»Religion? An illusion. A matrix?«

This may have already been a post, however, if it was, I never saw it, so let's reinvigorate some theories here.
I'm an agnostic, and I now view religion in general as an overall institution(Marx), a system in place that is meant to defend a person from natural human concern. Does religion apply directly to the correlation of 'faith' and Cyphers words, "Ignorance is bliss." I can't help but see that religion has been a corrupted matrix...an illusory concept that has begun to corrupt mankind from the basis of our delusion.
More so, does "faith," in religion correlate with a "matrix," or false reality that we live by? Do we strive so hard to not deny the truth that we are alone in the world that we, subsequently, create something to satisfy our concerns and provide us with an illusory comfort?

"Religion is the opium of the masses."

At the time that was written opium was a drug with uses as well as being a drug that is often abused. Marx is claiming that religion is intended to calm the masses. Marx was still of the opinion that religion was linked to social injustice and this bad side outweighed its good, but even so 'opium of the masses' is not necessarily a bad aspect of religion.

The Matrix thinks very highly of religion. Remember when Neo goes to see Seraph. There are stalls filled with images from all the various religions. It is showing various people finding ways to understand the truth which underlies their world. Then we see Seraph and he is engaged in a religious practice! Meditation.

For me this scene shows more explicitly than ever that the matrix is an analogy for religion. The Zionists have discovered a truth which they will fight to protect because it is more important than life. That is what religious truth is like.

I though Seraph was drinking a cup of tea!

Oh well

FAR FAR to heavy for a friday!

Some say that drugs and alcohol are a way to deal with reality. Some would say that they are used to negate the actuality of reality (justifiable suicide). Which option does 'faith' correspond with, the former, or the latter.
oh and Fatpie...thanks for mentioning the opening scene with Seraph, I think that's a crucial part of the movie. However, religion may be highly revered in the movie, but it still goes to show how self-deceptive and delusional humans naturally are. The Matrix trilogy is enveloped by religious context that flows throughout the movies, however, I don't recall anything serious about religion specifically mentioned.
Are we saying that the machines created religion; the machines gave us our "opium for the masses" to satisfy humans in a delusion that was contingent upon faith? Or is religion still a human idea. Oh....and is Seraph some unitarian universalist, or is there something more there?

Seraph is a kickass fighter, not to mention extremely hot.

But on topic...

Religion itself is a Matrix? *snorts* Bullshit. Some people believe in a higher power, some don't. Fine, hooray, yippy skippy, let's move on.

Now, I can see where religion might become a Matrix for some people coughcoughfundiescoughcough but there are many others who, while taking their religion seriously, do not allow themselves to be blinded by it.

Humans are indeed self-deceptive and delusional, but hell, it doesn't all come from religion! Come on, look at the current sue-happy American culture. Oh, looky me, I've smoked for years and by golly, I'm sick! I think I'll sue a tobacco company because it's their fault for making those cigarettes I smoked at a rate of a pack a day for thirty yeard! My lawyer said it was a good idea!

Also -- meditation is not necessarily a religious practice. It is a way of clearing/calming the mind and the body. It can be used for religious purpose, true, but it can also be used to keep from spazzing out before finals. ^_^

Quote:

The Zionists have discovered a truth which they will fight to protect because it is more important than life. That is what religious truth is like.

Yup, but it can be taken too far. Would I die for my beliefs? Damn straight. Would I die for someone else's beliefs? Also yes -- or rather, seeing as I'm in America, I would die for their right to believe what they want. Would I die to kill others who don't believe what I do? Hell, no!

Rosco, you brought up Cypher's comment that 'ignorance is bliss'. How does ignorance come into religion? And I don't mean the fundie branch of any religion. Perhaps faith sprang from the human fear of death -- dying isn't so bad if there's something better ahead, right? -- and the unknown. Perhaps not.

The universe is so wacky, though, it can't be entirely random. I believe that the universe was created, and I respect those who disagree with this. A large part of faith should be acceptance of other opinions and beliefs.

Rosco, you bring up good points, especially when you ask if we mean that the machines created religion -- they did start the cycle of the One, after all, and Reloaded made it clear that there is some serious Neo-worship going on.

