»So how old is the Matrix? Or were the humans ever free?«

Recently I was thinking about the trilogy and I have some thoughts that I would like to intelligently discuss with you. However, I must warn you, the discussion requires an open mind... Anyone being stubborn or simply stupid is asked please not to post replies...

The question that I am thinking about relates to the words spoken by the Architect, saying that "Matrix is older than you think" and his whole speach about the 6 times Zion was destroyed... He could have lied but...
Merovingian is also "from the older version of the Matrix"... So at least some of this is true and these ideas clearly contradict what Morpheus was saying about "100 years" of Zion fighting the machines, blah, blah, blah...

So how old is the matrix 1000 years old? 2000? 3000? Or more?
Was humanity ever free?

Morpheus obviously doesn't know... Oracle won't tell... Merv will mess with your mind... Architect hard to reach...

Intelligent posts are welcome!

I don't know how acurate this is but Morpheus does suggest, like you said, that it is about 100 years old when he says that they think they are around the year 2199. But then again, that would be about 100 years from the fifth One.
Then the architect says that the machines had become more efficient at destroying Zion every time. So that means that the first time Zion was destroyed it took a bit over 100 years. How much longer, who knows?
So if you put these two thoughts together and do the math it would seem that from the time of the first matrix, up to the sixth would be 500 years, at least. And adding this to the time when the machines imprisoned humans, and the time it took to develop the matrix, it would be between 500 - 600 years after the machines defeated the humans.
That's what I think, and I hope it helps.

You have calculation algorithm down all right.
The only variable with which I have a problem, not because of you, but because of Morpheus, is 100 years timeline. I am not sure about his timeline and his whole speach about 100 of years of war with machines...
Judging by technology in Zion, it took them a lot longer to develop that level of technology...

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Unfortunately that's all the information we have. I guess we'll have to work with that.

But also, Morpheus might not be off by too much because if the person who freed him was the previous One, then that person would have an idea as to when Zion was rebuilt. So maybe Morpheus is more acurate that we think.

I agree...
But how many years or centuries would it take to develop technology in Zion to such a level (without the help of the machines)?

i'd say there have been previous versions of the matrix for almost as long as humans exist, but they were not build by machines. so morpheus' assumption that the rebels are fighting the machines for around 100 years may be near the truth. previous versions of the matrix had other fetishes [god(s), religion, ghosts, all the mystic conceptions that people believed in at former times...] they worked as blind forces that governed mankind, instead of mankind governing themselfes. people don't understand their own powers, at least they cannot control them. so they project them on something other.. golden calf like. in our time the machines (the econmic system, globalization, market, ware etc..) have become the main fetish.

Humans used to be free, when they were primitive primates... They could remain free and risk extinsion or loose their freedom and have a pretty good shot on surviving... They gradually lost freedom throughout the history, but it really accelerated 2000 years ago when Rome invaded a little and insignificant province of Palestine...

Humanity had a chance to evolve during the 19th century, but it failed... So many great minds were born during that period, but stupid humans would not listen...

-------------------------------
: )

You led me to an interesting thought...
If we listen to Morpheus and his flock, then it is the machines who built the matrix. But it looks like the programs control both humans and machines... So programs are in control, not the machines...

Zionists fight machines, but the programs are the ones in control...
Looks like the humans are fighting the wrong enemy...

That's an interesting thought.

Lamarrkx wrote:

i'd say there have been previous versions of the matrix for almost as long as humans exist, but they were not build by machines.

I like this idea!

I think Morpheus' timeline is intentionally ambiguous for two reasons.

First, neither Morpheus nor anyone really knows what the chronological date is or how long the war has been going on. To know, they would either have to be that old (which, unless there is some immortality juice in the protein goop cannot be Morpheus' situation), or, they are relying on information recorded and passed down to them. If the Matrix teaches us anything it is that relying on what you see, or think you know, is incredibly dangerous and might lead you down the wrong path. This, I think, could be one reason for Morpheus basically saying "I don't know" when he's telling Neo what year it is.

