»Religion? An illusion. A matrix?«

omega wrote:

Christians, muslims, jews - they are all the same... Claiming that they are special...

Buddhism: the Buddha actively encouraged his followers to DISCUSS and try to poke holes in what he taught. He told them not to believe him, but to use his teacings as a method to find out for themselves.

I think we require a definition of "organised religion" from you before this gets nasty, please.

omega wrote:

But I am not an atheist.

Athiesm is defined as to not believe in the existance of God. So you do? You believe in God while condemning religion to the (metaphysical) flames?

Comet,
I beleive that noone knows the truth. Noone...
Every religion may have a seed of rationality inside, but a ton of bullshit around it...


Buddha claimed to be special too...

omega wrote:

Buddha claimed to be special too...

Did he? Find me a quote.

The Buddha refused to answer questions about himself because he didn't want people to get obsessed with him. He prefered to ease the suffering of the people he met.

Yeah.. That's why they have this whole ritual with his reincarnation...
Because he is not special...

Then tell me what is special then... If not his reincarnation...

omega wrote:

Yeah.. That's why they have this whole ritual with his reincarnation... Because he is not special... Then tell me what is special then... If not his reincarnation...

No one said today's Buddhism was the way the Buddha wanted it.

People need leaders. For Buddhists, the leader is the Dali Lama.

...who is not the Buddha's reincarnation.

No this is not what I meant:

See below:

Touché.

I stand by my post - No one said today's Buddhism was the way the Buddha wanted it.

Stand by what you want to stand by... Think what you want to think...

Just remember, you might be wrong...

As soon as people start creating a "religion" they screw it up... No exceptions...

omega wrote:

Stand by what you want to stand by... Think what you want to think... Just remember, you might be wrong...

I say the same to you.

Oh, i am fuly aware of it.
Just like Russell Bertrand said:

I will never die for my beleifs, because I might be wrong...

omega wrote:

Oh, i am fuly aware of it. Just like Russell Bertrand said: I will never die for my beleifs, because I might be wrong...

I might be wrong, but I thought it was Bertrand Russel.

You are right, sorry
Cutting and pasting mishap while editing my message

omega wrote:

"If someone tells you that they know the truth, run, run for your life... No one has a clue..."[/color]

you hit the nail on the head with that quote.

*****Disclaimer****
THis is gonna be long, i just had to get it out of my head and see it in writing.

Between zion and the people still plugged-in all of them are human. Humans are very susceptible to being controlled, especially when it comes to the routines of life. We are very circular creatures and can get caught up in daily life just trying to survive. It is at this point that we can be taken advantage of. Our own nature used against us by those who are aware of how our minds work. To know how the human mind works is power! Human nature forces us to obey predefined laws that are hardwired into our brains.

Take for example 'the law of conformity'. It states that we are more likely to follow something if someone else is doing it. Just imagine how powerful that one law is (there are plenty more). It effects everything from cultures, the legal system, and music genres, down to peer pressure. this is just a fraction of the reason of why religion (the ultimate seduction and control) has prospered. And being conscious of these many things is what seperates you from rest of the population. Once you build your consciousness up to where you are aware of all these things you cant be taken advantage of. This is why if i was plugged into 'the matrix' the machines would've already dumped me into the sewers; hopefully a ship would've picked me up.

I hate being controlled, but i (we) can't really escape it . The man-made controls you might be able to escape; and/or see past. However the controls of this planet combined with our own human nature you cant escape all control. Sometimes i feel like a ball of energy ready to burst. i feel trapped here. I'm constantly wondering what is after this? There has to be something. Anyway, i started rambling there (i guess that was 'hope' talking). Back to my point/comment . In a way we are all in a matrix, not necessarily a computer program but an environment where things are really planned out for us from the day we are born. We are all victims of cause and effect. No one really has 'choice' or free will. It IS an illusion. the "choices" we make are based on past experiences. In addition, choices are created for us by people in power. And as long as we have "choices" all around us we're lulled asleep.

Now as for zion, they were lacking in the departement of consciousness. they were unaware of the truth because the machines (the powerful) never gave them a chance to figure it out. the humans were too busy fighting a war for surival. on top of that you have the oracle "guiding" them and giving them hope. there was never any chance for them. that is why i say they were in their own matrix. it just wasn't a computer program, however everything was calculated and allowed to take its course. it kept working, and it would still be working if it wasnt for the agent smith problem and neo not realizing what he had to do. We (humans) are so easy; easier than a lot of us think. All it took was a little hope in a "messiah" and cause and effect and we were in an endless loop of loops . Control is a bitch!