(pun unintentional)

In closing of this slightly-incoherant post, I'll reiterate that I do not believe religion is a Matrix unless one makes it their Matrix. Thank you. I'll shut up now.

*gets off soap box*

Side note: Hey, Rosco, I owe you some thanks, pal. Your topic dragged me out of a bad mood. *grins* Any time you want to debate me on the subject of religion, drop me an IM. I like a healthy debate.

I incorporate Cypher's statement to that of a faith that is contingent upon a religion's decree, and religion's comforting promise to a reward in the 'afterlife.' I think the faith route corresponds with the ignorant bliss route. I'm not suggesting that what one has faith in is not truth. Who's to say.
Tell you what. I'm taking a coures called "values analysis" and we have a messageboard forum where we debate certain issues. That is where I proposed this thought experiement:

Quote:

I want to know how far one is willing to go for truth. Say that you are given options, one is that all truth will be revealed to you; everything in existence explained, purpose, everything. However, with this option, when you die, that's it, there's no more for you (I'm aware that be it the source that is offering this truth determines alot, but let's exclude the fact that if God is offering you this option, then you're quite possibly a fool for accepting the first option). Now, the other option. You are promised that there's a 50%, as in it is or it isn't, that simple chance that faith through a religion is truth. Assuming that with this 50/50 chance if you're right then your religion that promises salvation and eternal life will be given to you. So, ultimately, here's the dilemma. Do you seek the ultimate truth but with the promise of death(certain death)? Or do you remain grounded in a faith with the chance that eternal life through this religion is promised or not, it's a 50/50 chance (possible life[after death]). Is there the smuggled sense of egoism that follows with the person who chooses option 2? Does choosing option 1 smuggle the sense that you were never secure in your stance on things, does it reveal your apprehension on life and truth(obviously if you're agnostic)? How do you weigh the options? How desperate are you for truth? Willing to lay, possibly eternal life on the line? Which do you choose?"

It's in this thought experiment that I see faith as paralleled with the ignorance route.
so, which option do you choose? It's a tought question especially for agnostics and struggling christians, however, after some serious considerations, I decided to go with the ultimate truth in option 1.

Could the same be said for the Matrix. I think Neo was clearly agnostic. He didn't accept the system. Religion could essentially parallel this theory. The religious matrix theory could stand as follows: Majority of the people are not ready for the truth; they won't accept it. They've become so hooked to the system (religion) that they will essentially fight to protect it. And what's crazy is we do! We fight all the time for our religious beliefs.

Rosco,

Please see my post:
I have briefly touched the topic of religion there.

matrix-explained.com...

Fatpie,

If I understand it correctly, Seraph is a program, therefore I am not sure how can he meditate.... Plus I am not sure meditation qualifies as a religious practice, rather more of a "gymnastic for the mind and soul".

Zionists have not discovered the truth... They accepted someone else's ideas and thoughts as the "truth". Does it make those ideas correct? I am not sure...
And why is their idea more important than life?
You know what Bertrand Russell said?
"I will never die for my beleifs, because I might be wrong..."
Nice idea for the Zionists... And all of us in general...

In my opinion religion and the matrix protect you from looking for truth. They make sure you don't act. Religion promises you salvation, next life, etc. Just so you don't do anything in this life...
You probably will never find it... But it is much better to die looking than to exist accepting someone else's rotten ideas...
No one knows anything... No one has a clue about the truth...

For the most part, Omega, I agree with you, in terms of the movie of course. I like to go off tangents and hear more personal opinions rather than theories of how questions relate directly to the matrix movies. I think part of this ignorance in religion is a large part of our lack of intelligence.
However, your ending statements sound essentially hopeless. I wouldn't go so far as to claim another's beliefs as "rotten," unless of course I could prove that their beliefs were irrefutably impossible to be true.
Are you saying that humans are simply ignorant and the majority lack intelligence, so, therefore, the machines didn't even have to worry about us as far as our level of intelligence goes? Well... Okay, I can agree with that, seems pretty concrete...but sure.

wake wrote:

I though Seraph was drinking a cup of tea! Oh well FAR FAR to heavy for a friday!

