»Intelligence«

Re: EqUiLiBriuM

People became more powerful than God or than the Creator?
Thnka about this for a while....

Did God create us? Does this have to be true?
Could the God be adopted?
Could have God adopted us?

Re: annaerullo

First, yes, when I say that no one's opinion is to be trusted I mean it. That means don't trust me just because I said so... Question everything... If you come to the same conclusions that I did, very well then. If not, well, then you came to your own conclusions... Which is even better...

If somebody tells you that they know the truth, run, run for your life... No one has a clue...

Second... If you are upset living in Iowa, then think how I feel living in Nebraska? I feel like I am surrounded with walking zombies around here...
I, personally, don't have too much respect for humanity... We can be so much more, but I also think that our animal roots will always interfere with our development as posthumans... We will always remain mammals with above average intelligence (in the animal world).

I am not the big fan of Nietzsche, but some of his thinking deserves a lot of merit.
"Man is a rope, fastened between animal and overman — a rope over an abyss... What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal"...

I also beleive that the endless path for truth is to be travelled alone...
I think that everyone must make it out on their own...

According to the Second Renaissance the human "created the machines in their own image". Completely same frase as in the bible, when god created man.
This reference clearly states that man has grown as powerfull as god (and according to ancient greek religion, they have commited hybris and nemesis will strike them, the vengeance of gods will smite them).

And when I say god, I mean the creator or the maker of existence (not that I am religious, though) and he has therefore by definition created us.
Hence if the current god adopted us, he would not be the true creator and the term meet your maker would not make any sense...

Everything is relative. Including intelligence.

There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom. Many intelligent people are intelligent in their own way. In the end you'll realize that intelligence is an illusion, once you realize how irrelevant it is. WHY would someone want to know EVERYTHING?

Intelligence has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with knowledge...what you refer to is wisdom or insight...and I believe it is the greatest goal a human can ever accomplish...

omega wrote:

Re: El Escogido Smith definitelt didn't want to go back to the source... Because he would be back. His code will get dissemenated in the system and they will put him right back where he started. They will put him back for one reason: to fight Neo, who, also will be back after his code gets dissemenated in the system and he rebuilds the ZIon... Smith understands the cycle, that why he wants to destroy the system, so there is no more cycle... Neo didn't know crap... He saw things in his head... Ever wonder why? Was the system feeding him visions? Think!

Actually, when Neo got those visions in his head he had been unplugged from the matrix. He was having visions in his dreams while he was in Zion or on the Neb.

Neo gained strength and intelligence within the matrix. It was not pure luck that he ended up thinking and doing the things he did continually every time he jacked in. Just like Morpheus liked to preach to him, Neo learned and became smarter with experience.

re: EqUiLiBriuM

We didn't create the animals, but we sure act like we did...

Why do you think that someone couldn't have created us and then someone else took over as the "nanny"?

re: DeAdLy_cOoKiE ™

Please look at the post where I wrote about the definition of intelligence

_________________________________________
In my opinion, the word intelligence refers to a man's ability to gather and critically examine and analyze the information and facts.
It also implies that nothing is taken for granted and no opinions are beleived no matter by whom they are expressed.
_________________________________________

Intelligence doesn't mean you know everything, quote contrary - it means that you realise how little you really know...
Intelligence is not an illusion; you either have it or you don't...

re: El Escogido

You are talking about one of the most controversial episodes in the trilogy... Depending on how you look at the facts, you can make different conclusions, here is mine:

a) Neo saw the path to machine city extremely clearly... He wasn't trying to imagine it, he was watching more of a "video feed".

b) Same happened when Neo was seeing his girlfriend fall off the building and getting shot in the chest...

c) Oracle asked Neo about his dreams, she knew he is seeing what he is supposed to see...

I think that when Neo died in the first movie and came alive, he became, at least partially, a program. Architect does tell him that "...the process has altered your consciousness, but you are still a human". Or something of this nature...

Neo is not 100% Human... He knows what to do, not because he is smart... He knows because it is his job to know, just like any other program in the matrix...

Re: Omega

I dont cast away the theory of a "nanny" god taking care of the species of earth instead of the "real" god, who created us...