Second, the problem, once again, is choice. Choice has enslaved humans ever since we became aware we had choice. Perhaps this is the eternal Matrix that Lamarrkx was referencing. Let me explain:

Choice, by its very definition, requires an act of deliberation. We are given two options and by some method of rational, irrational or insitictive investigation we choose a course of action. If we have made a choice, then we have not acted completely randomly.

These investigations are framed by the paradigms which are given to us or which we discover for ourselves. In the case of a rational investigation we use logical rules, in the case of irrational investigation we rely on emotional responses which, to some extent, have become 'normal' for us in our specific situations. Even instinctual investigations require us to respond given certain environmental and physical norms.

However, these investigations by no means automatically encapsulate ALL possibilities. When presented with a choice there are some solutions which we just automatically rule out because we believe they aren't logical (according or our logical rules) or don't fit the environment, or are not an emotion we have ever experienced.

For instance, it is hard to imagine a Medieval peaseant choosing to become an atheist when presented with evidence that the early Catholic church failed to save their harvest. It's just not in the framework.

Therefore, while choice seems to be the stuff freedom is made out of (i.e., free will) it is also always limited by our particular paradigms. By our own subjective "Matrices" if you will.

So, when Morpheus gives us a timeline that seems to unspecificable, perhaps he (and the Brothers) are really just hinting that the Matrix has always existed in one form or another. In the movies it is an interactive computer simulation, but before the machines took over (whenever that was) The Matrix was inside all of us, in every choice we made and every decision we undertook.

Whew, first post done. *Goes back to lurking*

Everyone assume that the previous reloads took 100 years too. This is not necessary true. It seems that this version of the anomaly is very powerfull and different from the previous ones.

Since the anomaly is related to the number of people who refused the program, we could tell that this version was much longer than the others.

My feeling is that the previous reloads occured every 20 years (the first script said that the matrix was occuring between 1980 and 2000). But with Neo, they had to change the datum of the Matrix several times without seeing a single "One", wich is why Neo is so powerfull now.

Thus, I think that the Matrix is around 200 years old.

I just don't think 20 years is enough time for a "civilization" to be built, like Zion.

I agree that this is probably the most advanced stage Zion has probably reached, but think about what the Architect said. He said that, with regards to Zion, "it will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it." This suggests to me that previous times the machines had destroyed Zion a lot easier, and that although the rebels resisted many attacks from the machines it was still faster than previous versions of the matrix.

Another thing that makes me believe this is that there has to be enough time and influence for others to learn about the One. If it would have taken 20 years to destroy the 5th version of the matrix, then Morpheus and those of his generation would not have known about the previous One. And those who sit on the council (who you can tell are noticeably physically older than anyone else in Zion) would not be alive.

Think about it.

re: Decarwest

Choice again...
I seem to chare the views of the Mirovingian on this subject:

Choice is an illusion created between thosewith power and those without...
Zionists have no power - they do what they are told...

well, you just have to take the evidence you do have and rip it apart.

The councillors were all liberated by the one, when this matrix started.

they posibly werent as old as Neo, since this is an unorthodox age for freeing humans.

I guess it's about 30-40 years for each....

also, I dont think they'd build zion from the ground up; the councillors do know the truth, so they probably just rebuild the parts the last squid raid demolished.

Also...if the last one chose them to rebuild a civilization, they're probably geniuses in each of their own fields, so they'd be pretty good at rebuilding whatever they have to rebuild

Cherub wrote:

also, I dont think they'd build zion from the ground up; the councillors do know the truth, so they probably just rebuild the parts the last squid raid demolished.

That can't be true. Why would the councillors not want to share that information? Instead they would want to derive some sort of plan for the future to make sure they can have a counter-attack. And if they couldn't do this then I'm sure they would want to tell those who are still alive the complete truth. So I find that hard to believe.

Truth doesn't advance the technology...
If it is destroyed.. It has to go full cycle to be re-discovered...

They may know the "truth" or their version of the "truth"... But they have to rebuild the Zion from what Architect calls "eradication"

One could assume that Zion was a surviving pre-machine rebellion city, and the technology was there all along. Except that the machines destroy it every iteration of the Matrix. So that theory is out.

Or one could argue that "Zion" is simply a name humans give to whatever place that hosts the resistance to the machines. It's more of a metaphor than a place. There may be many "Zions" [underground bomb shelters, perhaps] waiting to be activated.