Nice point. Actually monks often will have a cup of tea with them when they meditate. It was true of the monks I lived with in India. Seraph is in a meditating postion and takes a sip of tea as Neo comes in.

Rosco:

I deliberately used the word "rotten".
Organized religion was important at the early stages of the development and survival of mankind. It was bringing communities together and contributed to the development of basic science (calendars in Egypt etc.).

But at least for the last 2000 years religion contributed to so much hate, violence, death, tortute, destruction, and most importantly fear.
One can be certain that we are farther from the truth that we were 2000 years ago. More importantly religion provides nothing but blind, naked hope. Hope stripped to the bone...

Is there a religion that encourages critical thinking? Is there a religion that openly says that noone has a clue?

--------------------

Man's thinking is both rational and irrational. That's why machines do have to worry about humans...
How can you explain a suicide bomber to a machine?

The Zionists DO know the truth. They know that the world of the matrix is an illusion and that humans trapped within it are controlled by malevolent machines.

The problem is that while they know 'what' the matrix is, they don't fully understand 'why' the matrix is. It is this knowledge which ends in the peace deal made between Neo and the machines.

However, the point is that after the first movie the zionists will do whatever they have to in order to free others from the matrix. They will gladly die for the greater good. They look forward to a better time when all humans shall be freed from the matrix and the machines will be destroyed. In this way, they are like religious fundamentalists.

At the end of the third movie there is a greater understanding of the matrix's history, hopefully leading to a more peaceful Zionist message.

The Zionists Think they know the truth...
But do they really know what the truth is? We realise that when Architect talks about it. Remember what Neo said to him: "either nobody told me or nobody knows".
Zionists are full of themselves thinking they are in control, while Neo's every step is guided by the Oracle.
She chooses what the truth it for the Zionists. She chooses what to tell them...
The goal of Zionists is to stop the War. And it is Neo's goal. Freeing the people is not the goal but the means toward winning the war...
The truth of the ZIon is in the hands of one program: Oracle... So how can they possibly know the truth?
And more importantly, how can they know the truth if they don't know that there were 6 Zions before them?

They've seen the fields with their own eyes! They've seen the desert of the real. They've seen Zion.

Most importantly they've seen the real world.


That's the truth they talk about. The real truth as opposed to the fakeness of the matrix.

But as you notice in the sequels, there is more to the truth than meets the eye.

The Zionists only saw what was shown to them... They only do what they are told...
I am not a matrix within the matrix idea supporter, but still:
How can they prove Zion is real? Greek philosophers were battling with this question 2000 years ago, and Zionists recognised that the Zion is real.

Why? Because it involves pain and suffering and it appeals so much to humans? Because they are poor and dirty? Because they have to slave their whole lives for some "idea"?

I came to one conclusion: matrix and zion are one and same: both are the prison for the mind and body. Matrix is the prison for obvious reasons and still you can be all you want to be in it. Zion is the prison, because once you are there - there is no escaping it besides death. And it is the prison for the mind because they have only 1 idea and everyone blindy follows it and there is no room for an intelligent discussion...

What is truth? What is fake?

I will always remember the advice I read in a book once:

"If someone tells you that they know the truth, run, run for your life... No one has a clue..."

Hi Fatpie42. Just poped in to say i'm with you on this.

I posted something else about belief vs. knowledge, somewhere... i don't recall where now. The gist was basically this: some believe, some know. If you don't know what to believe, you're on the right track toward knowing; questioning is important to growth--belief can hinder growth, if it does not allow inquiry.

matrix-explained.com... are (quite) a few more thoughts on the matter I just posted on another thread, especially in regards to the Marx quote. In case you're curious.

Either way, we are presented with the facts that the Matrix is the illusion and Zion is the real!

From the unplugged characters point of view, therefore ours, Zion is real!

I shall try to qualify why I know this!

Lets look at the facts and information from my point of view:

WE have worked out that Neo's purpose is to die!
However he dies, he is still meant to die!
Had Smith Bane had have killed him aboard the Logos the war would still have come to an end!
Just in a different way!