SO, to sum this long ass post up i feel we are all in a matrix, not necessarily a computer program. just my thoughts. if you read through this whole thing thanks for checkin it out.

7one wrote:

I am a free-thinker, but you'll either think i'm a buddisht or hindu. But i don't follow everything. I just like the phillosophy of those religions. Just like the matrix. It's the phillosophy they're tryng to point out. Not asking you to believe. We should believe in ourselves instead. Peace.

well put

beyond_comprehension wrote:

omega wrote: It were humans who wrote the Bible, not God. It were humans who were spreading the Bible, not God. It is humans who run the church, not God... It is humans who are trying to impose their "moral values" on humanity, not God... It is humans who "value life" protesting against abortions and cheering for death penalty, not God... It is humans who pay for bombs to bomb Iraq, not God... I beleive that our planet as well as the Universe are not constant. Everything evolves... If there is a fundamental rule in this world - its name is CHANGE. Humans are absolutely insignificant in the order of things... They are an anomaly... This book may have all the answers YOU need to know. I need to know much more. I will try to learn as much as I can until I die... If i can't separate myself physically from the humans, I will do so intellectually... How can one book satisfy your hunger for knowledge? Unfortunately, Hitler's words do stand. He was a monster and unfortunately a smart one too... He portraid lies as truth, ignorance as bliss and also claimed to have all the answers, he did write a book too... Fortunately for us, there are Russians, who got rid of the monster... So you think you're living for the purpose of knowing more? And for what? I mean we're gifted with a certain degree of intelligence so that we can view things in logic to help us comprehend certain things which we should understand in life. We're gifted with the hunger for knowledge so that we can continuously improve our standard of life. I do not think anyone will get far in trying to discover the purpose of life. So why not get on with it? Get on with life. What is the point of pondering over something that is simply beyond your comprehension?

i agree with both of you i want to know the truth and find the purpose of life, but then i know to know everything is not possible and just to live life to the fullest before you die. im torn.

I hate to say this, but there is something that gives you freedom...
It's money...

omega wrote:

I hate to say this, but there is something that gives you freedom... It's money...

i agree. money will set you free but then what happens after that. say you have all the money in the world. you've slept with as many girls as you could, and partied your life out, had kids. in the end what was it all really about?

this is life in its simplest form:
we're born
we learn
we do
we screw
then we die

and your kids do the same thing over and over. for what is what i ask

There are no guarantees in life... You can spend your whole damn life in a monastery and still be not an inch closer to enlightment than the rich party guy...

Money is hardly productive of freedom. It grants the appearance of freedom, nothing more.

I imagine (but I do not know) Bertrand Russell said that (the quote Omega used) sometime after 1901, when he discovered the logical naive set theory paradox that bears his name.

Quote:

Russell's paradox is the most famous of the logical or set-theoretical paradoxes. The paradox arises within naive set theory by considering the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. Such a set appears to be a member of itself if and only if it is not a member of itself, hence the paradox. Some sets, such as the set of all teacups, are not members of themselves. Other sets, such as the set of all non-teacups, are members of themselves. Call the set of all sets that are not members of themselves "R." If R is a member of itself, then by definition it must not be a member of itself. Similarly, if R is not a member of itself, then by definition it must be a member of itself. Discovered by Bertrand Russell in 1901, the paradox has prompted much work in logic, set theory and the philosophy and foundations of mathematics. plato.stanford.edu...

I still can't quite wrap my mind around that. The very fact that I understand that it must be so, but don't understand why or how it works, leads me subtly toward doubt of all my efforts to interpret the evidence of the world around me, which is a sensation so profound, it might indeed lead me to epigrammatically declare my doubt, just as the late Nobel Prize winner (for literature) did.

It is this exact sort of paradox that is money. Money appears to grant us freedom if, and only if, we have it. That sounds too easy, but I don't mean the more money you have, the more free you appear -- I mean the economy itself is the issue.

Today's economy (though I don't pretend to be an economist, nor an economic expert of any kind) is very much a kind of control. When we have enough money, we appear to be free within the confines of the economy. We are, however, still trapped inside this system of control.

When you have Money, (captial letter meaning 'enough money never to need to worry about money again') you can get pretty much anything you want... except love and happiness, apparently, if you believe old wives and old songs. The thing is, the old wives (and the old songs) really have something there. Love and happiness cannot be bought or sold, only given freely. (cf. 'the eyes of the Oracle'?) So, for such things, money is useless. The economy does not touch them--though they do have quite a few off-brand, inferior copies on the market.