Im just pointing out, that the supreme being, which I would refer to as the true god would be the creating god (Lord Brahma in hinduism, the Father in christianity), not the "protecting" god (Vishnu, Jesus).
Quite true, the protecting god has godly status, but nonetheless that god is not the one, whom I would refer to as
the "real" god (and I am well aware of the fact, that the Father and Jesus are both part of the same trinity and therefore the same god, but my point remains the same)...

And i dont quite get your comments with humans/animals...are you implying, that god only acts as if he created us, because in that case, you have my answer above...

omega wrote:

I think that when Neo died in the first movie and came alive, he became, at least partially, a program.

I think Neo was/is part program anyway. Many things in the trilogy lead me to believe this.

re:EqUiLiBriuM

After analyzing the human behavior on this planet it is clear to me that the ultimate goal of a human is to become as powerful as God.
To become omnipotent...
It is quote obvious that the humanity is not even close to the level necessary. However, humans try to boss each other and they boss around animals. You have to see it for yourself, humans control the lives of pretty much any animal on this planet...

re:El Escogido
Well, He could have been a humanoid, but he died...
Like Smith said: "I killed you, Mr. Anderson. I watched you die..."
But then he came back to life... Probably as a program...
After this episode he started to fly, stop bullets and started bossing around the machines...

omega wrote:

Re: annaerullo First, yes, when I say that no one's opinion is to be trusted I mean it. That means don't trust me just because I said so... Question everything... If you come to the same conclusions that I did, very well then. If not, well, then you came to your own conclusions... Which is even better... If somebody tells you that they know the truth, run, run for your life... No one has a clue...

I agree with all that, except, that was not what I meant.... I was denouncing the taking of oneself too seriously, as well as supporting thinking for oneself. I do not believe that all my thoughts are even valid. I am sure I have made, and will make mistakes. I am sure that I will be forced to change my mind, not once, but many times in the future. In other words, I do not trust my own opinions any more than I trust anyone else's.

omega wrote:

... I am not the big fan of Nietzsche, but some of his thinking deserves a lot of merit. "Man is a rope, fastened between animal and overman — a rope over an abyss... What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal"...

I agree with you. I have a feeling that Nietzsche was (metaphorically, as it were, with my faith/drug idea) a recovering faithaholic who quit cold turkey. But I am sure that's just scratching the surface of who he really was, and there is much I have yet to learn about the man and his thoughts and writings.

omega wrote:

I also beleive that the endless path for truth is to be travelled alone... I think that everyone must make it out on their own...

Well, that may be true, but that doesn't mean we who search for the same thing can't help each other out, does it? You seem awfully cynical, omega. I admit, I can be sometimes, too... but everybody here (on these forums) is trying to reach the same goal, even though they [we] are all taking different paths to get there. My point is, I think you could stand to lighten up!

<ahem> Now, I agree that DeAdLy_cOoKiE sort of missed the point about intelligence. DeAdLy_cOoKiE, I believe, is confusing the word with the meaning of 'knowledge.' However, I am afraid you are mistaken in your understanding of the word 'intelligence,' as well.

omega wrote:

In my opinion, the word intelligence refers to a man's ability to gather and critically examine and analyze the information and facts. It also implies that nothing is taken for granted and no opinions are beleived no matter by whom they are expressed.

The problem here becomes apparent in the first three words of your 'definition': 'In my opinion'. That may be your opinion, but it is not the definition. A definition, by definition, is a meaning that is universally agreed upon, or, according to Webster: 'a formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, etc.' There are, of course, other meanings (definitions) of the word, subtleties of nuance; this is the one to which our conversation applies.

So your argument for your use of the word 'intelligence' to describe this idea, to my understanding, is flawed. I recommend finding another word, one that more accurately applies to your definition. In point of fact, I think you may have merely confused 'intelligence' with 'intellect.' To wit:

Webster's Unabridged wrote:

intellect: 1. the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge. 2. capacity for thinking and acquiring knowledge, esp. of a high or complex order; mental capacity. 3. a particular mind or intelligence, esp of a high order. 4. a person possessing a great capacity for thought and knowledge. 5. minds collectively, as of a number of persons or the persons themselves.