"IF" Zion were a "Matrix" sub routine then why do the machines bother to Dig?
IF Zion were in the Matrix why not just have the Deus-Ex unplug all the Zion Residents? That would be so much more efficient!

According to the "Architect" Neo's purpose, from his perspective, is to return to Zion and pick a certain number of people to re-populate it after the machines have killed everyone else!

However Neo does not do that, a decision that I believe the Architect does not understand, even though he comprehends the emotion of love!

Neo believes there is another way! The true quality of a reluctant leader!

After the whole shebang of the dock fight, Neo asks Deus-Ex for Peace.

Remember that from "The Second Renaissance" All the machines want is peace in the first place.

Instantly the machines stop their attack.

During the Oracle and Archi dialogue when Archi says he shall free those who choose to be freed, he says it with a certain dissatisfaction.
That leads me to believe that is not what he wants but is willing to do so in the interest of peace, as instructed to by the Deus-Ex.

If Zion were Still in the Matrix Archi would not be bothered!

But he is bothered!

Therefore Zion is indeed real!

The biggest piece of evidence, as I have already stated, is that the machines have to dig to get to Zion and kill people in the real world! Sentinels do not exist in the Matrix. Or at least we never see any in the Matrix.

I hope that makes sense!

wake wrote:

From the unplugged characters point of view, therefore ours, Zion is real! I shall try to qualify why I know this!

Who are you explaining to? Didn't you know matrix-within-a-matrix theorists are rare on this forum.

We are talking about the matrix as a parody of religious belief. (Or the nature of the beliefs of the Zionists and their concept of 'truth' if you want to take the story more literally).

What war? There is no war, except the war of words...
Do we see the war? Any war scenes in the movie? What threat are the Zinosits to the machines? What can they do to them? Machines can destroy Zion at will... And they did it before..

Think!
Machines already won. They imprisoned humanity. (If it ever was free).
What can Zionists do? Neo is their best and only weapon.
Machines are digging for one reason - to provoke Zionists and Neo to act a certain way and to follow the algorithm set up by the Oracle...

Zionists need to live in constant Fear otherwise they know that there is nothing to their existense - they are rats living in the sewer.


Remember, Matrix is older than you think...
Did you ever think about it?

Not a 100 years old.. Oh no...
Even Mirovingian is from the "Older" version of Matrix with very ancient motives...
So were humans ever free?

Annaerullo, you really are a Gem of a Dude! Just read your link. What you wrote is SO good, revealing and on the ball. Concise, clear and to the point. Words of wisdom indeed. Thank you for taking the time. I found it personaly helfull and encouraging.

Fantastic.

(Gonna link it to future posts that are relavent)

Fatpie42 wrote:

wake wrote: From the unplugged characters point of view, therefore ours, Zion is real! I shall try to qualify why I know this! Who are you explaining to? Didn't you know matrix-within-a-matrix theorists are rare on this forum. We are talking about the matrix as a parody of religious belief. (Or the nature of the beliefs of the Zionists and their concept of 'truth' if you want to take the story more literally).

Damn I must have been sleep writing!
I'm sure there was a really good reason i wrote that, I just can't remember it at the moment!

You flatter me, really. I don't mean to call a meeting of the Mutual Admiration Society here, but I have to say, coming from you, I consider what was said very high praise, indeed. ...'nuff said.

I'm with Archangel on this: the Matrix cannot be considered a religion, thus:

- Religion is a system of belief.
- Coppertops do not know the Matrix exists.

Therefore:
= Coppertops do not believe in the 'Matrix' (as it exists to the Machines)...
... therefore it cannot be classed as a religion

Discuss (24 marks).

The matrix is not a religion. Of course not. There are no deities, no ethical systems, no symbolic rituals. All there is, is the prophecy of hope.

However, there can be seen to be an allegorical connection between the faith placed by the zionists in the prophecy and the faith placed by religious people in their own doctrines.

The zionists are shown a view of the world where they see that the world they have been living in is fake and meaningless. Meanwhile they are shown Zion, the last place where humans may comfortably settle on the Earth.

Human life is seen as secondary to the truth of Zion and the slavery in the matrix.