of survival, which would have resulted in the extinction of the entire human race. But they gave the humans a chance. They gave Neo a chance.