Without the economy we have, and the money that drives it, we might truly be free. In this respect, economies, just like religions, are a kind of Matrix (a fact which, while it seems to have gotten away from us somewhat even though it was the original topic, also seems to have been pretty much agreed upon by a fair majority here, I think).

Money is not the goal, but it's pass, a ticket, a key
It opens many doors... Many of which are hidden from naive eyes...
Money lets you escape the routine of working for the system...
Let's you break the cycle...

But it is also a mean to "enslave" most of humanity...

Sorry this seems to address another issue. [Money is the "way"...]

Having or not having Money hardly can be an answer... if you really know what having MONEY is, or from my view of seeing it... one could not have The Money but still be happy and accept everything as it is while being happy for what they have and not crying for what they don't have.
On the other hand one could have The Money but won't sleep trying to get more of it, trying to figure out why Slackware doesn't hang as much as XP and trying to hide source codes of their "stuff" so it's pretty hard for money to get you there.
I think of freedom as death [sorry, and don't think am sucidal or really happly waiting for it] but whether we accept or not, there is only one way out of all this mess and slavery and that is it [or maybe getting unpluged]. [of course depending on where you are heading to that is if anywhere] for example as IEMan99 put it

Quote:

this is life in its simplest form: we're born we learn we do we screw then we die

but look at all those "simple forms" they to hang meaning there is still more depending on the choices then which has already been noted as slavary it's self, but there is only one only one form that hits the end no more demands, expectation or whatever, it's done it's freedom...

Lastly I don't know if you guys have read David Icke's THE BIGGEST SECRET ? Well if you have let me know what you think of it and if you haven't still look for it and let me know what you think or pay me to scan it for you lol.

Suicide is painless...
It brings on many changes...

Money is not the answer, but it will help you do what you really want to do, let you concentrate on the things you want to spend your time on and not waste your time working for someone else.

If you want to travel - you can travel...
If you want to create - you can create...
If you want to have sex - you can have sex...
etc.

Doing what you love, can possibly let you find out who you really are - the ultimate question...

How can you even try to understand the world around you, if you don't understand yourself?

Omega, you're still only talking about freedom within a system of control. Without the economy--the system that money drives--you could have all the money in the world (in which case, if it were true, there would be no economy anyway) and it would be useless. You would have no more freedom than anyone else.

Money can be a powerful ally in this world, as long as there is reason for money to exist--because it will exist for as long as it can. But money is not the way to freedom... it is only a way to feel free in the midst of a form of bondage.

In the movies, prisoners often trade cigarettes for other goods or services (like protection) just like cash. Without access to this economy, a prisoner will have a much rougher time in the joint. But does greater access to this economy really bring greater freedom? No. You're still in the slammer, no matter how much contraband, or how many allies you have. Sure, you can do more things, but you're still not free.

Money is not a way to freedom, because money is inherently binding. If you use it, you are bound to its rules, and there is not much chance of not using it in this world. If that's not analogous to the Matrix, I must have the meaning wrong (but I don't).

omega wrote:

Doing what you love, can possibly let you find out who you really are - the ultimate question... How can you even try to understand the world around you, if you don't understand yourself?

I'm afraid you are mistaken here, as well, Omega. That is to say, rather, your question is somewhat incomplete.

I tend to agree with most of what you say about religion, actually.... I think it is (just like the economy) a kind of Matrix for us in this world, and we very well might be ultimately better off without it. However, we cannot just get rid of it without replacing it with something else, something that serves a similar function of awakening the spiritual side of Man. Unfortunately, many religions fail even in this. But take it away entirely, and you also take away the very basest of functions religion has: moral teaching. I shudder to imagine what a world that would be, without at least some moral value structure.

The sign above the Oracle's door says, 'Know Thyself' in Latin. The Oracle of Apollo at Delphi also bore this inscription--in Greek, of course--and it is capitalized for a reason. The Initiates of the Mysteries believed (and still do) that we are all part of the One, the Mystery, and we are trying to understand Our Self. Therefore, 'Knowing Thyself' has a much greater meaning than your limited definition above allows. It also indicates that--contrary to your question above--in order to 'Know Our Self' we must try to understand the world around us, because it IS Our Self--All is One.

So the question now becomes: How can you even try to understand Yourself if you don't understand the world around us? ...Paradoxically, however, your question is not rendered moot by this; your question is not actually wrong, at all, only incomplete.