Look especially at definition #2. Isn't this the 'ability to gather and critically examine etc.'? But unfortunately, it does not imply 'that nothing is taken for granted etc.' or anything else, for that matter. You inferred this based on your opinion, or rather your idea, to which you mistakenly applied the word 'intelligence.'

However, I am afraid that in all of this, I have forgotten what the topic was originally about... Oh, yes, now I remember:

omega wrote:

I beleive that there is no need for the matrix to control the humans on this stage of the development of the humanity, simply because people are not smart enough. You have to face it - unfortunately, majority of the people lack intelligence. As long as intelligence and wisdom are not the absolute priority in people's lives, they will be controlled by the false ideals...

I am wondering... what prompted you to think about whether the machines (assuming they existed right now in our own Real World) would construct a matrix for us today? And though I have never been through Nebraska, I have a feeling that whatever ridiculous things people there do to harden your heart so and make you so cynical, the people in Iowa could at least give them a run for their money. You should come to Iowa City, especially; watch the snooty doctors and professors drive their sport utility vehicles, which are too large for them to handle, while talking on their cell phones, so they're not even paying attention, then they cut you off in traffic, and if you tootle your horn at them, they flip you the bird. Or watch as college students walk out into traffic against the traffic lights and look at you funny when you nearly run them over. Or see for yourself the dozens of ad signs and marquees with spelling errors on them--in a college town.

My point is, you have to believe (and I know this is blind faith, here, but like I said before, nearly all drugs have at least one benefit) that there are people out there not like this. All is not yet lost. There may be an unusual concentration of morons where you live, omega, but if you forget that it is still a minority in the greater scheme, you will grow cynical, and like Nietzsche, you will go mad. Believe it or not, Intellect is something every man, woman and child possesses. Some people don't bother to cultivate it, and that is a shame. But look outside your world, and you will see there is still honor to be found in Men, and potential for greatness. I liked your term, 'posthumans.' We'll get there. Don't lose hope.

i just wanted to point out a parallel in what annaerullo said

Quote:

Neo and Morpheus especially use faith to get them to the next plateau in their battle to cure their ignorance. The trick with faith is not to become addicted to it, but to be able to change your mind and your beliefs when they are challenged by logic and reason (NOT intelligence--remember, intelligence is the capacity for reason, not reason itself).

this is so true in the movie

we see in revolutions morpheus the believer of believers question the almighty oracle which he has confided in from day one.

Quote:

Morpheus: Oracle. Oracle: I know, Morpheus. I can see you're filled with doubt, clouded by uncertainty. Morpheus: After everything that's happened, how can you expect me to believe you? Oracle: I don't. I expect just what I've always expected. For you to make up your own damn mind. Believe me or don't. All I can really tell you is your friend's in trouble and he needs your help. He needs all our help.

morpheus WAS able to change his mind and beliefs but is still able to adhere to his faith, thus his internal power is derived in his faith AND intellegence just as annaerullo pointed out

omega wrote:

I also beleive that the endless path for truth is to be travelled alone... I think that everyone must make it out on their own...

I agree to an extent. I believe you get there alone, but there is no doubt in my mind you need others to guide and help you get there. Ultimately, it is up to you, but you always need others' help.

Re: annaerullo

I will always try to remember what Bertrand Russell said: "I will never die for my beleifs, because I might be wrong..."

If you happen to read something by George Soros, a man I greatly respect, he also talks about his own "fallability"... Only fools think that they are never wrong...

Nietzsche was never really a faithaholic, he was probably insane, but he did claim that when he was 5 he saw a vision of Zarathustra... The man about who he wrote one of his most famous works...

Re: The ONE-der Man

Morpheus had no choice but to do what Oracle told him...
Making up his mind meant exactly that...

re: El Escogido

Let me give you this example:

So many churches in our world try to invite you to join them, promising you to help you find god. Well 20 years later, you are still here - not any closer to god than before...

You do need other people's help... Just be concerned when they come offering it to you, even before you realize that you need it... It's a trick...