Of course, none of this is explained in the movies.

Gnostic wrote:

One could assume that Zion was a surviving pre-machine rebellion city, and the technology was there all along. Except that the machines destroy it every iteration of the Matrix. So that theory is out. Or one could argue that "Zion" is simply a name humans give to whatever place that hosts the resistance to the machines. It's more of a metaphor than a place. There may be many "Zions" [underground bomb shelters, perhaps] waiting to be activated. Of course, none of this is explained in the movies.

Both very good points. I think the first is one that can best explain what is going on.

Omega wrote:

Truth doesn't advance the technology... If it is destroyed.. It has to go full cycle to be re-discovered... They may know the "truth" or their version of the "truth"... But they have to rebuild the Zion from what Architect calls "eradication"

Which is why they would have to build Zion from the ground up. It would take a long time.

Zion was far more advanced than our civilization...
It will take a LONG time to rebuild it every time... Unless you get help from the System : )

omega wrote:

I agree... But how many years or centuries would it take to develop technology in Zion to such a level (without the help of the machines)?

Could it be possible that the new version of people in zion just salvage and learn from the previous technology and advance on that?

Apocryphe wrote:

Everyone assume that the previous reloads took 100 years too. This is not necessary true. It seems that this version of the anomaly is very powerfull and different from the previous ones. Since the anomaly is related to the number of people who refused the program, we could tell that this version was much longer than the others. My feeling is that the previous reloads occured every 20 years (the first script said that the matrix was occuring between 1980 and 2000). But with Neo, they had to change the datum of the Matrix several times without seeing a single "One", wich is why Neo is so powerfull now. Thus, I think that the Matrix is around 200 years old.

I have alwasy thought that the zion period or cycle was 100 years, beacuse of the fact that the one destined to find the one, has to find him, this could take many years or even many generations. which then would work into the timeline of the destruction of Zion etc. etc. and so-forth .

But i am very interested in hearing how you came up with 200 years for each cycle Apocryphe.

think of technology this way:

If primitive humans were to discover some piece of our-day technology would they know what to do with it?
Probably not...

You need continuity of technology... Someone needs to know ins and outs of technology before it can be applied efficiently...
It would take hundreds of years to rebuild Zion every time...

Unless the architect helps them...

Neo and Omega, I do agree with both of you. I think most of your arguments support my initial theory.

omega wrote:

So how old is the matrix 1000 years old? 2000? 3000? Or more? Was humanity ever free?

Thinking about your statement omega, I think that at one time the human race was free. They must have in order to build the first AI.

omega wrote:

You need continuity of technology... Someone needs to know ins and outs of technology before it can be applied efficiently... It would take hundreds of years to rebuild Zion every time... Unless the architect helps them...

I agree exactly. If the engineering/electronic/programming knowledge is one download away it makes the possibility of getting Zion kickstarted pretty easy. After all, Zion is the architect's haven for the disgruntled, he does not want it shutting down for good!


To me it is really just a matter of looking at the evidence. There are a few Zionites that appear same aged or older than some on the council. (I'm thinking of the crowd waiting with offerings) So, some or all of the council are not first generation. Plus if the events of the last reboot were closer you would not have a faction that was opposed to the oracle... because the story of the One would be fresh in all minds.

So although 100 years is arbitrary for the last cycle it sounds acceptable with a little increase (10-20 years?) for each preceeding cycle to account for the improving skill of the machine army.

The length of each cycle could be increased or decreased dramaticly based on the family planning practices of Zion... Then again those temple orgies must have served some non-cinematic purpose!

omega wrote:

think of technology this way: If primitive humans were to discover some piece of our-day technology would they know what to do with it? Probably not... You need continuity of technology... Someone needs to know ins and outs of technology before it can be applied efficiently... It would take hundreds of years to rebuild Zion every time... Unless the architect helps them...

The One would show them. remember when the arcitect say's to Neo that he has to choose 16 male and 7 females from the matrix to rebuild zion.

So my theory is this, that Neo is the one that shows the new inhabidents of zion how the technology works. so basiclly Neo is the 16th+1 male to help rebuild zion.